Could learning online work if..

[Cyriacus]

Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.

Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental.. My question is related to my boxing.

Back a ways, after I had started boxing, my club changed its hours and I was no longer able to attend. That was when I enrolled for the year at a MMA club. Now they are good strikers, but didn't give me the depth of boxing that I wanted. I found a website that contained a lot of the various movements, and defenses and combos and what not. www.myboxingcoach.com is the website.

It was directly because of that website I learned of the lead hand/rear hand block, and both the inside and out side variation of the palm parry. I was able to utilize them in our hands only sparing to good success. All because I learned them from that website. Was it the website and his excellent videos, my previous experience or both that allowed me to watch him and learn?

First, sorry about being neither of the people you actually asked. I just have a contribution

You can get good information online. Simple stuff is simple to learn (go figure).

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/LNgTU.jpg
(Im not sure im allowed to use a term on the forum thats at the bottom of it. Its a great example though)

Theres a difference between learning a few simple things online, augmenting your training online, and trying to actually learn from scratch.
In your case, you were already boxing. The site just gave you something to play with in training, which you ultimately taught yourself based on the site giving you the idea. Self directed learning works sometimes.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.

Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental.. My question is related to my boxing.

Back a ways, after I had started boxing, my club changed its hours and I was no longer able to attend. That was when I enrolled for the year at a MMA club. Now they are good strikers, but didn't give me the depth of boxing that I wanted. I found a website that contained a lot of the various movements, and defenses and combos and what not. www.myboxingcoach.com is the website.

It was directly because of that website I learned of the lead hand/rear hand block, and both the inside and out side variation of the palm parry. I was able to utilize them in our hands only sparing to good success. All because I learned them from that website. Was it the website and his excellent videos, my previous experience or both that allowed me to watch him and learn?

I would venture to say that based off your previous training and skill sets it was natural for you to pick up a few things from that website. (particularly if your previous training and exposure was really good) Hopefully you did not ingrain any bad habits. That would be a problem for your future training. (not that you did of course) Yet people ingrain bad habits all the time and they rarely pick them up on their own. Personally it is very easy for me to watch a video and duplicate what they are doing. (really easy) If I did that however I would have no depth to the training and no real abilities in that system. I do not have that problem because I actually learn from real in people, instructors who have corrected my mistakes over and over again and shown me the variations and brought depth to the training. Imagine Kframe if you only went to that website ( wwww.myboxingcoach.com ) to learn as your principle point of learning boxing. Would you want to step into the ring with a trained boxer from a good club. I doubt it! Would you be a good boxer. Probably not unless you were just a beast with all kinds of magnificent attributes! Xue, myself or Flying Crane are not saying that videos are bad or even that internet online training is bad. What we are saying however is that if that is your only source of training it is not very good. Actually it is poor! Instead, you need a real live in person instructor and then can utilize videos as a supplement for your training. That actually is really, really good. I watch videos, read books all the time on the Martial Sciences. That has always been some thing that has inspired me to keep training! Hope that helps!

 

[mook jong man]

Having been at this Wing Chun instructing gig for quite a few years now , one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the ability people have to get something totally wrong even when I have demonstrated the application right in front of them multiple times and physically moved their arms through the whole technique.

I imagine this issue would become even more amplified if they had to learn from video or the computer.

Students are like learner drivers going down a highway and they keep wandering off the road , they need to have the driving instructor in the front seat with them to keep grabbing the wheel to make sure they stay in the lane and don't drive into a ditch.

You could certainly learn a superficial version of Wing Chun from video , you could copy the structures of Tan , Fook and Bong Sau but they would have no substance to them , they would be an empty shell.

A very important component of Wing Chun techniques is the concept of "Forward Force" without this important element , Wing Chun techniques will not work optimally or indeed not at all.

"Forward Force" cannot be seen , it can only be felt.
How do you know what "Forward Force" feels like ? if you have never felt it before from someone who knows what they are doing.
This "Forward Force" / "Springy Force" also needs constant fine tuning from a qualified instructor , attempting to push too hard results in tension and the use of brute strength , not enough force results in angles collapsing.

It is a very fine line and needs to be constantly monitored with hands on instruction by an experienced teacher.
So unless they can find some way for Sony Playstations and Nintendo Wii to simulate "Forward Force" that means you are stuck learning Wing Chun in person from cranky old bastards like me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Getting back to the actual question can online learning work. I say yes with the right sifu, a well supported program directed by the sifu, community support, good use of video, an available sifu that answers questions and there to meet face to face, a program that supports training partners, workshops, bootcamps and training at the actual kwoon if you can make the trip to it.

You and those like you say no, under no circumstances, never in a million years will someone be able to learn. It is completely and utterly impossible, impractical and illogical to even fathom that someone could. You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video. Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.

Two different points of views. One feels undoubtedly more qualified on the topic through years of training in one setting without having knowledge of being apart or trying such a distant learning program. The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual. One has excellent points, few of which can be argued. The other leans on results and the critiques of those who were once skeptical along with those who've trained for years to witness how it can work first hand.

You may be able to persuade others but not myself. If I tasted steak, knows what it taste like, you aren't going to persuade me that it taste disgusting. I would advise others to do the same. Try it out for yourself and own your own kung fu. Do not let others own your kung fu for you. Test it out, if it doesn't work for you, quit it and find a jkd or mma gym which are readily more available hence more traditional studying options. I highly recommend jkd by the way too.

Interesting, you like to embellish and omit things to try and make a case...don't you

First show me where I (or any of us) said all of this

You and those like you say no, under no circumstances, never in a million years will someone be able to learn. It is completely and utterly impossible, impractical and illogical to even fathom that someone could. You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video. Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.

Now as to this bit

The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual.

You seem to have missed Brian's previous post.

The thing is StormShadow I totally agree with Flying Crane, Xue, etc. We have all been around the block so to speak. I actually have experience not only watching videos, making martial arts videos and yes providing DVD's and youtube videos for my students around the world. Here is the kicker though. With the videos that I put out there for my students there is no way they could learn what is taught on them well unless they are training with a real live teacher who can correct there mistakes or that they have advanced far enough to have a great grasp of the material. (even then they should be training with an instructor to make sure bad habits do not creep in) This isn't once a week, twice a month or seminars a couple of times a year. No they need a regular in person instructor who shows them not only the technique but also minute details and variations on it. Not to mention the applications, two partner drills, etc, etc, etc. They need someone in person with the right viewing angles that can show them where they are making mistakes. They need someone in person who can give them depth to their training. They simply cannot get that only from online video training. I embrace technology but I am telling you that online video training is simply not as good or even good in general without a qualified teacher to show you what you need to work on. It is good as adjunct training on top of training with a real life in person instructor! Just not by itself as the sole means of training. If you do that the product in the end is bound to have lots of mistakes, bad habits and mediocre at best martial skill sets. So like Flying Crane, Xue and I and others have been saying to you if you learn only by this medium you will probably have a superficial understanding of it and probably it won't be that good. We can't do anything more than give you advice some of us have a lot of years behind us backing up that advice! Been around the block and seen a lot! Just sayin.

Frankly what you do is your business and I tend to be of the belief that if one truely beleives in what they are doing and is comfortable with it that the views and opions of others really don't matter much nor would one be arguing for or against it, they would just train.

I only have two real issues with this type of training; one is later, should you feel you have "mastered" all you need by video that you go off and train others. That is likely my biggest issue here because it does go to weakening (watering down) the art and propegates sub-standard martial arts and bills it as the real deal.

The other is with the person who it the "teacher" of this distance learning/online program. It generally is being done for only one reason...money... not the art, not for the students but simply for cash.

Do what you will, I don't agree and feel you are very wrong, but that should not matter to you at all really

 

[StormShadow]

Interesting, you like to embellish and omit things to try and make a case...don't you

First show me where I (or any of us) said all of this



Now as to this bit



You seem to have missed Brian's previous post.



Frankly what you do is your business and I tend to be of the belief that if one truely beleives in what they are doing and is comfortable with it that the views and opions of others really don't matter much nor would one be arguing for or against it, they would just train.

I only have two real issues with this type of training; one is later, should you feel you have "mastered" all you need by video that you go off and train others. That is likely my biggest issue here because it does go to weakening (watering down) the art and propegates sub-standard martial arts and bills it as the real deal.

The other is with the person who it the "teacher" of this distance learning/online program. It generally is being done for only one reason...money... not the art, not for the students but simply for cash.

Do what you will, I don't agree and feel you are very wrong, but that should not matter to you at all really

Embellish??? Search the topic, that is what was basically said. I believe I was being very accurate in those statements. And your right, I respect most opinions represented here if they were represented in a correct manner. Others I've disregarded honestly as I did not see much value in what was stated. But yes people should pursue what they believe in and do so whole-heartedly.

Secondly, don't fret, my kung fu will be tested on others (live face to face as it is now), especially those whom studied traditionally, before I would decide to teach anyone and frankly I doubt I will have the time to train anyone except for my children. If what I learned and "mastered" does not fly then no one gets taught and back to the drawing board. Again, likely will not teach anyone outside of my own regardless. And even so, my children will learn more than one art.

Well, regarding the cash issue, did you train traditionally for free? That argument doesn't hold much weight really. I converse with my sifu and I can only speak for my program. It is not for the money. All distant students are invited and called to train in person as well. We even have use of the kwoon off regular face to face training times if we need it. Of course with no additional fees. So you tell me.

Personally, you have offered the least insight in these discussions and proved nothing but reinate points already made. You have made one successful point though, people will do what they believe and the concerns of others really does not matter. I will say, I do value how you hold wing chun in very high regard and care about the quality being taught. Though I am trying to discern whether you truly care or is it for some self-serving aspect that you do.

BTW, if you or anyone else truly, truly, feels strongly about removing online instruction, I advise you or anyone else to open up your own kwoon and begin spreading the art we all love. If you believe distant education is a "problem", well become part of the solution.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Embellish??? Search the topic, that is what was basically said. I believe I was being very accurate in those statements. And your right, I respect most opinions represented here if they were represented in a correct manner. Others I've disregarded honestly as I did not see much value in what was stated. But yes people should pursue what they believe in and do so whole-heartedly.

Nope, they are not all there, and to say what was "basically said is not exactly what was said and you were not being accurate at all...please feel free search the thread and you will see many are not there.

.

Well, regarding the cash issue, did you train traditionally for free? That argument doesn't hold much weight really. I converse with my sifu and I can only speak for my program. It is not for the money. All distant students are invited and called to train in person as well. We even have use of the kwoon off regular face to face training times if we need it. Of course with no additional fees. So you tell me.

Actually many times I did not pay anything. My Sanda Sifu never charged and my taiji sifu. although he does charge for an hour class I tend to be there training 2 to 3 hours and my first sifu. although he would not do this now, did many times, not charge me for training. But even without that the argument is valid since those that charged were there, in the room and very interested in teaching their art properly. They were not teaching s substandard art online or via distance learning or video.

.
Personally, you have offered the least insight in these discussions and proved nothing but reinate points already made. You have made one successful point though, people will do what they believe and the concerns of others really does not matter. I will say, I do value how you hold wing chun in very high regard and care about the quality being taught. Though I am trying to discern whether you truly care or is it for some self-serving aspect that you do.
.

ahh yet another insult thrown my way from you...I preferred kid because it made me feel young again...... but if you wish to infer I am irrelevant.....since I did not mind being told I had "Poor Vision".....again...I'm ok with that.... because I am not so sure the others in this thread would agree with your assessment

 

[StormShadow]

ok.. Do you feel better about yourself now? Please continue your block quotations to address the remaining paragraphs I wrote. You're very entertaining.

 

[StormShadow]

Nope, they are not all there, and to say what was "basically said is not exactly what was said and you were not being accurate at all...please feel free search the thread and you will see many are not there.



Actually many times I did not pay anything. My Sanda Sifu never charged and my taiji sifu. although he does charge for an hour class I tend to be there training 2 to 3 hours and my first sifu. although he would not do this now, did many times, not charge me for training. But even without that the argument is valid since those that charged were there, in the room and very interested in teaching their art properly. They were not teaching s substandard art online or via distance learning or video.



ahh yet another insult thrown my way from you...I preferred kid because it made me feel young again...... but if you wish to infer I am irrelevant.....since I did not mind being told I had "Poor Vision".....again...I'm ok with that.... because I am not so sure the others in this thread would agree with your assessment

Actually wasn't intended as an insult. Just my view and opinion. Nothing more.

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.

Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental.. My question is related to my boxing.

Back a ways, after I had started boxing, my club changed its hours and I was no longer able to attend. That was when I enrolled for the year at a MMA club. Now they are good strikers, but didn't give me the depth of boxing that I wanted. I found a website that contained a lot of the various movements, and defenses and combos and what not. www.myboxingcoach.com is the website.

It was directly because of that website I learned of the lead hand/rear hand block, and both the inside and out side variation of the palm parry. I was able to utilize them in our hands only sparing to good success. All because I learned them from that website. Was it the website and his excellent videos, my previous experience or both that allowed me to watch him and learn?

I think you've gotten some good answers so far, I'll just add a thought. This has kinda been covered, maybe I'm saying the same thing in a little different way. If you already have some solid training in a particular system, then you can pick up some things via video. Picking up things like combinations is easy, these are actually pretty superficial aspects of the fighting system. Anybody can learn a combo from video and figure out how to use it effectively if you already have a solid grounding in the method.

What cannot be taught via video or video conferenceing is the deeper aspects that make the system as a whole function. These are the principles upon which the system is built and that powers it all. Different systems have a different approach when it comes to things like how to root properly, how power is generated in a strike, etc. Those are subtle things that really need to be taught in a face-to-face, repeated environment. Once you understand those issues and have some skill with them, then you can learn any combo from anywhere, and still apply those principles to that combo. But the combo itself is superficial, it's not deep, it's not difficult. It's the principles that are the most important, that gives you the tools to do anything you want with it.

So I'd say it was the fact that you had some serious boxing training that enabled you to pick up a combo and use it effectively, in the context of boxing.

Again, the issue is using video or video conferencing or distance learning as the only, or the primary, method of instruction. As a supplement, I think we generally agree that it's fine as long as the supplemental material is well made and intelligently used. But as a primary or only method of transmission it just falls really short.

 

[Flying Crane]

You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video.

if your sifu is worth his salt, he will be able to see the errors.

In many cases the student will be unable to assimilate the corrections thru the video medium. The corrections need to happen over and over, often the correction itself needs to be hands-on, meaning the sifu needs to physically move you into the correct posture or thru the correct movement pattern, and do it again and again, before you understand the correction. You as a student need to be in a position where you see it done over and over again. That's what requires face-to-face more frequently than once a month or at a bootcamp every six months. You will get the correction at the boot camp, you will THINK you have made the appropriate adjustment, and yet you are actually still wrong but you won't get another chance to get corrected for another month or six months or whatever. Explaining the correction thru video is unlikely to convey the true message that physically moving the student can do. Ya gotta feel it, and feel it over and over.

Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.

again, it's the quality of the corrections, actually feeling it when sifu moves you into position or physically puts pressure on you.

The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual.

would you share with us the extent of your training experiences? For how long did you train in a traditional setting, in what method(s)? For how long have you pursued the distance program?

 

[wtxs]

BTW, if you or anyone else truly, truly, feels strongly about removing online instruction, I advise you or anyone else to open up your own kwoon and begin spreading the art we all love. If you believe distant education is a "problem", well become part of the solution.

Because we do love our WC, that's why we stand by our collective assessment of "on line" training can not replace the human element required. It is our responsibility to spread the the highest quality WC possible ... for free or fee.

ok.. Do you feel better about yourself now? Please continue your block quotations to address the remaining paragraphs I wrote. You're very entertaining.

We do respect your take on the alternate training process, and you should do the same with ours. continuation with all this arguments are useless and really really really getting boring. :soapbox::deadhorse

If you think Xue Sheng is entertaining, go back and look for an ex member name Coffeeroc, unless you be him in disguise.

 

[StormShadow]

Because we do love our WC, that's why we stand by our collective assessment of "on line" training can not replace the human element required. It is our responsibility to spread the the highest quality WC possible ... for free or fee.



We do respect your take on the alternate training process, and you should do the same with ours. continuation with all this arguments are useless and really really really getting boring. :soapbox::deadhorse

If you think Xue Sheng is entertaining, go back and look for an ex member name Coffeeroc, unless you be him in disguise.

Ok.. where do you teach?

Definitely agree.

Seriously doubt it. But hey you never know

 

[StormShadow]

if your sifu is worth his salt, he will be able to see the errors.

In many cases the student will be unable to assimilate the corrections thru the video medium. The corrections need to happen over and over, often the correction itself needs to be hands-on, meaning the sifu needs to physically move you into the correct posture or thru the correct movement pattern, and do it again and again, before you understand the correction. You as a student need to be in a position where you see it done over and over again. That's what requires face-to-face more frequently than once a month or at a bootcamp every six months. You will get the correction at the boot camp, you will THINK you have made the appropriate adjustment, and yet you are actually still wrong but you won't get another chance to get corrected for another month or six months or whatever. Explaining the correction thru video is unlikely to convey the true message that physically moving the student can do. Ya gotta feel it, and feel it over and over.



again, it's the quality of the corrections, actually feeling it when sifu moves you into position or physically puts pressure on you.



would you share with us the extent of your training experiences? For how long did you train in a traditional setting, in what method(s)? For how long have you pursued the distance program?

Certainly 2.5 years of shotokan karate as a youngster.

2 years of boxing training in the gym as a teen

3 years of jkd training

And now about 4.5 months of wing chun training... via online and live.

Out of many of the post, you have made the most sense and most of your points I actually agree with. Expect for not be able to achieve success. You can replicate the kwoon outside of the kwoon. You may have to work harder to seek experienced training partners and visiting the actually Sifu more but it can be done. Now, you will not become the next yip man or leung bik but you can obtain decent skill with the proper corrections and overseeing of your growth by a dedicated sifu.

 

[Flying Crane]

For the sake of discussion, I'll describe my own experiences with video instruction and distance learning situations. Granted, what Stormshadow is describing does sound like there is at least an effort to have a more interactive distance program that what I experienced, but it was the late 1980s and early 1990s when I was doing this stuff and the internet wasn't much to speak of yet so a lot of those options simply didn't exist.

When I was in college, I stumbled into Capoeira and was absolutely captivated. I already had a martial arts background, I had earned my Shodan in Tracy kenpo. I was taking extra summer courses at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, and they have a capoeira club there. That's where I discovered it, I had never seen it before. I was enrolled at a small college in Minnesota for the regular school year, so my instruction in capoeira was limited to that summer session. One of the guys made a video for me, he demonstrated a few movements and techniques, it was designed to give me some ideas to work on later. When I was back at school during the rest of the year, I made a handful of trips back to Madison for some workshops when they would host a visiting instructor. The following summer I was back in Madison and continued to train with them. When I was away from Madison, I simply did the best I could with what I had learned. I practiced pretty hard, but I knew I didn't understand it very well. Finally, after graduation I was able to attend the club in Madison on a more regular basis for probably the better part of a year before I decided to move to San Francisco because at that time most of the best Capoeira teachers in the US were in that area. It was a good move, I found a good instructor and trained like a maniac. I finally progressed and got the quality of instruction that I knew I needed. The Madison club had a lot of heart and had some good Capoeira players, but honestly they were at a lower/mid level themselves and the quality of the training I was getting, while good, was limited.

Getting that instruction in San Francisco made all the difference in the world. I was stuck at a lower level of development and there was simply no way that I could progress beyond that until I found a good teacher and joined a solid school and got that instruction on a very regular basis.

There were times when my classmates and I would watch capoeira videos, the roda where the "games" are played, and yes, we could learn something from them. We would see someone pull off an interesting movement in the game and that could inspire us and give us ideas. But we weren't learning capoeira from it. We already understood capoeira and we were training with our teacher. That gave us the background to be able to see a combination and recognize how we might integrate it into what we do as well. Without the solid capoeira training that we already had, we would never have been able to do that. This is in line with my comments to Kframe above, in learning a bit of boxing from online to add to the boxing background that he already had.

Aside from this, I also experimented with some video tapes, I tried to learn some Chinese forms in that way. I had been a kenpo guy, and we in our school were kinda intrigued by the Chinese stuff. There was some precidence to it, Tracy Kenpo has adopted some Chinese forms into their curriculum so in that spirit we kinda saw it as maybe an OK thing to do. In hindsight I am not a fan of how the Tracy's adopted that material, but that's a different issue. So my instructors had gotten some instructional videos of Chinese forms from the Green Dragon studios in Stowe, Ohio. I experimented with a couple of these, I was able to mimic the forms and whatnot, but in my heart I knew I was lying to myself. I knew that I didn't really understand what I was doing. I couldn't articulate it at the time but in hindsight I realized that there were deeper things in the CHinese arts that would make the forms make more sense, but that was what we were missing and we simply had no idea what it was. We were just doing the forms, mimicing the movement, without really understanding what was underneath it all and what was driving it. I tried to do this on a couple of occasions over those years and finally just dumped all of it. I knew in my heart that it was fraudulent and had little value so I just decided to be honest with myself and left it behind.

So anyway, yes in my way I have experimented with the concept as well and whatever I may have gained from the process was far outweighed by what was missing. Probably the most valuable lesson I learned was how much you really really do need a good instructor, and you need to have a consistent training schedule with him/her or else you just cannot learn this stuff the way it needs to be done.

 

[mook jong man]

Because we do love our WC, that's why we stand by our collective assessment of "on line" training can not replace the human element required. It is our responsibility to spread the the highest quality WC possible ... for free or fee.



We do respect your take on the alternate training process, and you should do the same with ours. continuation with all this arguments are useless and really really really getting boring. :soapbox::deadhorse

If you think Xue Sheng is entertaining, go back and look for an ex member name Coffeeroc, unless you be him in disguise.

Coffeerox , I remember him , that guy was a scream.
Also don't forget that other dude from Pakistan I think it was , who was asking for critique on his videos all the time and he fabricated some ******** story about being assaulted.
I can't remember his name at the moment.

But yeah those guys were good value.

 

[Flying Crane]

Certainly 2.5 years of shotokan karate as a youngster.

2 years of boxing training in the gym as a teen

3 years of jkd training

And now about 4.5 months of wing chun training... via online and live.

How young were you in Shotokan? I began my martial arts training at age 13, in kenpo, in 1984. Well, actually I had a bare handful of lessons in Tae Kwon Do at a younger age, but I can't really count that. I earned my Shodan at age 16. In hindsite I recognize that at that age, while I had heart and trained pretty hard, I think my understanding was not that deep, despite the rank I earned. So much so that starting in 2006 I completely retrained back to Shodan in Tracy kenpo under a new teacher.

I say this because I know that at an early age the quality of the understanding simply is not that great. A child's mind just doesn't grasp the deeper issues very well, even tho they may be able to do the physical movement fairly well.

So you are listing, as your training in a traditional environment, 2.5 years, 2 years, and 3 years. And much of that was at a young age. Honestly, I think it is very possible that you hadn't gained enough experience yet to begin to understand the deeper issues in the training. It was probably still at a superficial mimickry stage. When I was young, I know that's all that I understood about it. And it probably takes the first three years or even more, with an adult's mind, before you start to clue into the fact that there are much deeper issues that can vastly improve your training, once you understand them. You've switched paths three times there, just when you might have been getting close to making some real progress.

What I'm saying is, I think your traditional training was probably not that deep or significant yet, it's very possible that you just don't understand what you are missing.

 

[StormShadow]

How young were you in Shotokan? I began my martial arts training at age 13, in kenpo, in 1984. Well, actually I had a bare handful of lessons in Tae Kwon Do at a younger age, but I can't really count that. I earned my Shodan at age 16. In hindsite I recognize that at that age, while I had heart and trained pretty hard, I think my understanding was not that deep, despite the rank I earned. So much so that starting in 2006 I completely retrained back to Shodan in Tracy kenpo under a new teacher.

I say this because I know that at an early age the quality of the understanding simply is not that great. A child's mind just doesn't grasp the deeper issues very well, even tho they may be able to do the physical movement fairly well.

So you are listing, as your training in a traditional environment, 2.5 years, 2 years, and 3 years. And much of that was at a young age. Honestly, I think it is very possible that you hadn't gained enough experience yet to begin to understand the deeper issues in the training. It was probably still at a superficial mimickry stage. When I was young, I know that's all that I understood about it. And it probably takes the first three years or even more, with an adult's mind, before you start to clue into the fact that there are much deeper issues that can vastly improve your training, once you understand them. You've switched paths three times there, just when you might have been getting close to making some real progress.

What I'm saying is, I think your traditional training was probably not that deep or significant yet, it's very possible that you just don't understand what you are missing.

ok

 

[StormShadow]

Yea in shotokan, I was like 11. Boxing well into solid teenage years. Jkd was started in my college yrs. I don't believe it takes a genius to understand what you need in your training "for you". In my experiences, some ppl are more gifted, more in tune, listen better, grasp concepts better than others. Some ppl it doesn't take as much to learn as others. I have always been a believer it really depends on the individual. The same learning method may not be the best case for each person. Some ppl my not thrive in a class setting at all. Some ppl require a class setting to learn else they have issues. Some people have real trouble connecting concepts if it's not performed right in front of their eyes. To each it's own.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't believe it takes a genius to understand what you need in your training "for you".

well, particularly in the early years of training the student often does not know what he needs. Often what he THINKS he needs is the opposite of what he really needs, and that's where a good instructor comes in.

In my experiences, some ppl are more gifted, more in tune, listen better, grasp concepts better than others. Some ppl it doesn't take as much to learn as others.

I don't disagree with this. But in order to thrive, even a gifted individual needs quality instruction.

 

[StormShadow]

well, particularly in the early years of training the student often does not know what he needs. Often what he THINKS he needs is the opposite of what he really needs, and that's where a good instructor comes in.



I don't disagree with this. But in order to thrive, even a gifted individual needs quality instruction.

I don't disagree with that.