Could learning online work if..

[Xue Sheng]

What's the topic again?

I am not sure…but apparently it is about my age and apparently I’m a kid….I’m ok with being called a kid too…..

 

[StormShadow]

You're right. I apologize. You have every right to your opinions and I respect that fact.

 

[Kframe]

Flying crane, how can she make any improvement at all if she cant lay down roots to train? IF they already have a solid base, the online course can help. Here is the rub with online. There needs to be interaction with the instructors. Now honestly this should not be a problem. There are a number of video conferencing programs out there, and most people have video recorders on their laptops/computers any ways. I would think regular video sessions combined with self learning can work. At some point though, you need a partner. The Gracies are adamant about that.

In there system, at Gracie Univeristy online, they have most of the course as taught at the Gracie school online in the exact order you would learn it.. They make it clear that right off the bat you need a buddy. Secondly, they have regular interaction. You send in the video and they critique it. If its not good they will not promote you.. Is it perfect, no, but it fits with the philosophy of Helio Gracie, to bring GJJ to as many people as possible. Now I don't have to use it, as I have a skilled grappler teaching me, but I am still watching and learning from it.

I think that, as time goes on, you will see more distance learning of martial arts. Things like the Kinetic from X box has the potential to teach the basics and forms and drills at home. I think that the difference between the crappy videos of the past and the distance learning of the future is that there will be increased direct interaction with a teacher via video conferencing. Combine that with linking up with a willing partner and it can work..

Now if you use them to go over what you already know, that is probably the best way to do it. You can never work enough basics.

Yes its not the same as a actual class, but its better then nothing. Doing nothing is not going to help you.

 

[Kframe]

Wanted to add. Everytime these distance learning debates come up, the anti distance side only complains. How bout making suggestions on how to improve online distance learning.. I stand by my suggestion of more video conferencing and interaction with the instructor. Setting up a way to regularly link up with others is important.

Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Wanted to add. Everytime these distance learning debates come up, the anti distance side only complains. How bout making suggestions on how to improve online distance learning.. I stand by my suggestion of more video conferencing and interaction with the instructor. Setting up a way to regularly link up with others is important.

Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.

Here is a great suggestion for distance training.

1. Train regularly with an instructor in that system
2. Travel and attend seminars and intensives with instructors in the system
3. Use the distance training as an adjunct but not the main course of training

If you do the above particularly numbers 1 and 2 you have a good chance of not ingraining bad habits or learning poorly.
However, if you just do learn from a video then you will definitely learn bad habits that you may never be able to undo. I have seen this happen to people on more than one occasion!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.

Colleges have proven that you can actually learn course work from books and take tests online. I would venture to say that they have not proven that you can learn physical applied sciences online. They are very different!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Colleges have proven that you can actually learn course work from books and take tests online. I would venture to say that they have not proven that you can learn physical applied sciences online. They are very different!

Exactly, I have done college courses online as well, but they teach theory and not so much application. You don't see online classes in Surgery classes but you can see online anatomy and physiology

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying crane, how can she make any improvement at all if she cant lay down roots to train? IF they already have a solid base, the online course can help. Here is the rub with online. There needs to be interaction with the instructors. Now honestly this should not be a problem. There are a number of video conferencing programs out there, and most people have video recorders on their laptops/computers any ways. I would think regular video sessions combined with self learning can work. At some point though, you need a partner. The Gracies are adamant about that.

In there system, at Gracie Univeristy online, they have most of the course as taught at the Gracie school online in the exact order you would learn it.. They make it clear that right off the bat you need a buddy. Secondly, they have regular interaction. You send in the video and they critique it. If its not good they will not promote you.. Is it perfect, no, but it fits with the philosophy of Helio Gracie, to bring GJJ to as many people as possible. Now I don't have to use it, as I have a skilled grappler teaching me, but I am still watching and learning from it.

I think that, as time goes on, you will see more distance learning of martial arts. Things like the Kinetic from X box has the potential to teach the basics and forms and drills at home. I think that the difference between the crappy videos of the past and the distance learning of the future is that there will be increased direct interaction with a teacher via video conferencing. Combine that with linking up with a willing partner and it can work..

Now if you use them to go over what you already know, that is probably the best way to do it. You can never work enough basics.

Yes its not the same as a actual class, but its better then nothing. Doing nothing is not going to help you.

I don't buy it. I simply do not. It is chock full of problems and not the way to go about it. You don't have to agree with me. But that's my position.

 

[Flying Crane]

Wanted to add. Everytime these distance learning debates come up, the anti distance side only complains. How bout making suggestions on how to improve online distance learning.. I stand by my suggestion of more video conferencing and interaction with the instructor. Setting up a way to regularly link up with others is important.

Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.

face-to-face and hands-on. Distance learning just isn't the way to do it. It's not about trying to put a positive spin on it or looking for the positive aspects of it. It's about this: it's simply the wrong way to go about learning this kind of thing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

face-to-face and hands-on. Distance learning just isn't the way to do it. It's not about trying to put a positive spin on it or looking for the positive aspects of it. It's about this: it's simply the wrong way to go about learning this kind of thing.

Totally agree!!!

 

[Kframe]

Here is a great suggestion for distance training.

1. Train regularly with an instructor in that system
2. Travel and attend seminars and intensives with instructors in the system
3. Use the distance training as an adjunct but not the main course of training

If you do the above particularly numbers 1 and 2 you have a good chance of not ingraining bad habits or learning poorly.
However, if you just do learn from a video then you will definitely learn bad habits that you may never be able to undo. I have seen this happen to people on more than one occasion!

I agree with what you say.. How about this as another suggestion. How about instead of the videos being the primary lessons. The instructor sets up regular tri weekly live video conferences with his students. The students would preferably have a partner with them. He could lead the class and help individuals at the same time.. I think the videos can be used to teach things like the basics.

You could have partner drills online as well, and then they would be reinforced with the tri weekly live class..

I have a interest in distance learning because for a good portion of my youth I lived in a town with no Martial arts with in 50 miles. Being that I was in college, I could not afford a car, so I was screwed. Had a viable distance learning system been in place I could had a head start on where I am now..

I think tho, that certain systems lend themselves to partnered distance learning. GJJ is one of those systems. From the reviews I have read, and the videos I have seen the instruction is top notch. Not all systems translate well into that kind of a format.

 

[Kframe]

So basicly flying crane, if you cant get quality face to instruction, don't bother with martial arts ever.. WOW.

Why is video conferencing a problem for you? IT is face to face.. How do you address someone who lives in a area with few choices, or no choices at all? There is no other option. I was in such a situation.. I lost valuable years of my youth because I had no were to train.. Had a well thought out distance learning system been in place I could have actually done some training instead of the bs I was doing to not be bored..

Your telling me, they can in no way help? What about someone who wants to try a specific art, yet it does not exist in his or her state?

Not even with video conferencing and and a regular partner?

You cant accept that there are people and places were there is little other options.

I didn't ask you for a positive spin on it. I asked you to provide suggestions to improve it, so that people in situations were there is little martial arts available to them can train something.. So that the most amount of people have the opportunity to learn..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I agree with what you say.. How about this as another suggestion. How about instead of the videos being the primary lessons. The instructor sets up regular tri weekly live video conferences with his students. The students would preferably have a partner with them. He could lead the class and help individuals at the same time.. I think the videos can be used to teach things like the basics.

You could have partner drills online as well, and then they would be reinforced with the tri weekly live class..

I have a interest in distance learning because for a good portion of my youth I lived in a town with no Martial arts with in 50 miles. Being that I was in college, I could not afford a car, so I was screwed. Had a viable distance learning system been in place I could had a head start on where I am now..

I think tho, that certain systems lend themselves to partnered distance learning. GJJ is one of those systems. From the reviews I have read, and the videos I have seen the instruction is top notch. Not all systems translate well into that kind of a format.

If they were already students and had a base in the system and regularly met with their instructor. Then they might get some benefit. However, if there was no very regular feedback then I am afraid they would ingrain bad habits and hurt their training. I cannot tell you how many times through the years I have had someone come to me and they learned some thing from a video. (particularly submission grappling) Only to not really learn it properly and have ingrained bad habits that made it easy for someone who knew what they were doing to exploit. In regards to the Gracie Jiujitsu program I think it is not good as well. Sure they are going to turn out a few descent bjj practitioners but the vast majority will be crap. (maybe even craptastic) They will miss fine details in the movement, they will ingrain bad habits over time and walla they in turn will be an inferior product in comparison to someone who goes to the Gracie Academy and practices there. That is just the reality of the situation in my opinion!!!

 

[Kframe]

Brian, so I presume that your ok with with idea of regular weekly video conferencing classroom sessions? Provided there was a partner for each student present?

I think that the videos cant be the entire art.. Things like basics, and stances and movement drills can be done via video after the intial teaching.. I think that partner drills can also be online as well. Here is my take on it. The online content should be locked. In that, the students can only accsess it after they have had a number of video conference instruction sessions on those said drills. No skipping ahead.

None of this would be necessary if arts other then diluted sport karate and tkd were available in more parts of the world. I would love to try wing chung, but sadly all I have with in a hours drive is a green sash wing chung guy, who also teaches Juan fan... Something about it seems mcdojoish..

 

[Leam]

The feedback loop is a critical part of learning. You can practice and then get in fights, or you can practice and spend time getting a critique from a teacher. Books and on-line beat nothing but physical skills are tougher to learn without someone who knows what they are doing giving you feedback.

Use books and on-line for what you can get from them and find a teacher you can visit as often as you can. It may not be ideal, but you, and only you, can determine what your life priorities are.

Leam

 

[Flying Crane]

So basicly flying crane, if you cant get quality face to instruction, don't bother with martial arts ever.. WOW.

essentially, yes. Life isn't fair. I'm not trying to be mean about it, just honest. sometimes things simply are not available to you. If you want it, go to it. I did. I moved from Wisconsin to San Francisco in order to be able to train with the people I felt were the best. that was my decision. But if it isn't available, there are some things for which there simply are no other acceptable alternatives. You'd be better off reading books and doing intellectual research, rather than pursuing distance learning like this.

If you want to believe distance and video learning will work, then go for it. You don't need my permission. But I promise you, the results will be no better than 5th rate. The problem is, you won't be able to recognize it for what it is. You will think it's great, or at least good enough. I'm doing you a kindness: I'm giving you the truth. I'm not going to lie to you and deceive you and help you believe something that isn't true. If you want to believe it, well at least it wasn't me who lied to you or mislead you.

Why is video conferencing a problem for you? IT is face to face..

No, it isn't. It's thru a camera. You CANNOT see and critique as well thru a camera, as you can face-to-face. There are too many subtleties that are not perceivable or correctable when there is a camera between the sifu and the student. It's simply not the same thing.

How do you address someone who lives in a area with few choices, or no choices at all? There is no other option. I was in such a situation.. I lost valuable years of my youth because I had no were to train.. Had a well thought out distance learning system been in place I could have actually done some training instead of the bs I was doing to not be bored..

see above.

Your telling me, they can in no way help? What about someone who wants to try a specific art, yet it does not exist in his or her state?

see above.

Not even with video conferencing and and a regular partner?

nope.

You cant accept that there are people and places were there is little other options.

oh, I do accept it. I know it all too well. I grew up in such a place. see above.

I didn't ask you for a positive spin on it. I asked you to provide suggestions to improve it, so that people in situations were there is little martial arts available to them can train something.. So that the most amount of people have the opportunity to learn..

it's not improvable. It simply is not the venue for it.

 

[yak sao]

I'm coming in rather late to the conversation. I tend to stay away from these of late because there is no convincing the person who wants to learn long distance that it is not a good idea.
I live smack in the middle of nowhere...not a lot of kung fu to be found here. So I went and got it. I brought in instructors on a monthly basis for years and when they weren't coming to me, I was going to them.
I've done this for something like 20 years now; it can be done.

I have had many people over the years come to me saying they know this or that about Wing Tsun, only to find out that they picked it up from books or video. I don't ridicule them, I don't make fun of them. Quite honestly, I appreciate their plight: they wanted to learn, but it wasn't available to them, so they did what they thought was the next best thing.

But time and time again these people prove that learning from video/books/online does not work. There is no substance to what they are doing. Their technique may look terrific, they may have it mimicked down to the most minute detail, but when it is pressure tested it falls apart.

And I'm not talking balls out, "show me what you got" pressure testing. I'm talking simple things like being able to resist a minor push without toppling back in their stance, being able to disperse a heavy punch with a tan sau, without it collapsing in on them, being able to feel a punch coming from underneath and stopping it with a proper jum sau.

These are all basic things taught within the first couple of classes, yet these guys have "learned the whole system" from video and can't even do these things....so learning online?.......I'm not a fan.

 

[mograph]

Distance learning is communicated by seeing and hearing, not touching.

 

[StormShadow]

I agree with what you say.. How about this as another suggestion. How about instead of the videos being the primary lessons. The instructor sets up regular tri weekly live video conferences with his students. The students would preferably have a partner with them. He could lead the class and help individuals at the same time.. I think the videos can be used to teach things like the basics.

You could have partner drills online as well, and then they would be reinforced with the tri weekly live class..

I have a interest in distance learning because for a good portion of my youth I lived in a town with no Martial arts with in 50 miles. Being that I was in college, I could not afford a car, so I was screwed. Had a viable distance learning system been in place I could had a head start on where I am now..

I think tho, that certain systems lend themselves to partnered distance learning. GJJ is one of those systems. From the reviews I have read, and the videos I have seen the instruction is top notch. Not all systems translate well into that kind of a format.

Wing chun as well as you know is certainly a partnered system. My online program is pretty much that. We are critiqued personally by live video, video and in person ( if you can make it to the kwoon, which I can). We all have wing chun training partners. My partner studied with my sifu at his school for years, so I am a lucky one to have an experienced wing chun partner. I've already been corrected by my sifu as he could see some things I was doing wrong. As a person who has studied the traditional way and the online way, the online way works too. The program just has to be "Very" interactive between student to sifu and student to student as well as having a viable partner. If you can be corrected by your sifu, touch hands with him and other students from time to time, and have a viable training partner also of the same art, I say you have all the true support you need to become successful. The rest is up to you and how well you train.

 

[StormShadow]

If they were already students and had a base in the system and regularly met with their instructor. Then they might get some benefit. However, if there was no very regular feedback then I am afraid they would ingrain bad habits and hurt their training. I cannot tell you how many times through the years I have had someone come to me and they learned some thing from a video. (particularly submission grappling) Only to not really learn it properly and have ingrained bad habits that made it easy for someone who knew what they were doing to exploit. In regards to the Gracie Jiujitsu program I think it is not good as well. Sure they are going to turn out a few descent bjj practitioners but the vast majority will be crap. (maybe even craptastic) They will miss fine details in the movement, they will ingrain bad habits over time and walla they in turn will be an inferior product in comparison to someone who goes to the Gracie Academy and practices there. That is just the reality of the situation in my opinion!!!

I think there is confusion between an online program and learning from a bunch of videos. Yes, if you purchase a slew of videos off amazon to train from than I say your assessment is spot on. You likely will develop bad habits with no one regularly "Over-seeing" your progress. If you are apart of an online program where the sifu is responsible for "over-seeing" your progress and corrects your mistakes then I fail to see where the bad habits come into play.

There are many wing chun practitioners whom studied at a physical kwoon yet their wing chun is not very good. I don't see the issue being the format of delivery but rather the student practicing. So to say a student in a well supported online program by the sifu with all the possible trimmings outside of a 2 day a week kwoon visit would not become good is not accurate in my opinion.