Can you learn from video?

[anerlich]

Thats unlikly to happen. No car no money.... And the closest instructor of WC is.... 16 miles away. As for a partner to work with that will only happen after a become some what proficient with siu lim tau....

I think you need to sort out the money thing and a car before worrying about Wing Chun. Videos cost money too. Well, if you obtain them legally.

People with knowledge may choose to help you, but they generally are more receptive to to people who try to meet them at least halfway, and try to help themselves.

I train at three places, and they are all further away than 16 miles. Yes, I have a car. I worked at a job and found I could afford one. Quite a few people do that.

I get to one place by public transport weekly and could get to one of the others that way if I had to. One place I go to would be tough (getting from Pennant Hills to Manly in Sydney) without a car, but if I had no car, I'd just go to the other places more often instead.

Georges St Pierre used to catch public transport from Canada to train Jiu Jitsu in New York with Renzo Gracie and John Danaher on weekends when he was a teenager. His English was crap in the beginning also.

Everyone who has had some success in martial arts has generally faced some significant challenges, financial, physical, or otherwise. I can't think of a single black belt or red/gold sash I train with who hadn't encountered and overcome some significant obstacles.

 

[dudewingchun]

I like using video to supplement learning from my teacher in person. It is quite easy to get an information overload and only remember bits and pieces but going home and watching videos on the same stuff I learnt and being able to replay it multiple times makes it easier for me to remember it permanently, it also develops deeper understanding imo.

 

[anerlich]

My WC instructor has made some vids, but IMO anyone outside the lineage would find them fairly useless as Wing Chun varies so enormously. I use them mainly for reference and occasional inspiration.

Jiu Jitsu, I've got great video guidance from some top instructors I'd be lucky to meet otherwise. John Will, Carlos Machado, Ryan Hall amongst my favourites. Jiu Jitsu varies enormously as well, and there are "styles" and "lineages" but for some reason they still seem to work well if blended together.

I often see higher belts learning stuff from lower belts - the technical range is so vast, no one can become an expert at every aspect. Well, not in the first 31 years at black belt anyway. I do it a lot myself.

Individual expression starts a lot earlier along the path in Jiu Jitsu. For some WC guys, it seems to never happen, often it seems by choice.

Whoa, I just got promoted to yellow. Woo hoo!

 

[Vajramusti]

I think you need to sort out the money thing and a car before worrying about Wing Chun. Videos cost money too. Well, if you obtain them legally.

People with knowledge may choose to help you, but they generally are more receptive to to people who try to meet them at least halfway, and try to help themselves.

I train at three places, and they are all further away than 16 miles. Yes, I have a car. I worked at a job and found I could afford one. Quite a few people do that.

I get to one place by public transport weekly and could get to one of the others that way if I had to. One place I go to would be tough (getting from Pennant Hills to Manly in Sydney) without a car, but if I had no car, I'd just go to the other places more often instead.

Georges St Pierre used to catch public transport from Canada to train Jiu Jitsu in New York with Renzo Gracie and John Danaher on weekends when he was a teenager. His English was crap in the beginning also.

Everyone who has had some success in martial arts has generally faced some significant challenges, financial, physical, or otherwise. I can't think of a single black belt or red/gold sash I train with who hadn't encountered and overcome some significant obstacles.

---------------------------
agree

 

[wckf92]

Video is excellent to draw ones awareness to something (in the absence of a trained/qualified SiFu). For example, most people don't or won't watch their feet during MYJ work. So, set up a camera and record the entire footwork area of the jong, from the knees down...then grab a beer and watch your feet for any mistakes!

 

[Hyoho]

^^^^^ What you need to do is locate a good teacher that is within an acceptable traveling distance. Pay him a visit with a good video camera and record the lesson. Then go home and find a training partner and start working through the material that you have recorded. Or get the teacher to recommend some commercially available instructional DVDs to work from and that the teacher himself follows relatively closely. Return for training as often as you can and in between trips record what you are working on with your video camera and send it to your teacher for feedback. But you have to have a like-minded training partner at home to work with. You cannot learn Wing Chun or any martial art solo.

Lol, I can just see you walking into any serious dojo in Japan and ask to take a video.

 

[Hyoho]

I don't think many do that. They watch video to see their own mistakes and where they can improve.



Your particular fields must have a small number of participants, or you are watching a lot of poor videos.

If you can see how many mistakes have been made best not make video in the first place unless its for your own personal use. Certainly not to post as a teaching tool.

Yes its usually one person performing a particular waza or two people doing free or match practice against each other. Different to actually being there but it shows up distinct problems that can be overcome. After forty years of teaching/training and helping get two teams through to win all Japan Championship I have that ability. Correcting just one mistake sometimes helps with a multitude of other problems.

 

[KPM]

Lol, I can just see you walking into any serious dojo in Japan and ask to take a video.

I walked into a "serious" school in Hong Kong and it was no problem. Sounds like the "serious" Karateka need to take a step into the 21st century.

 

[marques]

No one has argued that video instruction can completely replace personal instruction.

But some people are looking for that, because next school is too far away, incompatible schedules and so on. And if there is demand... there is offer.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have not been able to reply in the detail I would like, because I was posting from the hospital where my wife has been a patient since Friday. She is home now, and I have a few minutes.

No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video (or a book). Nothing but bad form, anyway.

What text and video do is show you gross movements. This is a block. This is a punch. Etc. Even if the person modeling the movements is themselves an expert, a non-expert who is watching or reading is going to miss a great many of the details. Details which are more than just important, they make up the the difference between a good technique and one which frankly does not work. Even in the dojo, an instructor demonstrates a technique and then has to go around to each student, examining their posture, balance, and so on. They will test a block, for example, and make minute adjustments so that it works for that person; and most of us know that each person is different in that respect, so there is no 'one size fits all' block, etc.

I also believe that repetition of bad form results in bad technique locked in more or less permanently, so it's more destructive than learning nothing at all.

Buka mentioned that experts and advanced students can probably learn from video in a way that a novice cannot, and this might be true, especially if it involves one's own style of martial arts, where the 'details' are worked out and well-understood. For example, a minor change in the steps of a bo kata, where the kata itself is already well understood. However, I suspect that if the instruction were to involve a different art completely, where the details of balance, stance, breathing, and God knows what else are different, it would be just as bad as if a beginner was viewing it.

Buka also mentioned the notion of watching a fight video and learning how another person fights, in order to defend against them. I agree completely; but this is not what I was referring to. I was referring to instruction.

For those who disagree with me, I understand, but I'm not going to change my mind.

This is not the first time we've had this particular thread or one just like it. And it's always the same thing.

Beginner whines (yes, whines) and cries about how he or she cannot possibly find time to get actual training. It's too far away, it costs too much, the instructor is mean, it's too hot, it's too cold, blah blah blah blah. Well suck it up, buttercup. Find a way to get proper training, or do not. It's not up to the rest of the world to make things easier on you. You want training, you find a way. That's part of becoming a martial artist; if you haven't got the ability to figure this out, then you are probably money ahead to have not started training anyway, because you'd quit and have a butt-load more excuses why it didn't work out for you.

Another problem with books and videos is that no one actually trains. That's right, I'm saying it. You buy the video, you watch ten minutes of it while sitting on the couch eating cookies. You stand up and imitate a couple moves, you decide you've got it, and you never watch the video again. That's how it works.

Don't tell me you watch the video every day and train for two hours daily by yourself using the video and the books and so on, because you don't. OK, I'm just saying that. You can say you do, fine, whatever, but I don't believe it for one second. It's like all the exercise equipment at the garage sales that has clearly never been used. People buy it with the best of intentions and then hang clothes on it.

Video training is not training. It's wishful thinking.

If you want to train, figure out a way to do it. If you can't, I'm sorry. There isn't any substitute.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some random thoughts...

Video instruction can be quite valuable. I can honestly say that instructional videos played a major part in helping me earn my BJJ black belt.

Just watching videos isn't going to get you anywhere. By the same token, if you just sat and watched live classes at the dojo without ever participating you wouldn't develop any skills either. You have to put in the work either way.

Practicing what you see in the videos is necessary, but some sort of feedback to make corrections is also important. If you don't have an instructor handy, then that feedback will have to come from your training/sparring partners. The better training partners you have, the better feedback you will get.

Some people are visual learners and will be able to get more from video instruction than those who are not.

The more experience you have, the more you will be able to learn from video. The more specific that experience is to the material being covered, the more you will be able to learn. In BJJ I have enough experience that sometimes I can watch a video, then go in to the gym next day and be tapping people out in sparring with what I've learned from that video. In contrast, I'm a beginner in Wing Tsun, so I'm able to absorb a lot less from watching a WT video and need more hands-on guidance to fully understand what I'm seeing. I'm highly skeptical that a novice will have the ability to develop usable martial arts skills primarily through video instruction.

There is a huge range in the quality of video lessons from an instructional standpoint. Many top notch practitioners are terrible at structuring a video lesson so that you can pull anything usable from it. Others are brilliant at organizing the material, making sure you can see everything clearly, explaining the details that make the techniques work, warning of pitfalls, and offering training and troubleshooting tips.

Another problem with books and videos is that no one actually trains. That's right, I'm saying it. You buy the video, you watch ten minutes of it while sitting on the couch eating cookies. You stand up and imitate a couple moves, you decide you've got it, and you never watch the video again. That's how it works.

I guess I'm no one then. I watch videos, drill the moves with a training partner, discover any parts which seem rough, go back to check the video to see if I can spot the problem, drill some more, try the moves in sparring, then go back to the video again to see if I can catch details I've been missing in application. I also use video to discover refinements on techniques I've been practicing for years. I also use videos to gain insights into concepts and principles which inform all aspects of my training.

I generally train about 10-12 hours per week on the mats*. On top of that, I would guess that I average a couple of hours per week studying video. (That's sort of a wild guesstimate. Some weeks I don't look at video at all. Other weeks I might watch 6+ hours worth.)

*(Or on wood floors or in the back yard or wherever.)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I guess I'm no one then. I watch videos, drill the moves with a training partner, discover any parts which seem rough, go back to check the video to see if I can spot the problem, drill some more, try the moves in sparring, then go back to the video again to see if I can catch details I've been missing in application. I also use video to discover refinements on techniques I've been practicing for years. I also use videos to gain insights into concepts and principles which inform all aspects of my training.

I generally train about 10-12 hours per week on the mats*. On top of that, I would guess that I average a couple of hours per week studying video. (That's sort of a wild guesstimate. Some weeks I don't look at video at all. Other weeks I might watch 6+ hours worth.)

*(Or on wood floors or in the back yard or wherever.)

Think about who you are, versus the "it's too far to go to a dojo" person. There are worlds of difference. Worlds.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Think about who you are, versus the "it's too far to go to a dojo" person. There are worlds of difference. Worlds.

I agree. I was just responding to "no one actually trains." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.

*(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree. I was just responding to "no one actually trains." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.

*(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)

Gotcha. Yes, that's who I meant. I should have clarified. I stand corrected.

 

[KPM]

I agree. I was just responding to "no one actually trains." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.

*(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)

Exactly. One has to be careful with "sweeping statements." What Bill said may apply to some people, but definitely not to everyone!

 

[geezer]

Gotcha. Yes, that's who I meant. I should have clarified. I stand corrected.

And, a lot of what you said had the ring of truth about it. Harsh, but true. For example:

You buy the video, you watch ten minutes of it while sitting on the couch eating cookies. You stand up and imitate a couple moves, you decide you've got it, and you never watch the video again. That's how it works.

Been there, done that. Including the part about the cookies.

And I really cringed when you said this:

It's like all the exercise equipment at the garage sales that has clearly never been used. People buy it with the best of intentions and then hang clothes on it.

I'm not sure if I'm bothered more by my guilt for not using that pull-up bar/dip/roman-chair contraption any more, or by wondering how Bill got a look into my garage!!!

BTW, my wife is one hanging clothes on those things. I drew the line when she started hanging things on my wooden dummy.

 

[KPM]

^^^ But here's the rub Steve. I can post and say that it IS possible to learn from video. I'm living proof. But obviously that is NOT to say that ANYONE can learn from video. But someone cannot post and say "No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video" with any kind of validity because several people have posted on this thread pointing out how it is indeed possible to learn from video. This is the problem with sweeping statements.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

^^^ But here's the rub Steve. I can post and say that it IS possible to learn from video. I'm living proof. But obviously that is NOT to say that ANYONE can learn from video. But someone cannot post and say "No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video" with any kind of validity because several people have posted on this thread pointing out how it is indeed possible to learn from video. This is the problem with sweeping statements.

When I assist in our dojo with teaching kids, I spend a lot of time on basics. Even such things as punching a bag correctly can be quite difficult to learn. They watch me demonstrate. They attempt to do what I do. They lean forward, they get off-balance, they don't drop their weight, they don't bend their knees, they chicken-wing their punch, they don't use their hips, their feet are all wrong, etc. But they are certain that they are doing it just like I am.

[NOTE: As an aside, teaching is a great way to catch your own mistakes. Sooner or later, you'll see someone doing something odd and find out after investigation that they did indeed imitate you perfectly after a long while. They imitated your mistake that you didn't know you were making either.]​

And that's with me there to provide instant feedback, and to make adjustments. They eventually get it. Some sooner, some later.

But now do that with a video. No feedback. They see, they do. Incorrectly, that's how they do. And they are certain they are doing it just like the video.

Not their fault. This is human nature.

But it completely blows up the notion that a person can teach themselves martial arts from a video.

As has been pointed out, I am referring to beginners here. But it would be the same for me if I were to start trying to learn a new type of martial art from video. All I can do is imitate what I see and hope I am doing it the way I think I am seeing it. Without proper instruction and feedback, I am probably wrong.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As an aside, teaching is a great way to catch your own mistakes. Sooner or later, you'll see someone doing something odd and find out after investigation that they did indeed imitate you perfectly after a long while. They imitated your mistake that you didn't know you were making either

Yes indeed!

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree. I was just responding to "no one actually trains." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.

*(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)

Yeah, but Tony c'mon man, you are training with real teachers all the time, and putting in the work and the hours needed. Whatever video instruction you have had has really been supplemental, and that is absolutely realistic.