Capital Punishment: yay or nay?

[MA-Caver]

i agree with you here in terms of the idea of justice, however 'justice' as practiced by the judicial system is all too often based on outrage & revenge. until we find a way to deprive lawyers, judges, & juries of their basic emotions during a trial, they are going to at least partly decide the outcome based on those emotions. that's fine, there's no such thing as a perfect system, i just am not comfortable trusting human lives to that system.
jf

Well we could input all the laws and sentences for breaking the laws into computers and input all evidence and then let the computers decide... how about that??

It's impossible to remove the human element... except in the manner described above. You will not have complete justice without the range of human emotions in it. You don't punish your child unemotionally do you? No, you punish them because they done something against your rules and that made you mad because you've done the best you could to tell them what the rules are and the consequences if they break them. Your anger is naturally from frustration over having to repeatedly do so.
Yeah, it's a child and a child learns sometimes through repeated instruction reinforcement (positive and/or negative)... well these criminals are behaving like children no? But they're 10-100 times more violent than a child. Plus they're NOT children and have reached the age of consent and age of knowing right from wrong... yet they continue to defy the laws and cause pain and anguish for the survivors of their chosen victims.
Punishment should equal the crime.

 

[jarrod]

i never said to remove the human element from the judicial system, i just said that i personally don't trust humans to decide when another human deserves to die. if we could trust people to do that, we wouldn't have murderers in the first place.

jf

 

[MA-Caver]

i never said to remove the human element from the judicial system, i just said that i personally don't trust humans to decide when another human deserves to die. if we could trust people to do that, we wouldn't have murderers in the first place.

jf

Well then, who would you trust? Either you do or you don't re-elect the judges again or allow them to hold their places on the bench. If you don't trust someone (human) then you remove them from your presence, no?
We would have murderers anyway. The human mind/psyche is still far too animalistic to deny killing instincts. We hunt and we wage war with each other. Are these not examples of murder? Granted murder with a purpose (war overall not all individually). Millions of us however (thankfully) have learned to control/repress the animal side and be civilized. (after thought: how many of us civilized people have deep down inside actually wanted to kill and were perfectly capable of doing so but stayed their hand? After 9/11 we all cried for Bin Laden's head on a plate, was that a literal request... for some it probably was but we leave it to others to take care of it) ... It's the few thousands that still want to give in to it. THOSE are the ones we need to cull from our "herd".

The extent of the murder the amount of effort/violence that went into it... that is what we need to look at when trying to determine the death penalty. A single shot to the head is violent yes but didn't take much to do. Repeatedly bludgeoning/stabbing/shooting someone, maiming, mutilation, causing excessive suffering on the victims part... or just out of sheer randomness or murder for the sake of murder. These are things that must be weighed.

Humans should rightly judge other humans (like I said, who else?) and it's because we have rationality, higher forms of education, intelligence, compassion, understanding (of self and of the human psyche), etc. etc. we have all these things that make up what is GOOD about our species. But a few throwbacks want to walk around bashing in head just like the good ole' days, they're whats bad about our species. The tree of life needs pruning from time to time.

 

[KenpoTex]

We would have murderers anyway. The human mind/psyche is still far too animalistic to deny killing instincts. We hunt and we wage war with each other. Are these not examples of murder? Granted murder with a purpose (war overall not all individually).

I would submit that while murder is killing, not all acts of killing can be defined as murder.

 

[jarrod]

Well then, who would you trust? Either you do or you don't re-elect the judges again or allow them to hold their places on the bench. If you don't trust someone (human) then you remove them from your presence, no?
We would have murderers anyway. The human mind/psyche is still far too animalistic to deny killing instincts. .

my point exactly. 1) the human mind can't be trusted, imo, to hold the legal power of life & death over another after the fact. i'm not talking about the judge on the bench that can be voted out, i'm talking about all people. 2) when a criminal indulges in murder, he has debased himself as well as his victim. society should not debase itself as well.

We hunt and we wage war with each other. Are these not examples of murder?

no, i'm going to agree with kenpotex on this one.

(after thought: how many of us civilized people have deep down inside actually wanted to kill and were perfectly capable of doing so but stayed their hand? After 9/11 we all cried for Bin Laden's head on a plate, was that a literal request... for some it probably was but we leave it to others to take care of it)

i remember after i enlisted right after 9/11, i often told my friends that if i got the chance i was going to eat a taliban's heart. i wasn't kidding. funny that now i'm on a board arguing against the death penelty.

The extent of the murder the amount of effort/violence that went into it... that is what we need to look at when trying to determine the death penalty. A single shot to the head is violent yes but didn't take much to do. Repeatedly bludgeoning/stabbing/shooting someone, maiming, mutilation, causing excessive suffering on the victims part... or just out of sheer randomness or murder for the sake of murder. These are things that must be weighed.

so how many stabbings/bludgeonings warrants death? 3 stabs? 1? 67? any number is arbitrary. if an arbitrary number isn't chosen, the death penalty will be applied unevenly. justice applied unevenly isn't justice at all.

jf

 

[MA-Caver]

I would submit that while murder is killing, not all acts of killing can be defined as murder.

Like say... the death penalty??

 

[MA-Caver]

my point exactly. 1) the human mind can't be trusted, imo, to hold the legal power of life & death over another after the fact. i'm not talking about the judge on the bench that can be voted out, i'm talking about all people. 2) when a criminal indulges in murder, he has debased himself as well as his victim. society should not debase itself as well.

I don't think it's debasement of society when society as a whole determines the punishment to whatever crime that has been committed. Society determines what is a crime. Remember that it's legal to have sex with a child in Thailand and illegal here in the states (fortunately in a lot of other places too). So rightly so society determines the punishment for whatever it is that they deem as a crime.

no, i'm going to agree with kenpotex on this one.

See reply to kenpotex's post.

i remember after i enlisted right after 9/11, i often told my friends that if i got the chance i was going to eat a taliban's heart. i wasn't kidding. funny that now i'm on a board arguing against the death penelty.

yeah, funny how that works out ( :wink1: ) but you wanted justice, you wanted ... revenge?? But either way your statement of desiring to eat an enemy's heart helps my argument about the human animal in all of us... it's there.

so how many stabbings/bludgeonings warrants death? 3 stabs? 1? 67? any number is arbitrary. if an arbitrary number isn't chosen, the death penalty will be applied unevenly. justice applied unevenly isn't justice at all.
jf

I agree here... so, again, society is the one that determines the level of justice/punishment to fit the crime. It's obvious that we represent two of the many sides of society and are calmly, rationally arguing/discussing it out.
But admittedly I don't think either of us is right... nor do I think either of us is wrong.
:asian:

 

[jarrod]

Like say... the death penalty??

sometimes yes, sometimes no...just like some wars are justified, some aren't, sometimes it's okay to kill an animal, sometimes it's not. so far the government hasn't done a great job of determining when war is justified, i don't really trust them to do any better with the death penelty.

yeah, funny how that works out ( :wink1: ) but you wanted justice, you wanted ... revenge?? But either way your statement of desiring to eat an enemy's heart helps my argument about the human animal in all of us... it's there.

oh i agree, we all are animals down at the core...including judges & juries. at the time i wasn't thinking about the difference between justice & revenge, i just wanted action.

I agree here... so, again, society is the one that determines the level of justice/punishment to fit the crime. It's obvious that we represent two of the many sides of society and are calmly, rationally arguing/discussing it out.
But admittedly I don't think either of us is right... nor do I think either of us is wrong.
:asian:

ideally, yes, right & wrong could be determined by a vote & we'd all sleep well at night. but morality doesn't always conform to social sentiment. in the end, it's not society as a whole trying each & every case, it's a judge on a bench.

i also agree that you & i aren't right or wrong, it is a matter of personal values. it's always interesting hear the other person's perspective.

 

[MA-Caver]

i also agree that you & i aren't right or wrong, it is a matter of personal values. it's always interesting hear the other person's perspective.

I appreciate that as much as you do :asian:
So, question is... whose "perspective" should we adhere to? That's one of the wonderful things about a democracy that there are two (sometimes more) sides to each story and two views and the majority rules (in a manner of speaking -- and literally I guess). So, there is no right or wrong is there? A majority will look and say this is right and a majority will look and say that is wrong.
Living in a democracy at least allows us to have a voice/vote in determining that for the rest of society, because we are supposed to be that society that decides.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Whenever this question comes up -- Do you believe in capital punishment? yay or nay -- other items get thrown in. Soon the conversation diverts from what appears to be the most just to which way is the cheapest.

 

[KempoGuy06]

ill take the Ron White view "if you kill someone we will kill you back". I support that capital punishment 100%. I believe though that it should be made more brutal. my 2 cents

B

 

[Big Don]

ill take the Ron White view "if you kill someone we will kill you back". I support that capital punishment 100%. I believe though that it should be made more brutal. my 2 cents

B

Were capital punishment brutal and scary as hell, the deterrent value would increase exponentially. Everyone has both, had shots and gone to sleep, which, is what lethal injection looks like, which, is why it isn't scary.

 

[MA-Caver]

The brutality of some executions is a good deterrent I think as well. Back in the "old west" the idea of dropping 4-5 feet coming to a sudden stop with a rope around your neck probably deterred a lot more murders than there were. The idea of the average citizen being able to shoot back was just as good a deterrent. It's not only the one that you're shooting at (if you were a murdering type) but the others around them that'll shoot you back in fear of their own lives.
The lethal injections I never understood. Such a calm and peaceful way to go. Though those who are against it say that the one subjected to it is in agony from the combination of chemicals injected to their bodies. How would they know if they're already asleep and damned near comatose by the time the deadly mix is injected?

 

[KempoGuy06]

The brutality of some executions is a good deterrent I think as well. Back in the "old west" the idea of dropping 4-5 feet coming to a sudden stop with a rope around your neck probably deterred a lot more murders than there were. The idea of the average citizen being able to shoot back was just as good a deterrent. It's not only the one that you're shooting at (if you were a murdering type) but the others around them that'll shoot you back in fear of their own lives.
The lethal injections I never understood. Such a calm and peaceful way to go. Though those who are against it say that the one subjected to it is in agony from the combination of chemicals injected to their bodies. How would they know if they're already asleep and damned near comatose by the time the deadly mix is injected?

very good point. It makes no sense and from what ive learned they are nearly comatose before they get the leathal juice.

I think they should set up a deathmatch of sorts. Have the ten people who have been on deathrow the longest get in a cage and fight to the death. the last one standing is safe for an entire year until the next match. if they refuse to fight shoot 'em. sell it on pay per view. Watch out UFC!!!

B

 

[MA-Caver]

very good point. It makes no sense and from what ive learned they are nearly comatose before they get the leathal juice.

I think they should set up a deathmatch of sorts. Have the ten people who have been on deathrow the longest get in a cage and fight to the death. the last one standing is safe for an entire year until the next match. if they refuse to fight shoot 'em. sell it on pay per view. Watch out UFC!!!

B

It may just come to that some day. Don't be at all surprised.

 

[KenpoTex]

In all seriousness, I would have no problem whatsoever if hanging, firing squads, etc. were to again become the standard method of execution. I believe there would definitely be more of a "deterrent factor" there.

On a side-note, Utah used a firing squad to execute someone as recently as '95 (IIRC).

 

[mook jong man]

I used to sort of be on the fence with this issue , but a couple of days ago in Sydney something pretty bad happened that changed my mind .

Some maggot did a home invasion on four asian students sharing a flat , he got in by following one of the girls through the foyer door as she was buzzed in by her flatmates , he then put a knife against her throat and forced his way in when they opened the door to the flat.

In their living room he made the 3 girls and 1 boy strip , one of the girls was the girlfriend of the boy , he raped her 3 times and the boyfriend twice and also committed an oral sex act on the boy all in view of each other . He also stole $200 off them .

This went on for approximately 70 mins , in an effort to escape this horror the girlfriend jumped off the balconey 25 metres up , she died instantly and the boyfriend jumped off too and sustained broken legs and pelvis and head injuries , he's alive but probably wishes he was dead .

What makes it even more heartbreaking is that the girl was an only child , and her mother lost everything in the chinese earthquake , her house , her business and now her daughter .

The cops have caught this piece of human excrement but i fear now we will hear a big sob story of how he was abused as a child and got addicted to alcohol and drugs etc , you all know the drill .

So for animals like this bloke , yeah kill the son of a ***** , you would be doing the human race a favour , or at least let the relatives of the victims in the cell with the bastard for 5 minutes . We used to hang crims in this country maybe its about time it was brought back .

 

[MJS]

I used to sort of be on the fence with this issue , but a couple of days ago in Sydney something pretty bad happened that changed my mind .

Some maggot did a home invasion on four asian students sharing a flat , he got in by following one of the girls through the foyer door as she was buzzed in by her flatmates , he then put a knife against her throat and forced his way in when they opened the door to the flat.

In their living room he made the 3 girls and 1 boy strip , one of the girls was the girlfriend of the boy , he raped her 3 times and the boyfriend twice and also committed an oral sex act on the boy all in view of each other . He also stole $200 off them .

This went on for approximately 70 mins , in an effort to escape this horror the girlfriend jumped off the balconey 25 metres up , she died instantly and the boyfriend jumped off too and sustained broken legs and pelvis and head injuries , he's alive but probably wishes he was dead .

What makes it even more heartbreaking is that the girl was an only child , and her mother lost everything in the chinese earthquake , her house , her business and now her daughter .

The cops have caught this piece of human excrement but i fear now we will hear a big sob story of how he was abused as a child and got addicted to alcohol and drugs etc , you all know the drill .

So for animals like this bloke , yeah kill the son of a ***** , you would be doing the human race a favour , or at least let the relatives of the victims in the cell with the bastard for 5 minutes . We used to hang crims in this country maybe its about time it was brought back .

Well, this is certainly a horrible thing. The thing that bothers me the most is the part I bolded. Frankly, I hate that, because that is usually the first thing that the lawyers who are trying to defending scumbag, usually say. I'm sorry, that is a huge cop out for them to use. I find it hard to believe that anyone else who may have been abused or had a hard life, went out and did what that guy did.

If someone really wants to change their life they will, and IMHO, this guy didn't. By all means, if it is proven, without any doubt, that this guy did this, then forget the very lengthy appeal process and do away with the guy.