Could learning online work if..

[StormShadow]

Much of what you say is mere theory with out much scientific evidence to back it coupled with alot of opinion. I think I would know whether or not my training partner is my sifu lol. Was your training partner your sifu when you began learning? In all, I am not going to reiterate with long drawn out paragraphs. You do not believe it works, that's great. I believe it works, that's great.

BTW, as far as looking like the sifu, I am trying to build my own personal kung fu by using the tools he teaches me. You are correct, the measure of your skill in essence is how you apply the principles to your life as well as how well can you defend yourself using the principles.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Much of what you say is mere theory with out much scientific evidence to back it coupled with alot of opinion.

This is not scientific based study from you or any of us. I can just as easily say all you are saying is nothing more than an opinion as well and that opinion is based on far less experience than mine or Cranes or Brian's or, etc. I would not call it a theory though since what we are talking about has been proven by actually doing it and see the results of it. What you are putting forth however I would call theory

What we are saying is based on history and experience, not scientific study...and the same can be said of your position as well. The fact computers work well is not a good argument for your position

I think I would know whether or not my training partner is my sifu lol. Was your training partner your sifu when you began learning?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no but he was always there to correct if necessary, to physically stop me if necessary, to physically position me in necessary, to stop bad habits before they begin if necessary

In all, I am not going to reiterate with long drawn out paragraphs. You do not believe it works, that's great. I believe it works, that's great.

I'm ok with that, nothing to argue there, and I don't believe it works well nor do I believe it can. It can teach you something, that I do not doubt. However what it teaches you is not going to be at the level of understanding or the quality of those who actually train with their shifu on a regular basis, meaning being in the same room with a shifu on a regular basis, once or more a week.

 

[StormShadow]

This is not scientific based study from you or any of us. I can just as easily say all you are saying is nothing more than an opinion as well and that opinion is based on far less experience than mine or Cranes or Brian's or, etc. I would not call it a theory though since what we are talking about has been proven by actually doing it and see the results of it. What you are putting forth however I would call theory

What we are saying is based on history and experience, not scientific study...and the same can be said of your position as well. The fact computers work well is not a good argument for your position



Sometimes yes and sometimes no but he was always there to correct if necessary, to physically stop me if necessary, to physically position me in necessary, to stop bad habits before they begin if necessary



I'm ok with that, nothing to argue there, and I don't believe it works well nor do I believe it can. It can teach you something, that I do not doubt. However what it teaches you is not going to be at the level of understanding or the quality of those who actually train with their shifu on a regular basis, meaning being in the same room with a shifu on a regular basis, once or more a week.

If your receiving personal training from your sifu, face to face, not in a class of 15-20 ppl than nothing will compare to that. It can be said attending a regular class will not achieve the level or quality as the instances of training just mentioned. It's a rabbit hole really. Even at it's base, some wing chun is better than none at all.

 

[StormShadow]

This is not scientific based study from you or any of us. I can just as easily say all you are saying is nothing more than an opinion as well and that opinion is based on far less experience than mine or Cranes or Brian's or, etc. I would not call it a theory though since what we are talking about has been proven by actually doing it and see the results of it. What you are putting forth however I would call theory

What we are saying is based on history and experience, not scientific study...and the same can be said of your position as well. The fact computers work well is not a good argument for your position



Sometimes yes and sometimes no but he was always there to correct if necessary, to physically stop me if necessary, to physically position me in necessary, to stop bad habits before they begin if necessary



I'm ok with that, nothing to argue there, and I don't believe it works well nor do I believe it can. It can teach you something, that I do not doubt. However what it teaches you is not going to be at the level of understanding or the quality of those who actually train with their shifu on a regular basis, meaning being in the same room with a shifu on a regular basis, once or more a week.

My position wasn't the fact that computers work well. It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance. Anything and everything can be misused. The fact people use "hacking" as a tool to gain information or personal gain does not prove anything and I fail to see how it is relevant to begin with; but that point is moot.

 

[wtxs]

Technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance.

After all had been said and done :argue: ... no amount of technology can replace or displace the most important element ... the human factor. Now if you would excuse me, got to get more popcorn. opcorn:

 

[mograph]

My position wasn't the fact that computers work well. It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance.

You're kidding, right? Technology is never a hindrance to our everyday lives?

 

[Flying Crane]

Even at it's base, some wing chun is better than none at all.

well yes, and at the same time, no.

Do you need to know the entire wing chun curriculum in order to fight or defend yourself? No, of course not. So some is better than none.
However, whether you know a little or a lot, it is only valuable if it is well learned, well understood, and well taught. If not, if the quality is not high, then whether you know a little or a lot is irrelevant. In fact, it can mislead you and create real problems in your training. In that case, some is actually not better than none. It really depends.

That's really what we are getting at: we do not believe that the quality can be high when transmitted thru this format. Your opinion is otherwise, and that's fine. But it really is your opinion and I suspect you may not have the experience to know one way or the other. That's what's dangerous about it. You may believe with all your being that what you've learned is of high quality, but in fact it very likely is not.

 

[StormShadow]

You're kidding, right? Technology is never a hindrance to our everyday lives?

God forbid you need a CAT scan, routine blood test, or have to brake suddenly at a stop light. I'm sure these are all hindrances to your livelihood.

 

[StormShadow]

well yes, and at the same time, no.

Do you need to know the entire wing chun curriculum in order to fight or defend yourself? No, of course not. So some is better than none.
However, whether you know a little or a lot, it is only valuable if it is well learned, well understood, and well taught. If not, if the quality is not high, then whether you know a little or a lot is irrelevant. In fact, it can mislead you and create real problems in your training. In that case, some is actually not better than none. It really depends.

That's really what we are getting at: we do not believe that the quality can be high when transmitted thru this format. Your opinion is otherwise, and that's fine. But it really is your opinion and I suspect you may not have the experience to know one way or the other. That's what's dangerous about it. You may believe with all your being that what you've learned is of high quality, but in fact it very likely is not.

Others may share your opinion as others share my opinion. That part of it all is fine. You're judging something and someone simply because you have no experience with it, as if you have all-knowing knowledge of the fact. Just because your beliefs /thought process/ego will not allow you to think/view beyond and/or comprehend it, does not mean it has no validity. Really in fact that's likely an opinion with nothing to stand on but personal beliefs.

 

[Flying Crane]

Others may share your opinion as others share my opinion. That part of it all is fine. You're judging something and someone simply because you have no experience with it, as if you have all-knowing knowledge of the fact. Just because your beliefs /thought process/ego will not allow you to think/view beyond and/or comprehend it, does not mean it has no validity. Really in fact that's likely an opinion with nothing to stand on but personal beliefs.

no I am not judging you, and nothing about this is pesonal. This has nothing to do with judment. I am advising you that the path you are on is likely to lead you to disappointing results, and it may in fact be deceptive and you may not even realize it. That is simply an issue under debate here.

What you do with that advice is up to you. You became a major participant in this thread, but you didn't start it. This is an open discussion that anyone can contribute to, and you can choose to listen and consider what is being said, or reject it. That's up to you.

 

[StormShadow]

no I am not judging you, and nothing about this is pesonal. This has nothing to do with judment. I am advising you that the path you are on is likely to lead you to disappointing results, and it may in fact be deceptive and you may not even realize it. That is simply an issue under debate here.

What you do with that advice is up to you. You became a major participant in this thread, but you didn't start it. This is an open discussion that anyone can contribute to, and you can choose to listen and consider what is being said, or reject it. That's up to you.

Appreciate your advice. I've been involved in formal and online. You've been involved in only formal I take it. I likely would have a better idea for comparing the two in regards to actually learning and trying to drive home those skills on others. I'm sure you're a great martial artist with a lot of skill. Just please understand where I am coming from as well. Nothing has ever been 100% one way and only one workable way in every case. And I do not dimiss your opinion as learning face to face is of course optimum. But, as I have seen results and others as well,even compared to a traditional student, I am unable to also dismiss a responsible distant education as useless with no chance of becoming competent.

 

[Flying Crane]

Appreciate your advice. I've been involved in formal and online. You've been involved in only formal I take it. I likely would have a better idea for comparing the two in regards to actually learning and trying to drive home those skills on others. I'm sure you're a great martial artist with a lot of skill. Just please understand where I am coming from as well. Nothing has ever been 100% one way and only one workable way in every case. And I do not dimiss your opinion as learning face to face is of course optimum. But, as I have seen results and others as well,even compared to a traditional student, I am unable to also dismiss a responsible distant education as useless with no chance of becoming competent.

alright, well, choose your path and good luck to you.

 

[StormShadow]

Thank you and continued success in your training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The thing is StormShadow I totally agree with Flying Crane, Xue, etc. We have all been around the block so to speak. I actually have experience not only watching videos, making martial arts videos and yes providing DVD's and youtube videos for my students around the world. Here is the kicker though. With the videos that I put out there for my students there is no way they could learn what is taught on them well unless they are training with a real live teacher who can correct there mistakes or that they have advanced far enough to have a great grasp of the material. (even then they should be training with an instructor to make sure bad habits do not creep in) This isn't once a week, twice a month or seminars a couple of times a year. No they need a regular in person instructor who shows them not only the technique but also minute details and variations on it. Not to mention the applications, two partner drills, etc, etc, etc. They need someone in person with the right viewing angles that can show them where they are making mistakes. They need someone in person who can give them depth to their training. They simply cannot get that only from online video training. I embrace technology but I am telling you that online video training is simply not as good or even good in general without a qualified teacher to show you what you need to work on. It is good as adjunct training on top of training with a real life in person instructor! Just not by itself as the sole means of training. If you do that the product in the end is bound to have lots of mistakes, bad habits and mediocre at best martial skill sets. So like Flying Crane, Xue and I and others have been saying to you if you learn only by this medium you will probably have a superficial understanding of it and probably it won't be that good. We can't do anything more than give you advice some of us have a lot of years behind us backing up that advice! Been around the block and seen a lot! Just sayin.

 

[StormShadow]

Point well taken. Certainly depends on viewing angles, speed of instruction, explanation and overall quality of the teacher on how well the students can use the material that is through recorded or live video. This whole talk of bad habits seems to be a major sticking point. A student can be reviewed live by a sifu, in multiple angles not even typically possible with the naked eye to be corrected if need be. The only major difference that I and other formal/ distant learning students see is you MUST have a good wing chun training partner. If the two or more are beginners, they should be persistent about the art and trying to be as correct as possible in performing the art. And also, I do not believe if you are engaging the teacher face to face every month constitutes and pure video training. Especially if it's for multiple day periods over the entire course of a day. As I mentioned, it really depends. Just can't kick all distant learning instruction out and say " ahhh that doesn't work, it's trash" without properly evaluating it with unbiased intent. It certainly has to be well supported by some form of live contact with the sifu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My position wasn't the fact that computers work well. It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance. Anything and everything can be misused. The fact people use "hacking" as a tool to gain information or personal gain does not prove anything and I fail to see how it is relevant to begin with; but that point is moot.

I failed to see how it was relevant when you brought it into the discussion and that was the point

 

[Xue Sheng]

God forbid you need a CAT scan, routine blood test, or have to brake suddenly at a stop light. I'm sure these are all hindrances to your livelihood.

So are you are saying that all technology enhances our lives and that you do not see any possibility of a hindrance from technology or are you just picking a choosing a few in an attempt your make your point seem more viable.

 

[StormShadow]

So are you are saying that all technology enhances our lives and that you do not see any possibility of a hindrance from technology or are you just picking a choosing a few in an attempt your make your point seem more viable.

Take from it what you will (if anything).

 

[StormShadow]

Getting back to the actual question can online learning work. I say yes with the right sifu, a well supported program directed by the sifu, community support, good use of video, an available sifu that answers questions and there to meet face to face, a program that supports training partners, workshops, bootcamps and training at the actual kwoon if you can make the trip to it.

You and those like you say no, under no circumstances, never in a million years will someone be able to learn. It is completely and utterly impossible, impractical and illogical to even fathom that someone could. You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video. Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.

Two different points of views. One feels undoubtedly more qualified on the topic through years of training in one setting without having knowledge of being apart or trying such a distant learning program. The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual. One has excellent points, few of which can be argued. The other leans on results and the critiques of those who were once skeptical along with those who've trained for years to witness how it can work first hand.

You may be able to persuade others but not myself. If I tasted steak, knows what it taste like, you aren't going to persuade me that it taste disgusting. I would advise others to do the same. Try it out for yourself and own your own kung fu. Do not let others own your kung fu for you. Test it out, if it doesn't work for you, quit it and find a jkd or mma gym which are readily more available hence more traditional studying options. I highly recommend jkd by the way too.

 

[Kframe]

Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.

Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental.. My question is related to my boxing.

Back a ways, after I had started boxing, my club changed its hours and I was no longer able to attend. That was when I enrolled for the year at a MMA club. Now they are good strikers, but didn't give me the depth of boxing that I wanted. I found a website that contained a lot of the various movements, and defenses and combos and what not. www.myboxingcoach.com is the website.

It was directly because of that website I learned of the lead hand/rear hand block, and both the inside and out side variation of the palm parry. I was able to utilize them in our hands only sparing to good success. All because I learned them from that website. Was it the website and his excellent videos, my previous experience or both that allowed me to watch him and learn?