Teaching Kids WC/WT forbidden

[Tanizaki]

No biggy, just pretend I never said it Not getting sucked into THIS again

Ok. I didn't ask you to support the idea that it is the deadliest. I merely asked to whom it is known as such.

 

[brocklee]

lol the ignore feature is great.

 

[Tez3]

Ok. I didn't ask you to support the idea that it is the deadliest. I merely asked to whom it is known as such.

Well it's obviously known as the deadliest to those who know it's the deadliest! :uhyeah:

 

[brocklee]

Well it's obviously known as the deadliest to those who know it's the deadliest! :uhyeah:

lol that's such a true statement, as funny as it may sound.

 

[Tanizaki]

Well it's obviously known as the deadliest to those who know it's the deadliest! :uhyeah:

In other words, people who say, "X is teh deadly" are really saying "I practice X".

 

[wck dallas]

With all respect to your instructor, that comment is a little goofy. If he really feared that liability, he would also extend it to the adults that he taught.
I assume he'd prefer a call from the office than a visit from the local authorities. I don't know the law where you live, but I find it improbable that he would be subject to any civil liability.

what ???
I guess you believe children have the same level of responibility as adults ?

 

[Tanizaki]

what ???
I guess you believe children have the same level of responibility as adults ?

Wut?

The sifu's goofy comment reflects a belief that he would be liable for misuse of what he teaches, as if the dangerous instrumentality doctrine applied. The law makes no such distinction between children and adult in this manner. That instructor is surely not naive enough to believe that an adult would never misuse his instruction.

Mostly, I think he just wanted to make a comment saying that WC is oh-so-deadly.

 

[Primal Kuen]

Wut?

The sifu's goofy comment reflects a belief that he would be liable for misuse of what he teaches, as if the dangerous instrumentality doctrine applied. The law makes no such distinction between children and adult in this manner. That instructor is surely not naive enough to believe that an adult would never misuse his instruction.

Mostly, I think he just wanted to make a comment saying that WC is oh-so-deadly.

I believe that the Sifu is quoted by saying " YOU do'nt want that phone call from the school office ". Sounds like he was'nt implying that he would be liable....but the parent certainly would be.


As for the Sifu just wanting to make a comment on the deadliness of WC, well I'm not getting in that debate beyond saying that the Sifu in question might know what he's talking about beyond you or me.....

In 1998 Sifu Cottrell became the first Westerner to win first place at the Traditional Wu-Shu competition held in Jinan, China. He stands as the U.S. representative of the Yantai Boxing Association as a recognized sifu of Northern Mantis in the Wong Hon Fun tradition. Sifu Cottrell and his students have been featured in Master's Demonstrations at prestigious martial arts events in the West and Asia, and Sifu Cottrell was privileged to perform at Grandmaster Chung's retirement ceremony in 1998. In 2002 Sifu Cottrell won two gold medals in traditional Gongfu competitions in Yantai, China.
Having a master's degree in education and language skills in seven languages, including Chinese and Korean, Sifu Cottrell brings a unique perspective to the study of Kung-Fu that truly combines both the Wen, or liberal arts, and the Wu, or martial studies.
A published author, Sifu Cottrell is also the principle performer in a 13-tape series, "Wing Chun For Combat" and co-hosts a tape series with Sifu Alan Lamb, "The Wing Chun Master's Series."

Link to original work

 

[Tanizaki]

I believe that the Sifu is quoted by saying " YOU do'nt want that phone call from the school office ". Sounds like he was'nt implying that he would be liable....but the parent certainly would be.

He must be a mighy warrior if he is so afraid of an irate phone call from a parent or school official that he alters his business for it.

A published author, Sifu Cottrell is also the principle performer in a 13-tape series, "Wing Chun For Combat" and co-hosts a tape series with Sifu Alan Lamb, "The Wing Chun Master's Series."

Why did you copy and paste this advertising into your post? I am not interested in buying tapes.

 

[Primal Kuen]

He must be a mighy warrior if he is so afraid of an irate phone call from a parent or school official that he alters his business for it.



Why did you copy and paste this advertising into your post? I am not interested in buying tapes.

Because your interests do not dictate what I post ?

 

[Carol]

This has been a very interesting discussion.

Primal, if you don't mind me asking...you seem to be quite knowledgeable of Sifu Cottrell. Unfortunately I am not as familiar with him as I am not a Chinese stylist. Would you mind describing a bit more about how he fits in to the topic of teaching children? He sounds like an interesting teacher and I'd like to hear more about he fits in to the topic here. Thanks!

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think it is difficult to judge this. There shouldn't be a standard rule saying that kids should not be allowed to be taught wing chun, but I think that kids should be separated from the adults when doing it. I think also, you would need to watch the whole 'black belt in five weeks' syndrome which is rampant through martial arts.

It was once suggested at Kamon that we should open up a kids class, and it is possible (you can mix games in with the martial arts etc). However, what you have to remember is that the joints and muscle haven't properly developed in young kids and doing the basic stance/bong sao, etc could mess up their legs/joint development

I am of the opinion that it is nice for kids to do martial arts as a hobby when younger, but they shouldn't be led to believe that they can seriously defend themselves at that age.

I heard of one story in the UK that said that a kid had been taught by his sensei that he could take on anyone. He tried to take on an adult, lost and was pretty messed up because of it.

 

[Tanizaki]

Because your interests do not dictate what I post ?

Oh boy! I can't wait to start posting some adverts!

 

[Si-Je]

This has been a very interesting discussion.

Primal, if you don't mind me asking...you seem to be quite knowledgeable of Sifu Cottrell. Unfortunately I am not as familiar with him as I am not a Chinese stylist. Would you mind describing a bit more about how he fits in to the topic of teaching children? He sounds like an interesting teacher and I'd like to hear more about he fits in to the topic here. Thanks!

I'll tell ya. He's the Sifu in DFW that has been the resident "expert" in Wing Chun for the past 25-30 years. Mainly because he's been the ONLY WC teacher here for years. There's some great instructors in Dallas but their usually too far for most people. He teaches Mantis and WC. But he doesn't really focus as much on teaching WC, as much as Mantis. His teacher is Sifu Allen Lamb I believe.

This is the guy that tells all the local students, parents, and other martial artists in my hometown that kids CAN'T learn WC. We had a seven year old student who's cousin was taking Mantis from Cottrell. Sifu Cottrell told this child that he didn't have the coordination to study WC and the ability to understand it because he wasn't developed enough. Our student told his cousin that "his" Sifu, (my hubbie) that we teach him WC and said proudly that he could too practice WC. That student could handle grade 1 easily and we were getting started on grade 2 when we had to close the school.

Like I said before, just because you cannot handle teaching kids, don't have the patience, or the time to spend teaching them martial morality, or are concerned with calls from the principle, then don't teach kids. But leave us folks alone that can handle those issues.

Frankly, I'll take that call from the principle's office, go down there or whatever. Wasn't afraid of the principle even when I was a kid. lol!
I'd rather my students get into a "fight" hand to hand one on one, than what kids are doing today. And most of the time, it's 3 to one or more! Or there's weapons involved.

It's not like I'm wanting to teach mook jong to 8 year olds, you don't have to go that far with the training for young kids. Grade 1 and 2 are plenty until they get older. I really don't see what's the big deal.
Other than the fact that it seems most instructors prefer to teach children less effective arts for "safety" reasons.
blegh!
Personally, I'd trust a child's motives for fighting over an adults weird alterior motives for combat. Kid's are simpler, their intentions more pure than that of any adult. period.
Not worried about a kid running amock and doing serious harm to others as much as our adult students.

And for "legal" purposes here in my neck of the woods. If a kid does serious assault they can be tried as an adult at age 16 and their working on making that younger. The parents are directly liable for what their child does legally until this age. And don't forget, who is truly responsible for raising a child? Not the instructor, not the school teacher, not the cops, not the state.

I personally think that kids are suffering needlessly when it comes to true, comprehensive, and effective self-defense training. As well as safety awareness training. Do you know that NONE of our kids knew any of the basics of stranger danger, environmental safety awareness, or even the basics of dialing 911?! Unacceptable. Our society is slacking.

I'm sick of the Amber Alert, and kids getting killed, molested, and kidnapped. These things are unnecessary, and preventable. Teaching kids "safe" martial arts will only get them into more danger. False hope, self-confidence, and false technique I find to be more damaging than the child knowing nothing at all.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it is difficult to judge this. There shouldn't be a standard rule saying that kids should not be allowed to be taught wing chun

Nobody is in a position to make up such a rule and enforce it outside of their own school anyway. This is really up to the individual instructor to decide for himself.

However, what you have to remember is that the joints and muscle haven't properly developed in young kids and doing the basic stance/bong sao, etc could mess up their legs/joint development

True, many forms of exercise, including things like weight lifting should not be overdone at too young an age as it can adversely affect a child's growth. But things like WC basic stance, and bong sao can screw up an adult's joints as well, or at least aggravate an existing chronic injury. That much isn't limited to the children.

I am of the opinion that it is nice for kids to do martial arts as a hobby when younger, but they shouldn't be led to believe that they can seriously defend themselves at that age.

yeah, too many commercial schools seem to fall into this pattern, or so it seems to me. It goes along with giving high rank to young children. It's a disservice to everyone involved. False sense of security for the child, waters down the martial arts for everyone.

 

[tenth1]

i believe that kids can be taught and whats more they will learn faster than most adults can, as long as they are taught in a responsible manner then its fine. i dont believe that kids should be given a high rank such as black belt untill they reach an age and level of maturity where they can handle this responsibility, si je you and your husband sound as though you are responsible teachers with a genuine interest in the safety of kids and i congratulate you on your integrity

 

[bcbernam777]

After the closure of the school, we thought we'd try working for a "non-profit" outfit for kids teaching Karate/TKD. The guy said we could teach Wing Chun as long as we adapted it to his curriculum and format.
We did this. Simplfing Wing Chun so kids could pick it up much easier, the kids and parents loved it. We were to do a 6 week kind of internship and then we'd be left to teaching two locations on our own.
When the new semester started I had to get the higher belts up to speed with their new charts and the class ended up being 100% WC. He was furious.
He told us that he'd been talking to other Sifu's online and around the area and that they firmly stated that children lack the cordination and basicly I.Q. to learn WC, but gave them credit for having the negative motivations of adults in that they could hurt eachother with the training.
We've heard this bunk before, and for the past two years have had no problem teaching kids WC as well as honor in respect to when to use it, and the responsibility of knowing it.
He was also afraid that our kids would "win" in his closed tournament too much and hurt his other instructors kids "self-esteme" too much and that the other kids would want to learn WC. ????!!!!???!
Dude's taking 90% of what we bring in at a location and is griping that more students would come to our location.
Then he took the school from us in the "rich" area and forbade us from teaching WC. But, it was okay for us to teach it to the gehetto kids at the location where NONE of his instructors want to teach. I grew up in that neighborhood. And the kids there really REALLY need WC. But the entire deal really has me ticked off.

If other Sifu's don't want the responsbility of teaching kids, each to their own. If other Sifu's can't figure out how to teach kids, or don't want to deal with it fine. But that's their opinion and they should refrain from stepping on other WC teacher's toes about it.
Frankly, my OPINION on teaching in general is this. If you can't break WC down enough to explain it to a child you don't really need to be teaching. WC is SIMPLICITY, and too many people over analyze the art to death. Thus, making it less effective, overly complicated, and unspontaneous.
Maybe this is more of this Kung Fu/Wing Chun politicing, maybe the guy is just a chicken and is hiding his opinion behind others. But, we've heard this view point from other Sifu's in our area before.

As I've said before, I have very different viewpoints of WC than others, and am not impressed with the politicing either, nor do I care.

My husband and I have created a really great children's curriculum and are going to persue teaching it on our own. If other Sifu's have a problem with it, tough. We are unfederated and do not answer to any teacher, as is more and more my preference.

Kids can learn Wing Chun, this Sifu is wrong

 

[Si-Je]

Well, I guess this has just riled me up quite a bit. And seems to be controversial for some reason. But, we're going to keep on teaching when and where we can. Personally, I wish to concentrate on teaching women and children exclusively. My hubbie can take the guys and teach them.

My interest lies eleswhere when it comes to teaching.
And I truely feel that women and children have been short changed when it comes to true self-defense.

Especially children.