Can we call MMA a style?

[Gerry Seymour]

Something I just thought of. When I was a teenager me and my friends would spend hours playing hockey, doing hockey drills, etc. On the street by my house. None of us were part of a team, or had intention to compete/be part of a team. Does this mean hockey was not a sport for us?

Well, if you actually played hockey (like my brother and I played football in the back yard), then it was a sport (assuming we use competition as the dividing line, which is a highly subjective place to divide it, but I have to use something). My comment about boxing was that I could go to a boxing gym and never compete in boxing. I'd spar, but not to track points, etc., just to work on the skills. To me, that's not "a sport", though by some definitions, it is "sport".

The same could be applied to your hockey. If you guys only ever did drills, then a case could be made that you weren't participating in the sport of hockey - just doing drills that were developing hockey skills. It's all pretty subjective, which is part of my objection to some of the blanket, black-and-white statements about what is and is not a "martial art". No matter how carefully the line is drawn, there's always going to be something that clearly falls on the "wrong" side of the line.

 

[Steve]

Well, if you actually played hockey (like my brother and I played football in the back yard), then it was a sport (assuming we use competition as the dividing line, which is a highly subjective place to divide it, but I have to use something). My comment about boxing was that I could go to a boxing gym and never compete in boxing. I'd spar, but not to track points, etc., just to work on the skills. To me, that's not "a sport", though by some definitions, it is "sport".

The same could be applied to your hockey. If you guys only ever did drills, then a case could be made that you weren't participating in the sport of hockey - just doing drills that were developing hockey skills. It's all pretty subjective, which is part of my objection to some of the blanket, black-and-white statements about what is and is not a "martial art". No matter how carefully the line is drawn, there's always going to be something that clearly falls on the "wrong" side of the line.

If you go to a basketball court with your buddy, would you hesitate to call that "playing basketball" whether score was kept or not?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you go to a basketball court with your buddy, would you hesitate to call that "playing basketball" whether score was kept or not?

And there's that problem I spoke of. If he and I are just shooting baskets and messing around, is that "the sport" or not? Dunno. Not really sure it matters.

 

[Steve]

And there's that problem I spoke of. If he and I are just shooting baskets and messing around, is that "the sport" or not? Dunno. Not really sure it matters.

I think it is a martial art... if you play like my buddies.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it is a martial art... if you play like my buddies.

If you play like me, it's more of a tragi-comedy.

 

[DaveB]

Agreed. Ultimately, I think the distinction is interesting, but what's more interesting is that based on one's experience, the conclusion is totally different. In a vacuum where skills are not being applied in life saving situations, competition provides a means to benchmark your progress. I know I sound like a broken record, but anything you train for but never apply is a sham. You are either misunderstanding what the application is, or you're being misled.
So, it's more to do with historical intent. Tai Chi is a martial art because, theoretically, it was once trained for self defense. Ninjutsu is a martial art because, theoretically, at one time, it was trained for self defense. Same for BJJ and Judo, but not for Sambo or Catch Wrestling, even though all four of these arts are extremely similar in technique, training approach and views on competition.

I think, if you're trying to distinguish between sports and arts, I get what you're trying to say. I just don't think it holds up very well because martial arts are too diverse. I also think that, in general, competition results in more reliable skill development and provides a clear path to expertise, which is the primary reason non-competitive arts atrophy when the crime rates are low, and sport arts thrive.

I don't disagree except to say that the sport of boxing is a good training exercise for strikers of any TMA. Training is it's own activity and not limited by style, meaning there's nothing stopping a ninjutsu guy training like a pro Thai fighter in addition to the style specific skills.

My differentiation is much more about what sport is and is not as opposed to what makes an ma.

 

[DaveB]

Wait, so Tai chi isn't a martial art? Your goal posts keep shifting.

Also, you seem to be trying to ascribe a one size fits all motivation for doing things. People do all sorts of martial arts for all sorts of reasons. I know tons of people that do mma for self defense purposes.

My goalposts aren't shifting, I explained myself poorly.

How did you get from my response that Tai chi isn't a martial art?

I'm not basing my answer on why people do things but by the reason for the things existence. It's purpose.

 

[DaveB]

So, bjj is a martial art, but kendo is not?

I would need to know more about them to answer.

I would also argue that the status could change if you could show that the martial elements of the art had become extinct in favour of the sport methods.

 

[DaveB]

Boxing is a sport. Training for boxing is arguably just part of the sport. What if someone trains at a boxing gym, with no intention to compete? What do we make of it then? I don't think the "it's for self-defense" argument is entirely valid, since there are MA which aren't focused on that (Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido would be an example, from what I know of it).

Training is niether sport nor martial art it is training.

I could go boxing because I want to run a marathon, but while in the gym I am not competing in the sport of marathon running nor the sport of boxing, I am training.

As I said before it's the purpose of the activity that informs it's classification.
Winning a competition = sport
Defenestrating Ninja assailants (not the everyday ninja you see at the bus stop) = martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Training is niether sport nor martial art it is training.

I could go boxing because I want to run a marathon, but while in the gym I am not competing in the sport of marathon running nor the sport of boxing, I am training.

As I said before it's the purpose of the activity that informs it's classification.
Winning a competition = sport
Defenestrating Ninja assailants (not the everyday ninja you see at the bus stop) = martial arts.

So, if someone trains TKD for the purpose of TKD competition, it's no longer a MA in their case? If someone teaches boxing as a fighting style for self-defense, does it become a martial art? Do you see how muddy this gets? There's never going to be a nice, straight line that can be drawn between "martial art" and "not martial art".

 

[Martial D]

My goalposts aren't shifting, I explained myself poorly.

How did you get from my response that Tai chi isn't a martial art?

I'm not basing my answer on why people do things but by the reason for the things existence. It's purpose.

You wrote - "They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems"

This would seem to eliminate Tai Chi from the 'martial arts' category?

As for your new distinction, are you claiming the only purpose for mma is to compete, that the only possible intent behind doing it is competition?

Yet at the same time if someone joins karate only to compete they are doing a martial art?

I'm not seeing any solid distinction here.

 

[Steve]

I would need to know more about them to answer.

I would also argue that the status could change if you could show that the martial elements of the art had become extinct in favour of the sport methods.

Yeah, man. I start to think I'm understanding and then you say Tai Chi is a martial art.

It would help if you could just yay or nay some of the following. Sport or MA?

Tai Chi
Iaido
Kendo
Kyudo
BJJ
Sambo
Catch Wrestling
Ninjutsu
Kyokushin Karate
TKD
Shotokan Karate
Goju Ryu Karate
Fencing
HEMA
Kali/Escrima

 

[Buka]

Training is niether sport nor martial art it is training.

I could go boxing because I want to run a marathon, but while in the gym I am not competing in the sport of marathon running nor the sport of boxing, I am training.

As I said before it's the purpose of the activity that informs it's classification.
Winning a competition = sport
Defenestrating Ninja assailants (not the everyday ninja you see at the bus stop) = martial arts.

Always did love a good defenestration.

 

[Tez3]

Always did love a good defenestration.

It's fallen out of favour in recent years though.

 

[DaveB]

You wrote - "They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems"

This would seem to eliminate Tai Chi from the 'martial arts' category?

As for your new distinction, are you claiming the only purpose for mma is to compete, that the only possible intent behind doing it is competition?

Yet at the same time if someone joins karate only to compete they are doing a martial art?

I'm not seeing any solid distinction here.

Because you are talking about what people do and I am talking about the purpose of the activity.

mixed martial arts is a combat sport. You are not doing mixed martial arts unless you are in a mma competition.

When you go to the mma gym you are training. It is a different activity to playing a sport. Why you train is your business it doesn't change what a sport is.
As for Taichi, it might be helpful if you elaborate on why you think a self defense/combat origin removes Taichi from the rank of martial art?

Are you distinguishing between Taichi and Taichi chuan?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because you are talking about what people do and I am talking about the purpose of the activity.

mixed martial arts is a combat sport. You are not doing mixed martial arts unless you are in a mma competition.

When you go to the mma gym you are training. It is a different activity to playing a sport. Why you train is your business it doesn't change what a sport is.
As for Taichi, it might be helpful if you elaborate on why you think a self defense/combat origin removes Taichi from the rank of martial art?

Are you distinguishing between Taichi and Taichi chuan?

Okay, I think this is part of the communication issue. You're using the original definition of "mixed martial arts". That definition has begun to shift (as definitions do) by usage. The term now often also refers to the training in those gyms. So, yes, someone training in an MMA gym is doing MMA - they are just not competing in it. Decades ago, someone competing in MMA, if asked what they trained in, would answer something like "Kyokushin Karate". Years ago, it might have been "Muay Thai and catch wrestling". Now, many of them might rightly answer "MMA". They don't necessarily train in the separate disciplines. Some still train separate disciplines, and many are still going to classes on specific arts/styles, but some are training "stand-up fighting" and "ground fighting", each being potentially a mixture of techniques from various disciplines. And someone training in the same class/group as those competitors (but not competing) is also training in MMA.

 

[DaveB]

Yeah, man. I start to think I'm understanding and then you say Tai Chi is a martial art.

It would help if you could just yay or nay some of the following. Sport or MA?

Tai Chi
Iaido
Kendo
Kyudo
BJJ
Sambo
Catch Wrestling
Ninjutsu
Kyokushin Karate
TKD
Shotokan Karate
Goju Ryu Karate
Fencing
HEMA
Kali/Escrima

o... k.
Taichi is ma as far as I know, Martial D thinks otherwise.
Then for iado down to catch wrestling I don't know enough about them.
For example I know Kendo was constructed as a sport but having never trained it I don't know if the jitsu elements are taught or not.
Sambo and catch wrestling I know nothing about.

Then from ninjutsu to Kali are martial arts except for fencing which is a sport based on martial art.

Again, no disrespect to sports just different things.

 

[Martial D]

Because you are talking about what people do and I am talking about the purpose of the activity.

mixed martial arts is a combat sport. You are not doing mixed martial arts unless you are in a mma competition.

When you go to the mma gym you are training. It is a different activity to playing a sport. Why you train is your business it doesn't change what a sport is.
As for Taichi, it might be helpful if you elaborate on why you think a self defense/combat origin removes Taichi from the rank of martial art?

Are you distinguishing between Taichi and Taichi chuan?

"You aren't doing mma unless you are in an MMA competition"<-----. Umm what? Good luck finding anyone to agree with that. Have you ever stepped foot inside an MMA gym? I encourage you do so and let them know 90% of them aren't actually doing mma, and report the results here.

Also, what people do and the purpose for doing it(which again, varies from person to person despite your insistence to the contrary) are kinda connected.

But again, if it is the 'purpose for doing it' that distinguishes whether it's a martial art or a sport, and doing it for competition means it's not actually martial art, that would mean people that do say, karate, tkd, jui jitsu, primarily to compete aren't actually doing a martial art either. (Which is of course, silly)

 

[Martial D]

o... k.
Taichi is ma as far as I know, Martial D thinks otherwise.
.

No..no I do not think otherwise. Your definition (that I bolded and quoted, twice) excluded it. Your definition said nothing of origins( which seems to me more than a little arbitrary anyway), but "primary purpose". Would you honestly say the primary purpose of taichi is self defense?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, if you actually played hockey (like my brother and I played football in the back yard), then it was a sport (assuming we use competition as the dividing line, which is a highly subjective place to divide it, but I have to use something). My comment about boxing was that I could go to a boxing gym and never compete in boxing. I'd spar, but not to track points, etc., just to work on the skills. To me, that's not "a sport", though by some definitions, it is "sport".

The same could be applied to your hockey. If you guys only ever did drills, then a case could be made that you weren't participating in the sport of hockey - just doing drills that were developing hockey skills. It's all pretty subjective, which is part of my objection to some of the blanket, black-and-white statements about what is and is not a "martial art". No matter how carefully the line is drawn, there's always going to be something that clearly falls on the "wrong" side of the line.

If you go to a basketball court with your buddy, would you hesitate to call that "playing basketball" whether score was kept or not?

Steve's response is exactly what I'm getting at. If you want to be technical, you could make the argument that we weren't playing hockey. But, for all intents and purposes, we were. We would do what would be considered drilling, as games. We weren't competing, so we weren't 'training' hockey (the argument I see with MA), and we would play hockey, but when you're playing for 4 hours no one is bothering to keep score.

We were not participating in the competitive sport of hockey, but if someone stopped by and saw us, they would know we were playing hockey, if someone asked one of us what we did last night, we would say playing hockey, if someone took a snapshot of us and compared it to a team playing hockey, the only difference would be the environment/jerseys. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I think it's fair to call it a duck.