Clear distinctions between MMA and RBSD.

[GreenieMeanie]

People in that lifestyle train all sorts of martial arts.

So if I train the same martial arts as them. Then I have the same background.

So believing I have the same tools as some and better tools than others to defend myself. Is a very reasonable conclusion.

And not at all foolish.

And there are real world examples.

By lifestyle—that also includes gangsters and insurgents. I don’t think they are all getting formal martial arts training.

I think it is well established that JJ is especially useful for police, given their procedures.

Martial arts background, and lessons learned from applying them in given situations are not the same thing.

You don’t learn about firearm retention from a grappler. You learn it from a grappler, that survived a near-death experience fighting for control over his weapon.

If practitioner A and practitioner B have the same martial arts training, but B has had to club, stab, and shoot people while applying that training— B now has a different background from A, and there are things B has now learned about fighting that only he has the knowledge to teach A. A has no concept of these evolutions in martial arts application, because everyone else he trains with only has MMA knowledge.

 

[drop bear]

By lifestyle—that also includes gangsters and insurgents. I don’t think they are all getting formal martial arts training.

I think it is well established that JJ is especially useful for police, given their procedures.

Martial arts background, and lessons learned from applying them in given situations are not the same thing.

You don’t learn about firearm retention from a grappler. You learn it from a grappler, that survived a near-death experience fighting for control over his weapon.

If practitioner A and practitioner B have the same martial arts training, but B has had to club, stab, and shoot people while applying that training— B now has a different background from A, and there are things B has now learned about fighting that only he has the knowledge to teach A. A has no concept of these evolutions in martial arts application, because everyone else he trains with only has MMA knowledge.

There are dense some that have formal training.

MMA fighter’s shooting sparks fears of biker gang violence in Australia

According to Nine News, a 27-year-old man was shot in the leg, after reaching for a machete, during a brawl on February 4th at the Logan Hyperdome Shopping

www.bloodyelbow.com

 

[Steve]

I don’t have patience for dropbear’s usual approach, which shouldnt surprise you given previous conversations.

He appreciates the Socratic method.

 

[drop bear]

He appreciates the Socratic method.

Which was wrestling.

" I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler" - Socrates

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are dense some that have formal training.

MMA fighter’s shooting sparks fears of biker gang violence in Australia

According to Nine News, a 27-year-old man was shot in the leg, after reaching for a machete, during a brawl on February 4th at the Logan Hyperdome Shopping

www.bloodyelbow.com

I think there might be some autocorrect interference here.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

There are dense some that have formal training.

MMA fighter’s shooting sparks fears of biker gang violence in Australia

According to Nine News, a 27-year-old man was shot in the leg, after reaching for a machete, during a brawl on February 4th at the Logan Hyperdome Shopping

www.bloodyelbow.com

And the Los Zetas cartel was trained by US SOF.

Doesn’t change the point.

 

[Buka]

Which was wrestling.

" I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler" - Socrates

Just a great quote.

 

[drop bear]

I think there might be some autocorrect interference here.

Should have been definitely. Which is a pretty big correction.

 

[drop bear]

And the Los Zetas cartel was trained by US SOF.

Doesn’t change the point.

Completely changes the point doesn't it?

I put it to you there are as many real world operators/police/gangsters doing combat sports as there are doing RBSD.

So to argue the depth of knowledge isn't there. Is kind of not really true.

And MMA training is just a fundamentally more efficient way to learn fighting. In that you basically fight people through as many ranges with as little rules as you can get away with.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Completely changes the point doesn't it?

I put it to you there are as many real world operators/police/gangsters doing combat sports as there are doing RBSD.

So to argue the depth of knowledge isn't there. Is kind of not really true.

And MMA training is just a fundamentally more efficient way to learn fighting. In that you basically fight people through as many ranges with as little rules as you can get away with.

Gangsters and insurgents aren’t doing RBSD, in the way you’re talking about it. They either figure it out instinctively maybe with some help of seasoned “colleagues”, or die. Soldiers and police DO have RBSD training the way we’re talking about it, along with proper MMA, and otherwise learn from near-death experiences in the same way. It is people who come back from those field experiences that advance RBSD, with knowledge they wouldn’t otherwise get in a dojo/gym. Evolution occurs when MMA expertise on the matt, meets real-world violence.
That RBSD is inherently superior to MMA has never been my argument.

In every single thread that we’ve had this discussion, my thesis has always been the same—you get your fundamentals from MMA training, you get the “software upgrades” and street/combat tweaks to those skills doing legit RBSD. One does not replace the other.

 

[drop bear]

Gangsters and insurgents aren’t doing RBSD, in the way you’re talking about it. They either figure it out instinctively maybe with some help of seasoned “colleagues”, or die. Soldiers and police DO have RBSD training the way we’re talking about it, along with proper MMA, and otherwise learn from near-death experiences in the same way. It is people who come back from those field experiences that advance RBSD, with knowledge they wouldn’t otherwise get in a dojo/gym. Evolution occurs when MMA expertise on the matt, meets real-world violence.
That RBSD is inherently superior to MMA has never been my argument.

In every single thread that we’ve had this discussion, my thesis has always been the same—you get your fundamentals from MMA training, you get the “software upgrades” and street/combat tweaks to those skills doing legit RBSD. One does not replace the other.

But you would get them in a gym. Because real world guys train in those gyms.

All this real world knowledge from soldiers and gangsters and so on
You can get from places soldiers and gangsters train.

And they train in combat sports gyms.

So this difference you are saying. Isn't really a difference.

There are clubs that actively support first line responders with free training. (Gangsters still have to pay though)

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limixedmartialarts.com

https://m.facebook.com/VJJAustralia/

 

[GreenieMeanie]

But you would get them in a gym. Because real world guys train in those gyms.

All this real world knowledge from soldiers and gangsters and so on
You can get from places soldiers and gangsters train.

And they train in combat sports gyms.

So this difference you are saying. Isn't really a difference.

There are clubs that actively support first line responders with free training. (Gangsters still have to pay though)

Check out Long Island MMA's FREE veteran program showcased on ABC News - Long Island MMA and Fitness Center

Check out Long Island MMA’s FREE veteran program showcased on ABC News ABC news came down to Long Island MMA to talk about our Veteran program […]

limixedmartialarts.com

https://m.facebook.com/VJJAustralia/

If you’re training with someone that has that experience, then yes, that is an avenue to absorb that knowledge—but that’s not an MMA gym’s purpose, nor the norm for MMA gyms.

It’s not like they have formal classes, where they focus on things like weapons retention and dealing with knives, and discuss things that you do in MMA that would get you killed in that situation. One thing commonly taught, is to create and wait for opportunities, not to force them. Sometimes you’re just gonna have to eat an elbow and a fist, to keep control of a gun.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Completely changes the point doesn't it?

I put it to you there are as many real world operators/police/gangsters doing combat sports as there are doing RBSD.

So to argue the depth of knowledge isn't there. Is kind of not really true.

And MMA training is just a fundamentally more efficient way to learn fighting. In that you basically fight people through as many ranges with as little rules as you can get away with.

I thought the argument was more that training doesn't offset the daily experience of those actually doing (in the original quote, it seemed to be referring to basically ruffians who fight daily). Did I misread it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you’re training with someone that has that experience, then yes, that is an avenue to absorb that knowledge—but that’s not an MMA gym’s purpose, nor the norm for MMA gyms.

It’s not like they have formal classes, where they focus on things like weapons retention and dealing with knives, and discuss things that you do in MMA that would get you killed in that situation. One thing commonly taught, is to create and wait for opportunities, not to force them. Sometimes you’re just gonna have to eat an elbow and a fist, to keep control of a gun.

I'd argue some of what is taught in classes purporting to deal with weapons is worse than just training good fight mechanics for the same amount of time.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Your post seems more argumentative than about making a point.

in what way?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I thought the argument was more that training doesn't offset the daily experience of those actually doing (in the original quote, it seemed to be referring to basically ruffians who fight daily). Did I misread it?

My OP categorized things on what’s trained.

MMA trains certain things, and RBSD trains certain things.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I'd argue some of what is taught in classes purporting to deal with weapons is worse than just training good fight mechanics for the same amount of time.

Well, what I’m referring to, is that MMA classes train mechanics—but in the context of the sport element, per that art.

You can apply those same mechanics to dealing with weapons, but it’s not something you’ll do instinctively necessarily, since you’ve been trained in a sports context. You have to think through and be shown how the skills you’re learned, apply to that context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, what I’m referring to, is that MMA classes train mechanics—but in the context of the sport element, per that art.

You can apply those same mechanics to dealing with weapons, but it’s not something you’ll do instinctively necessarily, since you’ve been trained in a sports context. You have to think through and be shown how the skills you’re learned, apply to that context.

I'd still argue that solid fundamentals that were never trained in that context will be more functional in a given context, than flawed fundamentals trained for that specific context.

Of course, solid fundamentals trained for the specific context are probably more functional.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I'd still argue that solid fundamentals that were never trained in that context will be more functional in a given context, than flawed fundamentals trained for that specific context.

Of course, solid fundamentals trained for the specific context are probably more functional.

Fundamentally, you should be training more or less the same fundamentals. It’s just a question of what you focus on. It’s like giving students a textbook to read, and then you cover in class which parts of the textbook are important for the purposes of the class.

And then you have a more advanced textbook, that mentions things the previous one doesn’t, but it won’t make sense to you unless you’ve already read the previous one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fundamentally, you should be training more or less the same fundamentals. It’s just a question of what you focus on. It’s like giving students a textbook to read, and then you cover in class which parts of the textbook are important for the purposes of the class.

And then you have a more advanced textbook, that mentions things the previous one doesn’t, but it won’t make sense to you unless you’ve already read the previous one.

Agreed - you should be. What I've seen in some places is that they are missing fundamentals, but working on more advanced material.