Clear distinctions between MMA and RBSD.

[GreenieMeanie]

Agreed - you should be. What I've seen in some places is that they are missing fundamentals, but working on more advanced material.

In my experience, RBSD places tend to cover fundamentals—but because of the way the curriculum is structured, you never actually achieve competence with any of them. For that, you have to cross-train.

I’ve been fortunate enough to train places that had RBSD guys and MMA guys under the same roof, which made that very straightforward.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my experience, RBSD places tend to cover fundamentals—but because of the way the curriculum is structured, you never actually achieve competence with any of them. For that, you have to cross-train.

I’ve been fortunate enough to train places that had RBSD guys and MMA guys under the same roof, which made that very straightforward.

That's a good combination. The MMA influence likely helps keep the RBSD curriculum honest.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

That's a good combination. The MMA influence likely helps keep the RBSD curriculum honest.

Actually, it was the other way around—without the MMA, we could forget how to fight during scenario based training, and get our asses kicked during the adrenaline dump.

The RBSD was perfectly honest, it was just an issue of retaining the knowledge.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually, it was the other way around—without the MMA, we could forget how to fight during scenario based training, and get our asses kicked during the adrenaline dump.

The RBSD was perfectly honest, it was just an issue of retaining the knowledge.

I was using that term idiomatically. The MMA influence keeps the RBSD from drifting away from basic fundamentals.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I was using that term idiomatically. The MMA influence keeps the RBSD from drifting away from basic fundamentals.

But that was not my experience.

I don’t agree that this is the way things are necessarily, if you have proper instruction and curriculum.

But I can understand if this website’s members are traumatized by so much shitty RBSD

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think what pressure testing sports type martial arts gives to the RBSD community is a rock solid plan B.

In other words, if that groin grab doesn't work, I know my double leg takedown will. Or if that eye gouge fails to disable him, then my elbow to the jaw will.

Competitive sparring and rolling makes you tough, hard to take down, hard to hit, and harder to damage.

Having a competitive background not only gives you a plan B, it also helps give you a solid BS detector when evaluating the utility and effectiveness of RBSD techniques.

I think they compliment each other well.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I think what pressure testing sports type martial arts gives to the RBSD community is a rock solid plan B.

In other words, if that groin grab doesn't work, I know my double leg takedown will. Or if that eye gouge fails to disable him, then my elbow to the jaw will.

Competitive sparring and rolling makes you tough, hard to take down, hard to hit, and harder to damage.

Having a competitive background not only gives you a plan B, it also helps give you a solid BS detector when evaluating the utility and effectiveness of RBSD techniques.

I think they compliment each other well.

The people who already know how to fight and “stack bodies” aren’t in need of MMA.

I’ve had the privilege of knowing older men that don’t train, but would easily wipe the floor with you from years of experience, instinct, and poor choices they survived.

It’s the students who need an MMA foundation, to better absorb what’s being taught from a legit RBSD instructor, like such older dudes.

 

[Jared Traveler]

The people who already know how to fight and “stack bodies” aren’t in need of MMA.

I’ve had the privilege of knowing older men that don’t train, but would easily wipe the floor with you from years of experience, instinct, and poor choices they survived.

It’s the students who need an MMA foundation, to better absorb what’s being taught from a legit RBSD instructor, like such older dudes.

Well. I once disarmed a guy who was trying to shoot me with a Glock 19. What saved me wasn't the handgun disarms I learned and even use to teach. What saved me was a wrestling go behind, and take down, jujitsu back control and an obscure judo arm lever. I have no doubt without my competitive grappling background that I would have been shot. Because what was needed was dominance, positioning and problem solving.

I don't know how someone can already learn how to fight, without training? So I think I'm missing the point you are making?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Well. I once disarmed a guy who was trying to shoot me with a Glock 19. What saved me wasn't the handgun disarms I learned and even use to teach. What saved me was a wrestling go behind, and take down, jujitsu back control and an obscure judo arm lever. I have no doubt without my competitive grappling background that I would have been shot. Because what was needed was dominance, positioning and problem solving.

I don't know how someone can already learn how to fight, without training? So I think I'm missing the point you are making?

It comes back to the idea that some people are insisting on, that everything you need to know can be taught in a sport setting, and that it’s all the same. A LOT of what you need to know is usually taught best in a sport setting (body mechanics and range overall)—but there are still critical lessons that are only tested/learned in the field, that have to be taught and cannot be safely replicated with full pressure testing.

A lot of people died in Iraq, for law enforcement and military to learn about the variety of ways things can go wrong clearing buildings.

 

[Jared Traveler]

It comes back to the idea that some people are insisting on, that everything you need to know can be taught in a sport setting, and that it’s all the same. A LOT of what you need to know is usually taught best in a sport setting (body mechanics and range overall)—but there are still critical lessons that are only tested/learned in the field, that have to be taught and cannot be safely replicated with full pressure testing.

A lot of people died in Iraq, for law enforcement and military to learn about the variety of ways things can go wrong clearing buildings.

I completely agree. Although I think in some areas law enforcement is way ahead on learning CQB lesson that work outside of a military context. But your point remains something I agree with.

With that said, regarding my gun disarm situation, I had to do this in the pitch dark, because my flashlight rolled off the porch and it was about 3am. Also as I was cuffing him, with the gun laying a few feet from me, his girlfriend opened the door and became another layer to the problem. So I agree reality is far more complex and there is a real need for specific training for that purpose.

In fact after the event I thought hard for about a month, trying to figure out how I screwed up and ended up wrestling for a gun.

And I figured it out! It is unlikely I will ever make those mistakes again. In fact what I taught to police cadets is what I learned about how not to be in that situation, not so much how I disarmed him.

 

[Jared Traveler]

The people who already know how to fight and “stack bodies” aren’t in need of MMA.

I have to push back a little on this. There are many paths to victory. Most of the extremely dangerous guys I know learned how to not "stack bodies" and not get in physical fights. In my business if you get in too many physical struggles and too many gunfights, the experienced guys(the ones who deeply understand survival) start seriously questioning your judgement, your ability to learn from your experience and you tactics.

"Stacking bodies" is not a sign of proficiency as it pertains to RBSD. And if someone has a high body count as a military door kicker, great. But that does little to qualify someone to effectively teach RBSD. It just means they kicked some doors.

If you are unarmed, and at bad breath distance and are in a fight for your life, a significant factor is going to be who has better MMA type/sport martial arts type skills. People who stack bodies are vulnerable the same as everyone else.

If you are good, you avoid ever being in an unarmed, bad breath distance fight. If you are good, you master never being in a situation where you fight from a position of disadvantage. That's how you survive multiple encounters.

But if you want to learn to fight from an extreme position of disadvantage when you are unarmed, the number one skill to posses is MMA type skills. I don't care if you are SWAT, SEAL, Ranger, SAS, or batman, this remains true.

If you are someone who "stacks a lot of bodies" and you have a super ton experience with physical confrontation, you are doing it wrong.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I have to push back a little on this. There are many paths to victory. Most of the extremely dangerous guys I know learned how to not "stack bodies" and not get in physical fights. In my business if you get in too many physical struggles and too many gunfights, the experienced guys(the ones who deeply understand survival) start seriously questioning your judgement, your ability to learn from your experience and you tactics.

"Stacking bodies" is not a sign of proficiency as it pertains to RBSD. And if someone has a high body count as a military door kicker, great. But that does little to qualify someone to effectively teach RBSD. It just means they kicked some doors.

If you are unarmed, and at bad breath distance and are in a fight for your life, a significant factor is going to be who has better MMA type/sport martial arts type skills. People who stack bodies are vulnerable the same as everyone else.

If you are good, you avoid ever being in an unarmed, bad breath distance fight. If you are good, you master never being in a situation where you fight from a position of disadvantage. That's how you survive multiple encounters.

But if you want to learn to fight from an extreme position of disadvantage when you are unarmed, the number one skill to posses is MMA type skills. I don't care if you are SWAT, SEAL, Ranger, SAS, or batman, this remains true.

If you are someone who "stacks a lot of bodies" and you have a super ton experience with physical confrontation, you are doing it wrong.

That is a fair criticism, in terms of language, and pretty much everything you say is correct.

“Stacking bodies” was more my way of saying, that the individual is experienced in both conventional and unconventional ways of applying violence, and think about a situation in way that an experienced MMA fighter could not.

 

[drop bear]

It comes back to the idea that some people are insisting on, that everything you need to know can be taught in a sport setting, and that it’s all the same. A LOT of what you need to know is usually taught best in a sport setting (body mechanics and range overall)—but there are still critical lessons that are only tested/learned in the field, that have to be taught and cannot be safely replicated with full pressure testing.

A lot of people died in Iraq, for law enforcement and military to learn about the variety of ways things can go wrong clearing buildings.

An why couldn't they have tested that with water pistols or something instead?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

An why couldn't they have tested that with water pistols or something instead?

Because nobody anticipated how creatively ruthless and violent the insurgency would be. People who were there have said, that Fallujah was the single most insane battle of their career.

The entire place was a death trap of hidden machine gun nests, IEDs, suicide bombers, rigged cars, guerilla snipers, and dudes with AKs hiding under couches.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Because nobody anticipated how creatively ruthless and violent the insurgency would be. People who were there have said, that Fallujah was the single most insane battle of their career.

The entire place was a death trap of hidden machine gun nests, IEDs, suicide bombers, rigged cars, guerilla snipers, and dudes with AKs hiding under couches.

I think some lessons translate, but many things don't. I know guys who were there. You can't as a civilian throw handfuls of grenades before entering rooms. Then when you take fire, you can't back out and have a tank level the place.

Collateral damage, rules of engagement, technology, armor, cover fire, team work, it all creates skills specific to that form of combat.

I'm not saying they didn't learn a lot, but much of it isn't relevant to RBSD.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I think some lessons translate, but many things don't. I know guys who were there. You can't as a civilian throw handfuls of grenades before entering rooms. Then when you take fire, you can't back out and have a tank level the place.

Collateral damage, rules of engagement, technology, armor, cover fire, team work, it all creates skills specific to that form of combat.

I'm not saying they didn't learn a lot, but much of it isn't relevant to RBSD.

I’ve been confused as to the definition of “RBSD,” but now I think I get it. I thought RBSD referred to just real-world violence in general.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’ve been confused as to the definition of “RBSD,” but now I think I get it. I thought RBSD referred to just real-world violence in general.

That might explain some of the confusion. Reality-based self-defense (RBSD) is a marketing term for training that is oriented away from sport, and supposedly focused at how violence actually happens in the street (and how best to respond to it). Some of it may in fact be actually that, but at least some of it is apparently based on emotional impressions of what folks think those situations are likely to be.

The concept is a good one: look for the most efficient and effective methods and strategies for dealing with the most likely real-world violence. Develop that and only that, with a focus on either ending or escaping an attack as quickly and efficiently as possible. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of bias involved, in avoiding things that look like TMA too much, as well as things that look too much like sport.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

That might explain some of the confusion. Reality-based self-defense (RBSD) is a marketing term for training that is oriented away from sport, and supposedly focused at how violence actually happens in the street (and how best to respond to it). Some of it may in fact be actually that, but at least some of it is apparently based on emotional impressions of what folks think those situations are likely to be.

The concept is a good one: look for the most efficient and effective methods and strategies for dealing with the most likely real-world violence. Develop that and only that, with a focus on either ending or escaping an attack as quickly and efficiently as possible. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of bias involved, in avoiding things that look like TMA too much, as well as things that look too much like sport.

I know exactly what you’re talking about. I took me awhile to realize, that “legit RBSD” is essentially advanced MMA, with some street tactical training.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’ve been confused as to the definition of “RBSD,” but now I think I get it. I thought RBSD referred to just real-world violence in general.

RBSD is like Medieval costume fairs. They usually focus on re-enactment of events. Where they run into trouble is a lack of actual training in martial art. A few people in LARP gear can kill you with daggers and swords because they train HEMA or Escrima or something. But most are playing dress up.

So you get a lot of guys in full tactical mode telling you what's gonna happen but this guy can't even pummel without gassing put. That's your reality right there, most of the guys who sell RBSD are simply not even in fighting condition.

The weapons guys are even worse, because a lot of them claim military and security creds that are sus. Sasha Baron Cohen parodied this, and punked some Merican politician dude by pretending to be an Israeli Commando RBSD expert.

"Picture the scene: you're chained to a radiator, naked, with a bag over your head...". RBSD in a nutshell.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You might be asking how people could possibly fall for this stuff.

Me too.

This one is age restricted (How to Survive a Beheading), but worth it.