Could learning online work if..

[StormShadow]

You can take from it what you will. Unless I specifically state that which you're accusing me of, than that's not what I meant. Actually I do pay attention to technology, I would hope so at least being a software engineer. Because of computers, you have online banking, medical equipment that saves your life, safer vehicles, in dept entertainment, a site to come visit and converse with your kung fu brothers, so on and son on. I would say technology is far more than communication and the catalyst that progresses the human race forward. I appreciate your opinions as you offer a different argument. I would just prefer to judge individuals on individual skill and not from the medium in which they learned it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would just prefer to judge individuals on individual skill and not from the medium in which they learned it.

we do, actually. We judge someones skills for what they are. Where they learned their skills often gives the answer to why they are good, or, um...not so good.

 

[StormShadow]

we do, actually. We judge someones skills for what they are. Where they learned their skills often gives the answer to why they are good, or, um...not so good.

I would say rather who they learned from and even that isn't always the case.

 

[Flying Crane]

This isn't an issue of pedigree. Actually, in Chinese and Japanese martial arts, lineage does matter. It matters quite a lot, actually. It's only in western places like the US where people are happy to do whatever they want, that these issues get tossed aside.

I get the American free-thinking, innovation, by your own person mentality. It makes sense and works in a lot of ways. But it's not compatible with certain things. In Asian martial arts, lineage is important because not everyone out there actually has the knowledge and skill they might be claiming. Knowing your lineage and the history of your method can help you judge who can walk the walk and who is worth learning from. It helps you make good decisions about who to apprentice yourself to, in learning this stuff.

But that's a whole different discussion than simply online or distance learning. A good lineage holder could offer online instruction. I still wouldn't trust it. He may really know his stuff and be a good teacher in his own right. But that doesn't mean online learning is a good idea.

A legitimate lineage-holder should know better, by the way, and shouldn't be offering it in this manner.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You're quite welcome. Actually they are gaining practical knowledge online as well as practicing on the human body and practicals through basically following a surgeon around. Good online programs incorporate distance learning as well as partnering and contact with your teacher at different point in time. If may or may not take longer to learn this way but it certainly works for the serious student.

But that is not distance learning of surgery.

It is a regular, hands on learning by surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery that also are using this online program to supplement their training. It is not online training and the occasional meet at a hospital it is the constant 24/7 grueling residency with a bit of online help.

This is not the same thing that you are talking about, this is not incorporating distance learning as well as partnering and contact with your teacher at different point in time. This is constant contact with those who are training you and when you have time going online. The online bit is at best secondary in this situation

 

[Flying Crane]

I would say rather who they learned from and even that isn't always the case.

who they learned from, but also the manner in which they gained their instruction.

some people like to get a few lessons from a famous person and then claim to have "trained under" that person. It's misleading. Just because they brushed shoulders for a short time, or had a few lessons over a period of time, doesn't mean there was a legitimate teacher-student relationship. The real question is not, "who do you claim was your teacher", but rather, "does the teacher claim you as his student?" The answer to that question is far more telling.

If a famous person is offering online instruction, then it's like brushing shoulders with him for a short period. It just doesn't add up to quality instruction, even tho the teacher may otherwise be very capable.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You can take from it what you will. Unless I specifically state that which you're accusing me of, than that's not what I meant. Actually I do pay attention to technology, I would hope so at least being a software engineer. Because of computers, you have online banking, medical equipment that saves your life, safer vehicles, in dept entertainment, a site to come visit and converse with your kung fu brothers, so on and son on. I would say technology is far more than communication and the catalyst that progresses the human race forward. I appreciate your opinions as you offer a different argument. I would just prefer to judge individuals on individual skill and not from the medium in which they learned it.

You also have hacker, crackers, viruses, trojans, theft fraund and cyber attacks too. Yeah I'm in the whole computer thing too....just on the security side.

 

[StormShadow]

I've heard the stories of student/teacher having a fallout disagreement than cutting ties. Unless you have first hand accounts in these situations, it's merely formulating an opinion on limited knowledge.

 

[StormShadow]

You also have hacker, crackers, viruses, trojans, theft fraund and cyber attacks too. Yeah I'm in the whole computer thing too....just on the security side.

ok..

 

[Flying Crane]

I've heard the stories of student/teacher having a fallout disagreement than cutting ties. Unless you have first hand accounts in these situations, it's merely formulating an opinion on limited knowledge.

I'm not following what you are saying by this. Yes, splits and disagreements happen. where does that relate here?

 

[StormShadow]

You're eluding to watching some video, performing movements not understanding the sensitivity aspect of the art. I am talking about following a weekly training program to progress you from point A to Point Z, touching hands with the teacher whom is teaching and working with another wing chun partner who perhaps has more experience than you have, while on the sensitivity aspect of the art. Oh and by the way, being in live constant communication, phone, net and in person with the sifu. I fail to see how someone "could not get it" i'm sorry. Unless they are not serious about learning or an idiot, they should be able to not only learn but own it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You're eluding to watching some video, performing movements not understanding the sensitivity aspect of the art. I am talking about following a weekly training program to progress you from point A to Point Z, touching hands with the teacher whom is teaching and working with another wing chun partner who perhaps has more experience than you have, while on the sensitivity aspect of the art. Oh and by the way, being in live constant communication, phone, net and in person with the sifu. I fail to see how someone "could not get it" i'm sorry. Unless they are not serious about learning or an idiot, they should be able to not only learn but own it.

Working directly with a teacher, meaning being physically there with a teacher, allows the teacher to physically adjust your postures, movement, application, etc. And do it constantly until you get it. That cannot happen over the phone ot by e-mail or even with the ocassinal meeting. And working with another inexperienced person will just create more bad habits since you are both working based on "I think this is what he is doing" or I think this is how it works" and neither actually knows.

 

[Flying Crane]

You're eluding to watching some video, performing movements not understanding the sensitivity aspect of the art. I am talking about following a weekly training program to progress you from point A to Point Z, touching hands with the teacher whom is teaching and working with another wing chun partner who perhaps has more experience than you have, while on the sensitivity aspect of the art. Oh and by the way, being in live constant communication, phone, net and in person with the sifu. I fail to see how someone "could not get it" i'm sorry. Unless they are not serious about learning or an idiot, they should be able to not only learn but own it.

two questions: 1) how often meeting with the sifu, face-to-face.
2) how much more experienced than you, is your training partner?

You could have a month of experience and your training partner could have a month and a half. That doesn't put his ability above yours. You are both raw beginners.

 

[Xue Sheng]

ok..

Basically you example is about as much of a justification for your argument as mine they really are not realted to the good or bad of online training.

If you are able to get together with an actual shifu on a regualar basis I highly recommend it...then talk about distance learning and how good it is

 

[Flying Crane]

There are many wing chun practitioners whom studied at a physical kwoon yet their wing chun is not very good. I don't see the issue being the format of delivery but rather the student practicing. So to say a student in a well supported online program by the sifu with all the possible trimmings outside of a 2 day a week kwoon visit would not become good is not accurate in my opinion.

You said this yesterday and I meant to comment on it.

Your observation is valid: lots of people who train in a real kwoon don't get it. That's the nature of martial arts: it's tricky, it takes a lot of work and a lot of insights, and many people, under the best conditions, aren't up to it, are not able to thrive in it.

so the question is, how could somebody hope to thrive if they are further removed from the instruction by separation thru the internet or phone or video conferencing or whatever other method? How does that jive? Most people don't thrive under the best conditions. They certainly can't thrive from a greater distance.

You want to describe the internet experience as "being connected" in this manner. I don't see it that way, at least not for martial arts. In this case, it is being separated and being handicapped by internet interaction. In this case, the internet is a hindrance, not a help. It is an obstacle.

 

[StormShadow]

two questions: 1) how often meeting with the sifu, face-to-face.
2) how much more experienced than you, is your training partner?

You could have a month of experience and your training partner could have a month and a half. That doesn't put his ability above yours. You are both raw beginners.

1. Live video- weekly, In person- that depends on where the student is located. If you can do once or twice a month great. If you live in the UK and can only make workshops and bootcamp, great.

2. Mine has 10 yrs experience over me. Studied in a traditional kwoon of course. He sees no difference in my skill vs another whom visits a traditional kwoon twice or once a week. I've made the same mistakes as others have made in a brick building. In some cases, I have actually performed better than students he has trained with in the past. To each it's own I guess. Learning at own pace in that you can revisit lessons definitely has its benefits.

Though, even if he didn't have the training he has over me, two students with equal beginner ability can still progress. Yes, they will make mistakes and yes that need to be corrected. That's what learning is, you make mistakes and you learn from it.

 

[StormShadow]

You said this yesterday and I meant to comment on it.

Your observation is valid: lots of people who train in a real kwoon don't get it. That's the nature of martial arts: it's tricky, it takes a lot of work and a lot of insights, and many people, under the best conditions, aren't up to it, are not able to thrive in it.

so the question is, how could somebody hope to thrive if they are further removed from the instruction by separation thru the internet or phone or video conferencing or whatever other method? How does that jive? Most people don't thrive under the best conditions. They certainly can't thrive from a greater distance.

You want to describe the internet experience as "being connected" in this manner. I don't see it that way, at least not for martial arts. In this case, it is being separated and being handicapped by internet interaction. In this case, the internet is a hindrance, not a help. It is an obstacle.

Could possibly be an obstacle for some. Though not all. It's always more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[StormShadow]

You said this yesterday and I meant to comment on it.

Your observation is valid: lots of people who train in a real kwoon don't get it. That's the nature of martial arts: it's tricky, it takes a lot of work and a lot of insights, and many people, under the best conditions, aren't up to it, are not able to thrive in it.

so the question is, how could somebody hope to thrive if they are further removed from the instruction by separation thru the internet or phone or video conferencing or whatever other method? How does that jive? Most people don't thrive under the best conditions. They certainly can't thrive from a greater distance.

You want to describe the internet experience as "being connected" in this manner. I don't see it that way, at least not for martial arts. In this case, it is being separated and being handicapped by internet interaction. In this case, the internet is a hindrance, not a help. It is an obstacle.

Having studied martial arts in a traditional setting previously, If the online program didn't work for me, I would have stated that so others knew what my experiences were. I apologize that it can & does actually work.

 

[Flying Crane]

1. Live video- weekly, In person- that depends on where the student is located. If you can do once or twice a month great. If you live in the UK and can only make workshops and bootcamp, great.

in my opinion, this is not enough. Yak Sau posted a little while back about his classmate who was getting constant correction for the same error before he was finally able to correct it. That repeated correction doesn't happen enough if you meet once or twice a month, certainly not if it's just workshops and bootcamps once or twice a year. I just do not believe it is enough to get it right, to get the corrections you need, as often as needed.

2. Mine has 10 yrs experience over me. Studied in a traditional kwoon of course. He sees no difference in my skill vs another whom visits a traditional kwoon twice or once a week. I've made the same mistakes as others have made in a brick building. In some cases, I have actually performed better than students he has trained with in the past. To each it's own I guess. Learning at own pace in that you can revisit lessons definitely has its benefits.

If your training partner has ten solid years of good training, then he could be at a sifu level. In this case, you are not really learning from the Sifu thru the distance program. You are learning from your training partner. He is your real sifu, tho the head Sifu may be the one with oversite. This is a common kind of arrangement in the martial arts, where branch schools will get oversight from some head master or something. Using the internet or video conferencing for the oversite is a newer approach, and I don't agree with it for that either, but it's not the same as learning thru a distance program.

In your case you may need to acknowledge that your reality is more traditional and you are not really learning from the head sifu thru a distance program. The distance portion is merely supplemental, perhaps gives your training partner some guidance on curriculum structure for you, but he is really the one teaching you and it is face-to-face and in person.

Take that one element out of the mix, your training partner. Replace him with someone of your level and if the two of you started from ground zero together I believe you could not progress in this way.

hough, even if he didn't have the training he has over me, two students with equal beginner ability can still progress. Yes, they will make mistakes and yes that need to be corrected. That's what learning is, you make mistakes and you learn from it.

I think it would be a game-changer, if you and your training partner were both beginners together and tried to work thru a distance program. It would be really difficult to the point of unrealistic, to try and get the corrections often enough for them to sink in. I don't believe it's possible.

Also keep in mind, the physical techniques and curriculum of the system are not really what the training is about. Those are just tools that are used to help you develop a set of skills. Getting the physical movement "perfect" so that it looks just like sifu, isn't the point and isn't a measure of your skill. It's what you can do with the skills that matter. And that takes a level of insight that isn't built without exposure. Being in the kwoon with a teacher and with other classmates is where those more nebulous lessons sink in. If you don't have much of that kind of exposure, then you never develop real skill, even tho you may learn the complete system, the full curriculum.

 

[Flying Crane]

Having studied martial arts in a traditional setting previously, If the online program didn't work for me, I would have stated that so others knew what my experiences were. I apologize that it can & does actually work.

Don't apologize for your position. You clearly believe in this. others of us do not. It's just debate, it's not the end of the world. The sun WILL still come up tomorrow morning.

But this topic does seem to come up regularly here. We who are vocal here will speak up because we are sharing the fruits of our training and experience.