Could learning online work if..

[Brian R. VanCise]

There is in my opinion no way an instructor can provide adequate feedback to a student who is studying from their videos online. By the time they could do it the student probably has already ingrained bad habits. Take for instance I was teaching a student just the other day. We were working on a handgun disarm and I noticed as he was practicing it on me that he twice flashed his own bicep with the muzzle while doing the disarm. Done correctly this would not happen. I immediately told him what he was doing. I also showed to him what he was doing and how to correct it. We proceeded to train and he did not make that mistake again. No online sifu/instructor is going to be able to provide that kind of feedback even if they were doing the online training in real time. How can I say that? Well if you were not training with the person and looking at what he was doing from another angle you more than likely would have missed his mistake and he would have ingrained a very bad habit. I have mentioned before that I have had quite a few people come in and train after having learned a submission move. Unfortunately most of the time they learned it superficially with no depth or incorrectly. I then had to show them their mistake or where the holes in it are or how easily it is countered because of this mistake they have ingrained. Now I am not saying that you cannot learn some stuff provided you have a good base in the system you are working within and a real instructor that you are training with who can correct you. What I am saying is that if this is your choice in learning the Martial Sciences then be prepared for lots of bad habits, poor skills and probably a craptastic experience. It is much better to instead choose a real instructor, travel to them and or seminars and learn slowly with lots of corrections and hands on experience along the way! Hope that helps!

 

[StormShadow]

Certainly, which is why a good online program will provide multiple day bootcamps where you are touching hands with your sifu/sensi so bad habits don't last forever. As I mentioned before, I've seen poor skills from those in a regular kwoon as I have good skill. Saying all online students will have poor skills most likely is a fallacy in actuality. Granted some aspects greatly benefit from hand to hand contact with the sifu to ensure you are doing it correctly. I certainly agree with that. Again, for me it depends on the program and the level of interaction between students and your sifu whether or not we can label a format as crap, feasible or good.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The problem is once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it. We are going to agree to disagree here. If you want to do online training or worse teach that way that is your prerogative. Understand though that if you are learning you are probably learning poorly and the end result will more than likely be crap. If your teaching and accepting money for it well that is just not cool in my book. It's one thing to help your students out by having videos/online for them to study with regular and I mean weekly training that they can be corrected and get hands on feedback. It's totally different if someone is just throwing crap out into the world taking money and saying learn it without regular feedback. Just sayin........

 

[mograph]

StormShadow, I think your program is actually classified as "blended learning:" a combination of online and live (hands-on) instruction.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Brian, so I presume that your ok with with idea of regular weekly video conferencing classroom sessions? Provided there was a partner for each student present?

I'm not Brian but I am not ok with this at all unless the person in the room with you has a whole lot of experience, otherwise you are two people with not experience and no real training trying to learn together via video/Video conferencing. A teacher, a real one that cares about the art he is teacing anyway, has to be in the room to see in 3 dimensions and to feel and to demonstrate, at times, by feel.


But I think I am at the same place Brian is on all of this, and likely the same place as Flying Crane too

The problem is once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it. We are going to agree to disagree here. If you want to do online training or worse teach that way that is your prerogative. Understand though that if you are learning you are probably learning poorly and the end result will more than likely be crap. If your teaching and accepting money for it well that is just not cool in my book. It's one thing to help your students out by having videos/online for them to study with regular and I mean weekly training that they can be corrected and get hands on feedback. It's totally different if someone is just throwing crap out into the world taking money and saying learn it without regular feedback. Just sayin........

I agree fully with what Brian posted and I don't think I could have said it better than that

 

[StormShadow]

Yes hands on feedback is ideal. With an online program, likely not feasible. Certainly receiving hands on feedback every other month, every month, or every 6 months is not a hindrance to learning. Especially with intensive bootcamps can likely straighten things out that need be. If a sifu is genuine in intent by stepping into the 21st century to spread of the art of wing chun, then I say go for it. Wing chun is not a art like karate or mma where there is a school in every gym or every 10 miles. And if that said sifu is taking time away from his family to genuine interact, teach and correct his online students be it through live video or in person, I think he should be compensated unless money doesn't help sustain a person's livelihood anymore.

Alternatively, if said sifu just chucked up a bunch of vids and say pay me $60 per vid and you do not interact, speak with or see that sifu then likely everything you say stands. This is just how I view it. Also, if that sifu mentions you do not need a partner than that is also a red flag.

And honestly, there seems to be more effort involved in filming weekly lessons for an online program as opposed to teaching in class. You have to be percise in everything you do to convey as much information as possible. A reason why correction in a online program should be more intensive than in a regular school. And if the sifu cannot see from the video whether or not you are using proper form, he/she can always as you to make another with the appropriate angle.

So basically, we are going to have to agree to disagree as you've mentioned. Though, I agree with you on some points.

 

[yak sao]

The problem is once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it. We are going to agree to disagree here. If you want to do online training or worse teach that way that is your prerogative. Understand though that if you are learning you are probably learning poorly and the end result will more than likely be crap. If your teaching and accepting money for it well that is just not cool in my book. It's one thing to help your students out by having videos/online for them to study with regular and I mean weekly training that they can be corrected and get hands on feedback. It's totally different if someone is just throwing crap out into the world taking money and saying learn it without regular feedback. Just sayin........

When we were first learning the Character Two stance, our si-fu would go around to each one of us and physically make adjustments to each of our stances. Push in here, pull out there. Nudge our knees in or out with his feet...that sort of thing.
This went on for several weeks. It started out as gross adjustments and over time became fine tuning.
One of my classmates was having a hard time getting comfortable in the stance. Si-fu would come around and adjust his hips, push him this way and that, getting him into a proper stance and go on to the next person. As soon as si-fu turned his back on him, my classmate went back to what was comfortable for him, even though he was just physically placed into the proper stance.
This went on for weeks on end until one day, si-fu placed him in the proper stance and something "clicked", and he stayed put. Had he been doing this via video he never would have had that "aha" moment....or at the very least, the bad habit would have been so deeply ingrained it would have been next to impossible to overcome.

 

[Flying Crane]

The problem is once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it.

agreed, and I'll take it a step farther: there are a hundred little details that all add up to doing it well or not doing it well. Those little details just cannot be conveyed thru this medium. It's just not possible. It is limited to gross imitation, and that doesn't cut it.

 

[Flying Crane]

When we were first learning the Character Two stance, our si-fu would go around to each one of us and physically make adjustments to each of our stances. Push in here, pull out there. Nudge our knees in or out with his feet...that sort of thing.
This went on for several weeks. It started out as gross adjustments and over time became fine tuning.
One of my classmates was having a hard time getting comfortable in the stance. Si-fu would come around and adjust his hips, push him this way and that, getting him into a proper stance and go on to the next person. As soon as si-fu turned his back on him, my classmate went back to what was comfortable for him, even though he was just physically placed into the proper stance.
This went on for weeks on end until one day, si-fu placed him in the proper stance and something "clicked", and he stayed put. Had he been doing this via video he never would have had that "aha" moment....or at the very least, the bad habit would have been so deeply ingrained it would have been next to impossible to overcome.

BINGO! Corrections need to be made over and over and over and over, time and again. Getting corrections once a month, or once every six months, that's nowhere near often enough to get it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Certainly receiving hands on feedback every other month, every month, or every 6 months is not a hindrance to learning. Especially with intensive bootcamps can likely straighten things out that need be.

it absolutely is a hindrance, it is not nearly enough to get the lessons thru.

If a sifu is genuine in intent by stepping into the 21st century to spread of the art of wing chun, then I say go for it.

see, this is completely irrelevant. So it's the 21st Century, so what? Technology exists, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for everything. For some things, martial arts being one of those things, the old way of face-to-face and hands-on training is what works best. That's all there is to it. Coming into the 21st century just isn't relevant to this issue.

 

[StormShadow]

We will just agree to disagree. Especially if the student has opportunity to be corrected and has leisure to revisit older lessons from any point and those lesson are in angles not even usually viewable in a face to face setting. As we move forward in the 21st century and tech deepens, more and more sifu's will try this format out. They've already started because they know structured, taught and supported properly there is no reason why a student cannot learn.

Also to the point you cannot learn surgery online : http://www.intumed.com/

 

[Xue Sheng]

Also to the point you cannot learn surgery online : http://www.intumed.com/

There not learning surgery on line

From the page you linked

Surgeons in training have hectic schedules and finding time to study can be an added challenge. IntuMed's e-learning solution brings interactive material to the surgeons' fingertips via the Internet, 24/7. This program is geared for PGY1 and PGY2 surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery and basic science using multimedia and engaging content to promote learning by doing.

The page is for additional study for surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery. This means they are working in a hospital to become surgeons. This supports the statement I have made many times before about DVD learning. It is at best a supplement to regular training with a teacher.

The link you have supplied is just that, supplementary training

 

[Flying Crane]

There not learning surgery on line

From the page you linked



The page is for additional study for surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery. This means they are working in a hospital to become surgeons. This supports the statement I have made many times before about DVD learning. It is at best a supplement to regular training with a teacher.

The link you have supplied is just that, supplementary training

and, I believe it's already been mentioned here but bears repeating: yes, you can learn intellectual material and thought provoking IDEAS thru online or video instruction. You can even successfully take tests on the material and show your mastery. But that's not the same thing as a physical skill. For some subjects, online or video instruction works just fine. For other subjects, it's nothing short of a disaster.

 

[Kframe]

I can understand what you guys are saying.. I will give this topic much thought.. Ill say this though. The gracie combatives progamm is working for me, because of 2 reasons. A I have a grappling coach, and b I have experience with bjj. I never considered those qualities when mentioning gjj combatives course. I didnt occur to me, that I was using it as a supplement to my current training and not the primary source..

Im reading some convincing arguments here. Is my experience with the gracie combatives program irrelevant? Should that experience effect my opinion of distance learning over all? How should I factor it in?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You have a bjj coach, you train and supplement it with the gracie combatives program. I assume if you start doing anything wrong you coach will correct you and keep you from ingraining bad habits. Sounds like a nice way to supplement your training!

 

[mograph]

Yes hands on feedback is ideal.

Ah. Here's the nub of it: you believe it is "ideal", while myself and others believe it is necessary.

If a sifu is genuine in intent by stepping into the 21st century to spread of the art of wing chun, then I say go for it.

If stepping into the 21st century means diminishing the value of an art, then you're welcome to it. You're setting up a straw man argument here, so I'm calling you on it. You're implying that those who do not support online martial arts learning are Luddites, but if you've been paying attention to the march of technology, it has been moving people away from physical contact. Such "progress" cannot be beneficial to an art dependent on subtle skills derived from physical contact. Of course we're in the 21st century, but we must not let our tools (e.g. the internet) cloud our vision and dictate our choices. Computers and means of distance communication are just tools, and if we think they can improve everything in our lives, we would have let marketers ("drive the information superhighway!") frame the discussion. Sorry -- I'm not going to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry -- I'm not going to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.

But sometimes I'd like to use my computer to hammer a nail...

 

[yak sao]

But sometimes I'd like to use my computer to hammer a nail...

Or use a hammer to beat my computer.

 

[Flying Crane]

Or use a hammer to beat my computer.

I think that's actually a better way of putting it.

 

[StormShadow]

There not learning surgery on line

From the page you linked



The page is for additional study for surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery. This means they are working in a hospital to become surgeons. This supports the statement I have made many times before about DVD learning. It is at best a supplement to regular training with a teacher.

The link you have supplied is just that, supplementary training

You're quite welcome. Actually they are gaining practical knowledge online as well as practicing on the human body and practicals through basically following a surgeon around. Good online programs incorporate distance learning as well as partnering and contact with your teacher at different point in time. If may or may not take longer to learn this way but it certainly works for the serious student.