Capital Punishment: yay or nay?

[MJS]

You're probably right, I think I'll start a chapter of Murderers Anonymous for those poor killers who really want to turn their lives around. I mean if OJ can do it, then there's hope for everyone.

Maybe I'm reading wrong, but I can't help but to pick up a hint of sarcasm here. You know, if people were really interested in turning their lives around, maybe, just maybe there wouldn't be so many repeat offenders. And gee, its a bit funny, because there was a home invasion here in CT. where the scumbag decided to kill both women because he was afraid he'd be ID'd by the 2 women. So he shoots one, fortunately she survived and the other..well, sadly he took her to an isolated location where he killed here.

Hmm...and what was that about turning their lives around and having no remorse to human life?

 

[stickarts]

There are definately people that it would seem that we would all be better off without. Two big issues I have a hard time getting around are 1) Who am i to judge if a life should be taken for whatever the reason. 2) Getting it wrong and putting someone to death that was actually innocent.
What if you were that innocent person being put to death? Would you still be for capital punishment?
Tough issues that i don't think can be taken lightly.
I can't claim to know the right answer, or even if there is a right answer.

 

[jarrod]

4) Build more prisons to hold the never ending flow of people who find a life of crime more appealing than being good.

5) Release people who supposedly have changed their ways, and hope that they are sincere and don't run out and pick up where they left off.

while prison overpopulation is a huge problem, new prisons aren't being built to house scores of murderers. prison over population is a direct result of the war on drugs, which needs to end, & poor economic conditions.

releasing prisoners is the ultimate goal. the problem is that half the country views prisons as a punishment, the other half views it as rehabilitation, & the prison system ends up failing to fully accomplish either. the thing is, the two are not mutually exclusive. take away the weight rooms & the t.v. make the only pastimes available vocational/educational training. maybe allow 20min a day to exercise, & 30 minutes to watch the news. take away the internet except for class related use, & maybe personal e-mail as a reward. eliminate any social time that isn't structured. i.e., bridge club, history club, whatever. suddlenly there is less time to learn tricks of the trade from other cons, less violence (which perpetuates more violence) less leisure time, & more opportunities upon release.

jf

 

[tshadowchaser]

I solidly support the death penalty for some crimes:
Mass murder
Terrorism within this country
Rape of young children
And a few others

 

[MJS]

while prison overpopulation is a huge problem, new prisons aren't being built to house scores of murderers. prison over population is a direct result of the war on drugs, which needs to end, & poor economic conditions.

Well, until drugs are either deemed legal or illegal, the 'war' will most likely continue. People would probably put marijuana in the category of things to be legal, while crack is in the illegal category. Fine and dandy I suppose, until someone is so out of it, being under the influence of weed, that some tragedy happens. Then the cries of make it all illegal again will be heard. And yes, alcohol is just as bad, so again, damned if we do, damned if we don't. No matter what road is taken, something will happen.

releasing prisoners is the ultimate goal. the problem is that half the country views prisons as a punishment, the other half views it as rehabilitation, & the prison system ends up failing to fully accomplish either. the thing is, the two are not mutually exclusive. take away the weight rooms & the t.v. make the only pastimes available vocational/educational training. maybe allow 20min a day to exercise, & 30 minutes to watch the news. take away the internet except for class related use, & maybe personal e-mail as a reward. eliminate any social time that isn't structured. i.e., bridge club, history club, whatever. suddlenly there is less time to learn tricks of the trade from other cons, less violence (which perpetuates more violence) less leisure time, & more opportunities upon release.

jf

Amen! I'm with you on that one. The amount of 'free' time while in jail is simply amazing. Maybe if it was made to be a place that isn't fun to be at, people would have a different outlook.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

like many others, i'm okay with it in theory but opposed to it in practice. nietzsche made an interesting arguement, i think it was in beyond good & evil. essentially, he argued that the problem with capital punishment was that it taught society that killing wasn't wrong, only that killing for the wrong reasons is wrong.

For what it's worth that bolded part pretty much jives with my own philosophy *shrug*

Why?

Because

but don's post does make me think of an intersting point: is punishment & revenge the same thing? is the goal of punishment to restore harmony or to make society feel better?

jf

Neither revenge NOR punishment has much of anything to do with it at all.

it is, plain and simply, about society's SURVIVAL: This person has killed productive,innocent members of our society and is a high risk to do so again. How many more innocent people are YOU ( general "you" not necessarily jarrod)comfortable with murdering by letting this diseased lifeform live and get paroled so that s/he can get at THEM?

Anybody noticing a glitch in the system here? Something to do with the survival of a functioning society( insofar as human societies are ever "Functional")?

 

[Ray]

while prison overpopulation is a huge problem, new prisons aren't being built to house scores of murderers. prison over population is a direct result of the war on drugs, which needs to end, & poor economic conditions.

If there is a "war" on drugs, it is in words only...

The quantity of people in prision is directly correlated to the number of people breaking the law.

 

[Ray]

like many others, i'm okay with it in theory but opposed to it in practice. nietzsche made an interesting arguement...

My favorite line about Nietzche is found in the movie "Blazing Saddles."

 

[jarrod]

For what it's worth that bolded part pretty much jives with my own philosophy *shrug*

Why?

Because





Neither revenge NOR punishment has much of anything to do with it at all.

it is, plain and simply, about society's SURVIVAL: This person has killed productive,innocent members of our society and is a high risk to do so again. How many more innocent people are YOU ( general "you" not necessarily jarrod)comfortable with murdering by letting this diseased lifeform live and get paroled so that s/he can get at THEM?

Anybody noticing a glitch in the system here? Something to do with the survival of a functioning society( insofar as human societies are ever "Functional")?

the part you bolded is my personal philosophy as well, & i suspect is the philosophy of most people.

the problem lies in the fact that the law is absolute, but it is applied by human beings who are not, & are therefore liable to impose their own prejudices, preconceptions, & judgements independent of the law.

i agree that survival of society is important, but there are other ways to insure it's survival. life imprisonment is an option, as is allowing society to defend itself.

insuring the survival of society also mean insuring that no innocent person is wrongly executed.

If there is a "war" on drugs, it is in words only...

The quantity of people in prision is directly correlated to the number of people breaking the law.

that's true, but there is not necessarily a correlation between law & morality. what i mean is that not everything that is illegal is wrong, & not everything that is wrong is illegal.

jf

 

[Ray]

i agree that survival of society is important, but there are other ways to insure it's survival. life imprisonment is an option, as is allowing society to defend itself.

insuring the survival of society also mean insuring that no innocent person is wrongly executed.

Jeffery Dahmer (sp?): was he executed in prison? Was he "rightly" executed or "wrongly" executed...apparrently not innocent...

It's just not a realistic view to suppose that life imprisonment will bring any more justice than executions do. There have been several people, rightly imprisioned for serious crimes who were later set free only to commit further henious crimes. Life imprisonment doesn't really mean life imprisonment..

that's true, but there is not necessarily a correlation between law & morality. what i mean is that not everything that is illegal is wrong, & not everything that is wrong is illegal.

Which is exactly why we should go beyond the law's requirements (since it is the definition of what society has decided is wrong) and avoid the very appearance of evil.

 

[jarrod]

Jeffery Dahmer (sp?): was he executed in prison? Was he "rightly" executed or "wrongly" executed...apparrently not innocent...

It's just not a realistic view to suppose that life imprisonment will bring any more justice than executions do. There have been several people, rightly imprisioned for serious crimes who were later set free only to commit further henious crimes. Life imprisonment doesn't really mean life imprisonment.

jeffery dahmer & serial killers in general represent a very small portion of murderers. i'm not one of those people who is upset about every single execution; i don't miss dahmer being on the planet at all. but i would rather see serial killers serve life in prison than see innocent people executed.

also, i should have specified that i was referring to life imprisonment without parole. part of the reason why true life imprisonment is rare is because of the many people convicted of victimless crimes (hence the reference to the drug war) clogging up the prison system.

Which is exactly why we should go beyond the law's requirements (since it is the definition of what society has decided is wrong) and avoid the very appearance of evil.

but law is not the definition of what society has decided is wrong. even if it were, society is often incorrect about what is wrong or right.

law can be what society has decided is wrong; it can also be what a few people have determined is profitiable; it can be what the government has decided is a threat to it's power; it can be a means of oppression. right & wrong have never correlated exactly to what is legal or illegal.

it was never right to own slaves, or wrong for women to vote. likewise the vast majority of people believe that lying & infidelity are wrong, yet these acts aren't illegal.

jf

 

[Archangel M]

I think murder will pretty much always remain "wrong".

 

[Makalakumu]

I think murder will pretty much always remain "wrong".

Unless its for the "right" reasons...

Still want to give the State power over life or death?

Who do you want deciding who to kill? What if you disagree?

 

[Archangel M]

Murder:

1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

 

[jarrod]

so let's say someone breaks into your house, & you pull out a gun. he turns & runs, & in a panic you shoot anyway. hell, maybe you had a beer or 3. maybe the perpetrator is someone you know, somebody that everyone knows you don't particularly care for. you may not have had malice aforethought, but that won't stop the prosecutor from arguing that you did. guess what? you're a murderer. would you like the chair or the needle?

in this case, it was wrong to shoot, but i don't think the person in this scenario deserves to die for it.

jf

 

[Archangel M]

In a case like that the state wouldnt be persuing the death penalty, lets not grasp too far.

 

[jarrod]

by your assertion, murder is murder. who draws the line as to which murders deserve the death penelty & which don't? "the law" is the standard answer, but the real answer is a judge, a flesh & blood human being just like anyone else.

on a side note, it's good to have another night owl on here. i get tired of checking the forums twenty times a night & not having anything to post.

jf

 

[Jade Tigress]

Jeffery Dahmer (sp?): was he executed in prison? Was he "rightly" executed or "wrongly" executed...apparrently not innocent...

It's just not a realistic view to suppose that life imprisonment will bring any more justice than executions do. There have been several people, rightly imprisioned for serious crimes who were later set free only to commit further henious crimes. Life imprisonment doesn't really mean life imprisonment..

Which is exactly why we should go beyond the law's requirements (since it is the definition of what society has decided is wrong) and avoid the very appearance of evil.

Dahmer wasn't executed, he was beaten to death by another inmate.

Anyway, I support capital punishment as just that, a punishment, not as a deterrent. But indisputable proof of guilt is necessary, and that seems to be the issue, the taking of the life of an innocent person. In the Dahmer case, as well as Gacy, Bundy, Gein, and other notorious serial killers, there is no doubt as to the guilt of thier heinous crimes.

Life on death row is no picnic, it's a life of solitary confinement, ****** for the inmate, expensive for the rest of us. Punishment should be swift and fit the crime.

 

[MJS]

Jeffery Dahmer (sp?): was he executed in prison? Was he "rightly" executed or "wrongly" executed...apparrently not innocent...

It's just not a realistic view to suppose that life imprisonment will bring any more justice than executions do. There have been several people, rightly imprisioned for serious crimes who were later set free only to commit further henious crimes. Life imprisonment doesn't really mean life imprisonment..

There have been many cases where an inmate, whether he is in prison for life, 20yrs or on death row, have been killed by other inmates due to the nature of the crime they did.

As for the other part of your post...please share what you propose is the better solution. If killing them is wrong, and keeping them locked for life is wrong, what do we do with them? Let them out? So they can kill again or do other crimes?

Like I said...its people like that, that have NO remorse for anything. Keep them locked up, where they won't endanger the public.

 

[Makalakumu]

Murder:

1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Why do some people think abortion is murder?

I'm saying that because I don't think that you can quote a definition of murder and expect agreement.

With that being said, I think that an all out proscription on the state taking life, is warrented.

In the state I live in, they couldn't tie my shoe. How can we expect them to lawfully kill?