Can you learn from video?

[Flying Crane]

If you have a whole collection of tricks that you can beat someone's *** with, wouldn't that make a martial art or at least a fighting art?

I guess I'm looking for more than that.

 

[Pat M]

.
I use video reinforcement all the time, and we use video referencing quite a bit.

Reinforcement, as I've used it here, is literally picking up my smartphone, flipping on the video mode when Student A is working on something, usually with Student B. It's not working for them, and I can see why, but they can't "feel' the why I'm explaining because they don't even know what it is they are feeling for yet.

So... I play back the video and point it out to them. Then mimic their flaw, show the negative outcome, then show the correction and (hopefully) am then able to demonstrate the preferred outcome of whatever it is. Sometimes to get people to feel what it is you very much have to use what my teacher called "Training Hands" and grasp the person and corral their movement into a certain path or position.

Video works, but it's an aid to teaching in this regard.

Next, working on - insert random kata technique name - we often will, since the instructor who originally taught me/them the kata is in another state, and sometimes memory fails everyone... we'll pull up the video of said kata technique and the discussion surrounding it, watch it together (obviously with different levels of understanding) and then go practice.

Video works, but it's an aid to teaching in this regard.

IMO... trying to learn a technique with which you've had absolutely no physical experience with first... is a very uphill task. If all you have is a book, I wish you luck. If you've video of good quality, at least you get more of the data, though it's not live and interactive. Better, but not great.

Sometimes, I wish we could just download it, matrix-style... Ha!

You really sound to have a fantastic approach to how you run your classes.

 

[Combat999]

I believe it depends on what you are learning. Some arts are so detailed and needing of perfection that there is no way you can learn them through video alone. I tried learning WIng Chun through videos and books. Didn't work. I had to find a Sifu. Combatives on the other hand can be learned quite easily. Like the videos I just got WW3 Combatives. It is so easy and straight forward. I'm sure I could get better if the guy was teaching me but it's not as complicated as Wing Chun, Aikido or other arts.

 

[themodernfighter]

YES! You can absolutely learn stuff from videos and here is WHY!

Say you went to a Muay Thai lesson for the first time and you saw a technique being performed such as a horizontal elbow being thrown with the right hand while the left hand is covering the face. Now would this technique with the proper application come to mind a day prior to that lesson without ever having seen it? The answer is NO.

The same thing goes with videos. When it comes to videos you can see techniques that would never cross your mind, but once you see them for the first time you start learning new things. For example, we filmed a video showcasing various kenji siko applications. Now if you have never seen this technique, then you are definitely going to learn something new. Enjoy and tell me what you think !

 

[Bill Mattocks]

YES! You can absolutely learn stuff from videos and here is WHY!

Say you went to a Muay Thai lesson for the first time and you saw a technique being performed such as a horizontal elbow being thrown with the right hand while the left hand is covering the face. Now would this technique with the proper application come to mind a day prior to that lesson without ever having seen it? The answer is NO.

The same thing goes with videos. When it comes to videos you can see techniques that would never cross your mind, but once you see them for the first time you start learning new things. For example, we filmed a video showcasing various kenji siko applications. Now if you have never seen this technique, then you are definitely going to learn something new. Enjoy and tell me what you think !

First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.

Second, I disagree completely with your thesis. But let me explain.

Can you 'learn' from videos? Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly. You can learn badly. You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.

Seeing something is one thing. Being able to apply it correctly is yet another. One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all. I do not fall into that school of thought. I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply. False confidence gets people hurt.

I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block. I trust myself when I set that block. And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion. Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?

Well, no. First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear). I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again. They do it WRONG. Over and over. Not because they are stupid. Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block. Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear. There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person. No video can teach that.

Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious. When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive. But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.

I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me. If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block. It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks. The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.

Yes you can learn martial arts from video. You can learn bad martial arts. Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.

 

[themodernfighter]

First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.

Second, I disagree completely with your thesis. But let me explain.

Can you 'learn' from videos? Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly. You can learn badly. You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.

Seeing something is one thing. Being able to apply it correctly is yet another. One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all. I do not fall into that school of thought. I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply. False confidence gets people hurt.

I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block. I trust myself when I set that block. And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion. Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?

Well, no. First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear). I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again. They do it WRONG. Over and over. Not because they are stupid. Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block. Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear. There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person. No video can teach that.

Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious. When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive. But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.

I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me. If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block. It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks. The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.

Yes you can learn martial arts from video. You can learn bad martial arts. Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.

First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.

Second, I disagree completely with your thesis. But let me explain.

Can you 'learn' from videos? Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly. You can learn badly. You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.

Seeing something is one thing. Being able to apply it correctly is yet another. One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all. I do not fall into that school of thought. I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply. False confidence gets people hurt.

I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block. I trust myself when I set that block. And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion. Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?

Well, no. First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear). I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again. They do it WRONG. Over and over. Not because they are stupid. Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block. Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear. There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person. No video can teach that.

Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious. When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive. But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.

I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me. If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block. It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks. The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.

Yes you can learn martial arts from video. You can learn bad martial arts. Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.

Hi Bill,

First off thanks for the comment and nice to meet, I really appreciate your input here .
Please note that I am not an instructor and I do not teach anything, I am still learning and I also help other new adult students, what I am stating is simply my opinion .

Now that that is out of the way, I would like to say that I agree with you on a lot of things that you mentioned. Obviously, in order to learn a technique it is best done when an instructor is beside you and correcting you, unfortunately not everyone has that luxury and video is the best that they could hope for.

I understand what you mean when you say, new students get it wrong even if they do it over and over and over again, yet they still keep getting it wrong. But what do you expect? They are new students and their co-ordination is usually terrible. In order to get something right you need repetition.

So, in my opinion, if you see a video with a technique, analyze the movements and film yourself doing it, and do it over and over again, the only thing you can do is improve.

Anyway, I was just stating my opinion, personally, I have learned a lot from videos, I was exposed to new stuff and training methods that I have never seen before and it worked well for me, that is why I have this kind of mindset.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Agree with above. And these things have already been pointed to Bill multiple times in this thread already.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...
I understand what you mean when you say, new students get it wrong even if they do it over and over and over again, yet they still keep getting it wrong. But what do you expect? They are new students and their co-ordination is usually terrible. In order to get something right you need repetition.

To be more precise, you need correct repetition.

I see them apply the block and I say "Not like that, like this!" And they reply "I am doing it like you said!" But they are not. They don't know that, it's not their fault. I need to move their elbow or adjust their stance or whatever. And I have to do it again and again and again. Only when they get it pretty well locked in can they practice over and over and over until they get it 'right'.

So, in my opinion, if you see a video with a technique, analyze the movements and film yourself doing it, and do it over and over again, the only thing you can do is improve.

They can think they are improving. I doubt that they actually are improving.

I have stated this before, but to repeat:

1) They don't do it over and over when they 'home train' anyway. They do it a couple times and call it good.
2) They believe they are doing what they see, but they're not.
3) What they see is maybe 10% of the actual application anyway. So much is tiny little details that only in-person instruction can teach - no camera can catch it.

Anyway, I was just stating my opinion, personally, I have learned a lot from videos, I was exposed to new stuff and training methods that I have never seen before and it worked well for me, that is why I have this kind of mindset.

Some have said that learning from videos is better than nothing. I think it's worse than nothing if one depends on it in a real self-defense application.

Some have said that they can't find a way to get to training or to pay for it. I'm sorry that's the case. Work towards a solution, is my only advice here. This is the whole 'chop wood, carry water' mentality. Part of the learning process is being determined enough to do something about it.

Some have said that videos can be a good learning tool for those who have already reached a certain level of mastery and who can therefore absorb more from the video training...mmmm maybe. In a way. Personally, I have been to seminars where there was a limited amount of hands-on training that I would have thought I could master, given the fact that I have been training for some time now. It hasn't been the case for the most part, and that was in-person. I doubt video is going to be my new sensei anytime soon.

I know people are just looking for options. I don't like being such a downer, but I don't think video is a legitimate option for good training. Bad training, sure, but don't we have enough of that already?

 

[themodernfighter]

You make some very good points, and I agree with you, however I still stand by my opinion because I personally learned from video. At the end of the day I believe it ALL comes down to the practitioner if they can learn from video or not.

 

[Juany118]

I think people miss something. You will do things incorrectly and not even know. Example a "simple" Arm Bar. If you look at 99% of videos you see the person apply a wrist lock and place the forearm on the elbow and lower their body weight.

How many people notice that the practitioner is also rotating the wrist they have locked? That you aren't actually going straight down on the arm but rotating the arm. If you just go straight down it is actually not difficult to resist, however if you use circles, the brain is constantly adjusting and so resistance is compromised because the direction to resist in is constantly changing.

With WC, does a video tell you the importance of the angle at you elbow in a fighting stance or a tan sau? Can you yourself see that you are tense in neck and shoulders when executing techniques?

In general when practicing a technique do you notice your form is compromised leaning forward, bending down at the waist when you should be bending at the knees? Do you notice your stance is over extended or that you did not zone enough so you have now said "yes please, kick me in the Jimmy" to an opponent?

All of these little things, with repetition, create bad muscle memory. Some of these bad habits make certain techniques far less effective (the arm bar and tan sau examples) others make you vulnerable (the ones directly above.)

Now I know a lot of people look at videos because they can be free but here is a question. If you are learning martial arts to defend yourself you clearly want it to be correct, to work, just like any other skill set. Would you want your kid to learn History, Math or Science from YouTube videos or from a certified teacher? Would you want our Soldiers learning from videos of Drill Sgts and professional instructors? I suspect you would say the later both cases. A skill set is a skill set.

I get increasingly in the internet age we increasingly see data is free. Skills are built upon data so we may wish to learn skills for free. However in something like Martial Arts, something that is about learning something until it becomes automatic through muscle memory, without someone to correct mistakes, you get bad memory than can actually get you hurt.

 

[Vajramusti]

First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.

Second, I disagree completely with your thesis. But let me explain.

Can you 'learn' from videos? Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly. You can learn badly. You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.

Seeing something is one thing. Being able to apply it correctly is yet another. One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all. I do not fall into that school of thought. I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply. False confidence gets people hurt.

I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block. I trust myself when I set that block. And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion. Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?

Well, no. First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear). I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again. They do it WRONG. Over and over. Not because they are stupid. Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block. Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear. There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person. No video can teach that.

Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious. When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive. But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.

I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me. If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block. It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks. The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.

Yes you can learn martial arts from video. You can learn bad martial arts. Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.[/Q
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with the thrust of your position.

 

[Vajramusti]

Agree with the thrust of your position.

 

[Flying Crane]

To be more precise, you need correct repetition.

I see them apply the block and I say "Not like that, like this!" And they reply "I am doing it like you said!" But they are not. They don't know that, it's not their fault. I need to move their elbow or adjust their stance or whatever. And I have to do it again and again and again. Only when they get it pretty well locked in can they practice over and over and over until they get it 'right'.



They can think they are improving. I doubt that they actually are improving.

I have stated this before, but to repeat:

1) They don't do it over and over when they 'home train' anyway. They do it a couple times and call it good.
2) They believe they are doing what they see, but they're not.
3) What they see is maybe 10% of the actual application anyway. So much is tiny little details that only in-person instruction can teach - no camera can catch it.



Some have said that learning from videos is better than nothing. I think it's worse than nothing if one depends on it in a real self-defense application.

Some have said that they can't find a way to get to training or to pay for it. I'm sorry that's the case. Work towards a solution, is my only advice here. This is the whole 'chop wood, carry water' mentality. Part of the learning process is being determined enough to do something about it.

Some have said that videos can be a good learning tool for those who have already reached a certain level of mastery and who can therefore absorb more from the video training...mmmm maybe. In a way. Personally, I have been to seminars where there was a limited amount of hands-on training that I would have thought I could master, given the fact that I have been training for some time now. It hasn't been the case for the most part, and that was in-person. I doubt video is going to be my new sensei anytime soon.

I know people are just looking for options. I don't like being such a downer, but I don't think video is a legitimate option for good training. Bad training, sure, but don't we have enough of that already?

Agreed, and these things have been pointed out to kpm many times.

 

[KPM]

^^^^And I have said....may be true from some, but not for everyone. You cannot generalize your opinion and experience to everyone. I have pointed out that I have learned well from video in several different ways. "themodernfighter" has said the same just today. Others have said the same on this thread. So we can say with good confidence that it IS possible. You cannot say that it is impossible. We only have to show that it has worked for some people. You would have to show that it has NEVER worked for anyone. So get off your high horses and use a little common sense here.

 

[Vajramusti]

First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.

Second, I disagree completely with your thesis. But let me explain.

Can you 'learn' from videos? Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly. You can learn badly. You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.

Seeing something is one thing. Being able to apply it correctly is yet another. One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all. I do not fall into that school of thought. I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply. False confidence gets people hurt.

I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block. I trust myself when I set that block. And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion. Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?

Well, no. First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear). I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again. They do it WRONG. Over and over. Not because they are stupid. Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block. Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear. There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person. No video can teach that.

Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious. When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive. But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.

I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me. If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block. It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks. The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.

Yes you can learn martial arts from video. You can learn bad martial arts. Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.

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With sufficient knowledge of good wing chun, videos can give some insights to a kung fu person.
The problem with video based learning is that one becomes one's own teacher and may have a fool for a student.

 

[anerlich]

I think people miss something. You will do things incorrectly and not even know. Example a "simple" Arm Bar. If you look at 99% of videos you see the person apply a wrist lock and place the forearm on the elbow and lower their body weight.

How many people notice that the practitioner is also rotating the wrist they have locked? That you aren't actually going straight down on the arm but rotating the arm. If you just go straight down it is actually not difficult to resist, however if you use circles, the brain is constantly adjusting and so resistance is compromised because the direction to resist in is constantly changing.

Hmmm ... I've straight armbarred a ****load of guys without "rotating" the arm. You need to control the wrist, usually via the thumb, so they cannot spin out, and there are different philosophies about the final position of the wrist, but I've never had major problems just isolating the end of the lever (wrist), pinning it to my chest and extending the arm using my posterior chain. I've yet to meet someone who could come close to resisting this using arm strength once you control both ends of the lever. His bicep vs your posterior chain. No contest.

Armbars do have a fair number of details and a few differences of opinion about how to apply them, like most things.

Rotation can be useful in setting up the armlock, per Rhonda Rousey, but I've never been taught this rotation thing. I've been taught armbars by three of the Machado brothers, John Will, Richard Norton, Anthony Perosh and Gui Mendes.

Perhaps you are talking about a cutting armbar? For those I would agree the position of the elbow per rotation is very important.

It would be difficult to learn either of these via video alone. But once you understand the basic technical idea and principles behind it, I think the tweaks can be communicated on video and fine tuned by feel without difficulty.

 

[Buka]

Some people can learn, others can't. Depends on experience and subject matter. Also depends on how the video is presented.

For instance, if the video is accompanied with charts, like a black board session.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With sufficient knowledge of good wing chun, videos can give some insights to a kung fu person.
The problem with video based learning is that one becomes one's own teacher and may have a fool for a student.

I would go along with 'insights'. I think we are both saying the same thing - an insight is a far cry from learning.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

^^^^And I have said....may be true from some, but not for everyone. You cannot generalize your opinion and experience to everyone. I have pointed out that I have learned well from video in several different ways. "themodernfighter" has said the same just today. Others have said the same on this thread. So we can say with good confidence that it IS possible. You cannot say that it is impossible. We only have to show that it has worked for some people. You would have to show that it has NEVER worked for anyone. So get off your high horses and use a little common sense here.

I do not have to show a thing. I have stated my opinion, I do not attempt to prove anything. However, anyone who has trained themselves via video is more than welcome to visit me for a friendly demonstration. And I do mean friendly, I am not angry or seeking to hurt or embarrass anyone. Bring what you have and we'll give it a try.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hmmm ... I've straight armbarred a ****load of guys without "rotating" the arm. You need to control the wrist, usually via the thumb, so they cannot spin out, and there are different philosophies about the final position of the wrist, but I've never had major problems just isolating the end of the lever (wrist), pinning it to my chest and extending the arm using my posterior chain. I've yet to meet someone who could come close to resisting this using arm strength once you control both ends of the lever. His bicep vs your posterior chain. No contest.

Armbars do have a fair number of details and a few differences of opinion about how to apply them, like most things.

Rotation can be useful in setting up the armlock, per Rhonda Rousey, but I've never been taught this rotation thing. I've been taught armbars by three of the Machado brothers, John Will, Richard Norton, Anthony Perosh and Gui Mendes.

Perhaps you are talking about a cutting armbar? For those I would agree the position of the elbow per rotation is very important.

It would be difficult to learn either of these via video alone. But once you understand the basic technical idea and principles behind it, I think the tweaks can be communicated on video and fine tuned by feel without difficulty.

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The last sentence is appropriate- good tacit knowlege of a subject can help with videos.