BEST Argument for Death Penalty I've Seen!

[Kempogeek]

Timothy McViegh talked about the children he killed as "collateral damage".

When collateral damage is "expected" there is nothing "unintentional" about it. Also, intent can be a very subject thing...yet the end result is the same. Some parents get to bury the peices of their children and live with that horror for the rest of their lives.

Thus, I think it is hypocritical to put one person for death make another a hero for the same thing.

Moreover, what good comes from putting someone to death?

My uncle is a guard at the Oak Park Heights maximum security prison in MN. Inmates with life sentances for horrible crimes can get educated there. They can go to church, get counseling, and they can willingly perform some acts of restitution.

If given a life sentance, there is a chance to make amends. Leave death for God to decide...

Im not going to tackle the issue of playing God as far as executing a proven guilty person. Everything you said about getting an education, going to church etc. is something those girls will never get to do now. It doesn't seem fair that anyone who commits murder can get all that and more while their victims are laid to rest long before their time. No amount of act of restitution can ever forgive his act. BTW, did God decide to put those girls to death and sent Hobbs as the messenger?

 

[MJS]

Yet since there are cases of people being wrongly put in prison, as you've conceeded, then there is doubt concerning their guilt, so there should be appeals. Even without such cases, there is a right to appeal you know.

True, and I for one, would hate to be sitting on death row, with the chance of getting executed, when I was not guilty of the crime. However, you have guys on DR that are guilty and yet they're appealing. Michael Ross, CT's first execution in over 40 yrs. was guilty of killing a number of women in the 1980's, yet he was allowed to appeal the process countless times. Why? I guess a good question would be, how many times is someone allowed to appeal? As I said, if there is no doubt that the person is guilty, why the long process?

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

BTW, did God decide to put those girls to death and sent Hobbs as the messenger?

I sure hope not!

Yet, there are many that live that probably should die and many that die that probably should live.

I'm not wise enough to make that distinction.

My heart aches for these girls and I feel outrage at there deaths...the same outrage I would feel at the murder of any child whether its committed by a person or the state.

Again, why execute some and celebrate others? Are some children just not worth as much? I reject this hypocrisy.

upnorthkyosa

ps - forty years of guilt can make one wish for death...and that should be revenge enough...and it doesn't take away the opportunity to find some good in this tragedy.

 

[sgtmac_46]

That is very interesting. The current pope and his predecessor disagreed. There is a reason why they think moral relativism is a giant black hole. It is very reminiscent of Darth Vader...soon the list of neccessary evils becomes so long that one ceases to be "good".

Brush off what you wish, but to me, a dead child is a dead child is a dead child...

To you, yes. But that's the key. You aren't charged with making those decisions (thank god) because you'd constantly be stuck in ethical quagmires that would lead to nothing but indecision that would result in the deaths of MORE people, all so you could avoid the slightest hint of hypocrisy and go to sleep feeling morally superior. Popes have the luxury, being able to pick and choose their moral causes (being no real consequence for inaction, as they have LIFETIMES to debate moral and ethical stands). Leaders of states don't.

As for the ad hominem, i guess calling me Darth Vader is more timely than calling me Hitler, that's the usual leftist mantra. I'll give you points for being contemporary.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Um, are you referring to this....

to which I did respond with this...

I guess I wasn't "dealing directly with the case" enough. Would you prefer me to put up neon arrows?

Sure, i'll spell it out for you. If you're making the claim that the death penalty is not a deterrent, then support that assertion. Use whatever case study or evidence that you desire and we'll debate it. Try to stay on task, however, as I hate to begin debating one thing, and then have someone try to shift focus at the last minute.

So a debate on whether the death penalty CAN be or IS an effective deterrent it is. I'll be awaiting your reply.

 

[MJS]

So a debate on whether the death penalty CAN be or IS an effective deterrent it is. I'll be awaiting your reply.

IMHO, I think it could be a great deterrent, depending on the person. As a LEO, I'm sure you've seen some people out there, that once you pull out the OC or the Taser, they drop to the ground like a puppy, out of fear of getting shocked, while others will not, and still continue to disregard your orders.

The same can be said with the death penalty. Im sure there are some hard core people out there who don't think twice about killing, raping, etc. someone, so when they themselves are faced with death, they don't think twice about looking it right in the face.

Just my .02.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

And those are the people who probably "deserve" it most.

 

[Makalakumu]

As for the ad hominem, i guess calling me Darth Vader is more timely than calling me Hitler, that's the usual leftist mantra. I'll give you points for being contemporary.

Oh come now...Darth Vader is just an analogy. It is not a label in any way.

Also, I believe that one can be decisive and not compromise their moral values. Putting someone in prison for life is very decisive. So is giving them a chance to do some restitution.

How would that cause more deaths?

 

[Tgace]

Funny how people can say "moral relativism" is wrong when it supports their cause, but then say "we cant judge" when it does not.

 

[Makalakumu]

Funny how people can say "moral relativism" is wrong when it supports their cause, but then say "we cant judge" when it does not.

Yeah, that is interesting...

 

[Makalakumu]

And those are the people who probably "deserve" it most.

If someone killed my children, I would feel rage and want to kill that person. In fact, it may take physical force to restrain me...

I think alot of people would feel this way...most in my opinion.

Agreed?

If this is true, then what separates someone who advocates for the death penalty from a suicide bomber?

It is well documented by the Israelis that persons who have experienced tragedy are targeted by various opposition groups because suicide bombing fulfills that need for revenge. I imagine the same thing is happening in Iraq...there are certainly a (large) number of innocent children being killed and plenty of greiving parents.

Some similarities...

1. Both are revenge killings.

2. Both are indiscriminate (the death penalty is in the sense that innocents are put to death...).

3. Both are seen as deterrents (suicide bombings are seen as deterrents in the sense that they drive the forces that caused the death of children away).

4. Both unfairly label and target people who may have been uninvolved with the act in question (again, innocent people are put to death in this country and those innocent people are most likely to be from a minority group since the death penalty is applied disproportionately to those groups).

We expect countries where suicide bombings occur to "reign in the terrorists" in the name of morality. Yet, that same morality is tossed away in our country when it comes to the death penalty. Shouldn't the State have a responsability to restrain people's desire/ability to kill in revenge in all circumstances?

If not, then we have no right to tell a suicide bomber to stop what they are doing.

upnorthkyosa

PS - perhaps now, the wisdom of Ghandi's quote, "An eye for an eye makes the world blind," is a little clearer.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Oh come now...Darth Vader is just an analogy. It is not a label in any way.

Also, I believe that one can be decisive and not compromise their moral values. Putting someone in prison for life is very decisive. So is giving them a chance to do some restitution.

How would that cause more deaths?

An analogy is a comparison. I was being compared, or analogized, to Darth Vader. Now, come on, lets at least have the moral courage to stand behind our statements.

As far as Ghandi was concerned, he was a really inspiring figure, but not much of a realistic leader. Idealists typically live in a fantasy world where if they just care enough, the world will be a really good place. Idealism is a great concept, as long as the world is filled with idealists. Unfortunately, idealists can only be free to be idealists, when hard men protect them, despite their idealism.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell.

I defy anyone to call Orwell a fascist. Keep in mind he wrote this phrase after returning from Spain, where he got shot in the neck FIGHTING the fascists.

It's funny that idealists always compare rough men to the nazis, but forget about the rough men that saved the world FROM the Nazis. Without those rough men, who also value liberty and justice, there could be no idealism.

I'll make a deal with you. You keep dreaming the dream, and i'll deal with the world on it's own terms so that you are free to keep dreaming. Just leave the dealing with vermin to me, it's my lot in life. If it makes you feel better, you can say i'm doing it in my name, not in yours. I'll even note your protest. If you have a better way that DOES work (instead of one that you wish would work) let me know.

 

[Tgace]

Allong the lines of "A Cop with no complaints filed against him isnt doing anything." aint it??

 

[Makalakumu]

1. An analogy is a comparison. I was being compared, or analogized, to Darth Vader. Now, come on, lets at least have the moral courage to stand behind our statements.

2. As far as Ghandi was concerned, he was a really inspiring figure, but not much of a realistic leader. Idealists typically live in a fantasy world where if they just care enough, the world will be a really good place. Idealism is a great concept, as long as the world is filled with idealists. Unfortunately, idealists can only be free to be idealists, when hard men protect them, despite their idealism.

3. "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell.

4. I defy anyone to call Orwell a fascist. Keep in mind he wrote this phrase after returning from Spain, where he got shot in the neck FIGHTING the fascists.

5. It's funny that idealists always compare rough men to the nazis, but forget about the rough men that saved the world FROM the Nazis. Without those rough men, who also value liberty and justice, there could be no idealism.

6. I'll make a deal with you. You keep dreaming the dream, and i'll deal with the world on it's own terms so that you are free to keep dreaming. Just leave the dealing with vermin to me, it's my lot in life. If it makes you feel better, you can say i'm doing it in my name, not in yours. I'll even note your protest. If you have a better way that DOES work (instead of one that you wish would work) let me know.

1. Not you, your ideas. They are separate. I assume that you are a good man.

2. I don't think you know very much about men like Ghandi or M.L. King. They had more courage then you'll ever possess...me too for that matter.

3. Self defense is one thing, vengeance is another. You confuse the two.

4. Here is a good working definition of fascism...

The 14 Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The shoe doesn't fit Orwell, but it fits many others...

5. Some would argue that our ideals and morals allowed us to prevail against the Nazi. My grandfather included...a man who actually stormed the beaches of Normandy. He wasn't a rough man. He was a kid, who wanted to do what was right. How like our founding fathers! And you sit here and trash that idealism...that is shameful.

6. No, I'll make a deal with you...I'll keep my idealism AND act upon it AND make this country a better place, and I'll leave you to spout the same things that every petty dictator in the world spews. You are selling Americans short.

Again, when does the list of neccessary evils become so long that one ceases to be good?

 

[Makalakumu]

Some people act as if idealism is weakness, but what it really shows is that they don't have the guts to follow through with what they believe.

upnorthkyosa

 

[arnisador]

Allong the lines of "A Cop with no complaints filed against him isnt doing anything." aint it??

I always say that a teacher who generates no complaints--offends no one--isn't trying hard enough.

 

[Tgace]

Some people act as if idealism is weakness, but what it really shows is that they don't have the guts to follow through with what they believe.

upnorthkyosa

He places his life between you the "evil" of society. Not speaking for him, but many do it out of the "idealism" that they are there to protect the society/culture/nation and people they love....so take your sanctimonious.....
guts!? Whats your experience in that department?

forget it you have joined the list.

 

[sgtmac_46]

1. Not you, your ideas. They are separate. I assume that you are a good man.

2. I don't think you know very much about men like Ghandi or M.L. King. They had more courage then you'll ever possess...me too for that matter.

Courage, devoid of effective action, is useless. Ghandi and M.L. King were only successful because they lived in a (mostly) civilized society that they could appeal to. They would have been completely ineffective in Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia. In fact, you'd have never heard of them. Again, the tools used must fit the problem. A point I keep trying to make to idealists, as they keep attempt to use the wrong tactics for given problems.

For example, the idea of conflict resolution, great idea when it applies. Yet, all conflict is not solvable using conflict resolution methods. For example, how do you apply conflict resolution methods if you are a woman who is being attacked by Ted Bundy, for example. What misunderstand lead to this situation, that you can simply fix by properly negotiating? Same with passive resistance, it works if your attackers have a conscience. How'd it work out at Tienaman Square? Did it stop those tanks? Wrong tactic.

3. Self defense is one thing, vengeance is another. You confuse the two.

I confuse nothing. Vengence is irrelavent, and is based on an emotional response. A murderer of children is not worth the effort to keep them alive, they are threat to society if free, and a burden to society if incarcerated for life. The logical thing to do is to kill them, and spend the money that would have been spent on them to build schools and educate children. That's justice. While you're at it, harvest their organs so that others may live, that is also a way of salvaging a wasted life. It's no more vengence that removing a malignant tumor is vengence.

4. Here is a good working definition of fascism...


The shoe doesn't fit Orwell, but it fits many others...

Again, this obsession with fascism by the left. The world is much more complex than this bipolar idea that there are only two kinds of people...People that agree with you and fascists.

5. Some would argue that our ideals and morals allowed us to prevail against the Nazi. My grandfather included...a man who actually stormed the beaches of Normandy. He wasn't a rough man. He was a kid, who wanted to do what was right. How like our founding fathers! And you sit here and trash that idealism...that is shameful.

Our ideals were our motivator, what beat fascism was superior production, brave fighting men, and overwhelming force. Ideals mean nothing on a battle field. Your grandfather, who is worthy of respect, didn't do what he did at Normandy for ideals. He may have brought those with him, but he did what he did our of necessity. And lets not be coy about what he did. He took the role of our nations sharp edge of the spear. He killed men, so that others might live. He executed lethal force for his country, bringing death to it's enemies so that others may live. Your grandfather did what rough men do, he killed. But he did so out of love...love for his friends, for his country and for his own life. There's nothing dishonorable about that and we salute him.

I trash nothing, but the idea that simply believing that if you care enough, it will change the world. Actions change the world, not dreams. Having an ideal, and end goal, is worthy. Simply having a false view of how the world SHOULD be, that's not in line with the way it is, however, is delusional. I think I understand the founding fathers AND your grandfather better than you.

6. No, I'll make a deal with you...I'll keep my idealism AND act upon it AND make this country a better place, and I'll leave you to spout the same things that every petty dictator in the world spews. You are selling Americans short.

Yep, here we go. Simply call those who disagree with you fascists and dictators. Ok, you deal with the murderer and the rapist and the child killer on your own. I doubt you've ever even met one. That's what's pathetic, your idealism is based on books and movies and what you read on the internet. It's why you aren't taken seriously on this topic.

Have you even seen the dead body of a murdered child abused and tortured by it's step father, and finally suffocated because it wouldn't quit crying? Have you looked that same smug, whiney, SOB in the eye who did it, and heard him lie his butt off to your face about how the baby "accidentally" died? Have you seen the same guy in court, after he made a false claim to his attorney that the police threatened him to get a statement?

I can assure you, you have not. And you have the gall to tell me i'm a coward and a petty dictator and that YOU will make the world a better place. You haven't said ONE thing that shows you have the slightest clue where to start. Youth and vigor are no substitute for an action plan. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your youthful idealism. Go recycle some cans and volunteer at a no-kill animal shelter and leave the real problems of the world to those who understand them.

Again, when does the list of neccessary evils become so long that one ceases to be good?

Only when they become destructive to the ends.

 

[Makalakumu]

We certainly are making lots of assumptions about people we've never met...

From your writing though, I can say this;

1. You are throwing up a charicature of courage that devalues the contributions of a great many people. You sleep well at night because of the greater contribution of people who are not at all rough.
2. Sometimes, the ends do not justify the means. Action without belief is immoral.
3. Other then being a charicature, this "rough men" propaganda is just an excuse. It's a rationalization to slip by what you know to be good, to justify the means...no matter how horrible.
4. By all means, get the bad guys. Watch them be replaced by new faces. Why? Because you just don't understand the things that can make a society great. In the end, when you are old and retired, you may look back at the society you helped shape and wonder what happened to it. How did we fall so low? Who will be left holding the bag? Someone else, no doubt...

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

He places his life between you the "evil" of society. Not speaking for him, but many do it out of the "idealism" that they are there to protect the society/culture/nation and people they love....so take your sanctimonious.....
guts!? Whats your experience in that department?

forget it you have joined the list.

Sanctimonious! Nope, sorry. The difference is that I try, really hard, all of the time, to do what I think is right...and I don't make excuses when I fail. My experience is relevant in that it equals any contribution you have made because of the above effort...despite our differences this is true.

Wow, this is getting way too personal, I'm outta here.