Styles dying out

[Hanzou]

I'm not saying anything specific to kung fu. With my experience in Olympic fencing, and I think as a safe rule for any athletic sport, the value of a coach is in their coaching ability, not their competitive performance compared to their students.

In Bjj we do both.

 

[Headhunter]

I'm not saying anything specific to kung fu. With my experience in Olympic fencing, and I think as a safe rule for any athletic sport, the value of a coach is in their coaching ability, not their competitive performance compared to their students. There's a reason you don't see Olympic gymnastics coaches competing in the Olympics, or World Cup Soccer coaches playing in the World Cup.

I used Freddie Roach because he's a legendary boxing coach who himself has a physical disability that wouldn't let him personally compete in boxing.

Another example is cus d'amato. Guy was a bit fat guy but a great trainer. Though I disagree with how he handled Tyson he did made make him a great boxer

 

[Buka]

Twenty five year olds are sort of cute.

 

[drop bear]

Another example is cus d'amato. Guy was a bit fat guy but a great trainer. Though I disagree with how he handled Tyson he did made make him a great boxer

Yes. But then you go off the results of the students.

Which the Gracie challenge did.

 

[Mark Lynn]

with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.

maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.

Also we have the addition of RBSD style systems which give much more to the person seeking self defence than maybe many of the traditional styles can.

so are styles continuing to die out? if so what styles are dying?

I believe that styles die out over the years, generally because the head instructor/founder/ or whatever has passed on and there was.....
1) No one good enough or serious enough to take up the torch (so to speak) and carry the art forward.

2) The art or system was no longer needed and it died out due to lack of use.

3) The art or system didn't have a large enough following that gave it the momentum to survive long term after the founder's passing.

4) No clear line of succession so the art split apart and was renamed by all of the top students and over time it morphed into new arts.

5) Competition brought about by other arts coming in that were more popular.

Totally agree with most of what everyone said.
In the spirit of the thread, can you think of any specific MA styles/stems that are no longer around?

Specific arts nowadays, names? Nope sorry. I can give examples of arts that died that I've read about.

In the book "Cebuano Eskrima Beyond the myth" in the 2nd half of the book the authors were doing just that, researching and documenting different styles or methods of the FMAs that were dying out due to the styles not be needed or no one to pass the teachings on to. These were mostly village arts or systems that were used to fight off Muslim raiders in days gone by.

https://www.amazon.com/Cebuano-Eskrima-Celestino-C-Macachor/dp/1425746217

In the book American Shaolin: Flying Kicks, Buddhist Monks, and the Ledgend of the Iron Crotch; the author describes meeting old masters in China who didn't have someone to train and pass the art on to.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Shaolin-Flying-Buddhist-Odyssey-ebook/dp/B000PDYVR0

In WWII many karate masters died in the war, along with their students and such and from that several styles and a lot of written texts on karate and Okinawan martial arts were lost.

I believe it is safe to assume that many combat systems have disappeared over generations. Perhaps not all had names or were systammatically organized, but people all over the world and throughout history have been fighting each other and developing their methods for doing so.

For example, I would suggest that the combat methods of the Comanches and Apaches and Aztecs and Toltecs are no longer practiced and have been forgotten. Likewise I suggest that many systems from Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas have disappeared.

Agreed. What we have nowadays is back door engineered some training methods from Europe's sword systems, American Bowie knife, European/American staff, tomahawk, American Indian systems etc. etc. but the transmission of the actual system wasn't really handed down unbroken. Passed down in tact from family to family or tribe to tribe.

A lot of research has gone on to try and replicate these systems but they weren't handed down like the Japanese/Chinese systems were.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I agree. Just wondered if anyone knew specific names so they could be researched.

If I'm not mistaken the Cebuano Myth book talks about this in that they did the research by going out to the remote coastal villages to find these masters who many were very advanced in years. Often to find out they couldn't really show anything (not that they weren't real) due to age. These were people that fought in battle against others who were trying to kill, raid, or enslave them and had passed their skills in some way to their family friends in the village, but those raids had died out and the skills systems lost over time.

One problem with researching this subject is that not everyone had a "style" or system like we are use to seeing from Japan and China. I had heard that unlike Japanese, Okinawan, and Chinese arts that systems from Indonesia, the Philippines didn't stress lineage they stressed the fight. So there was a lot of mixing of styles and systems and no clear record of transmission. This is probably true with the American arts/styles or whatever as well.

 

[Mitlov]

Are there dojos that teach shuri-te, naha-te, or tomari-te anymore? I mean, there are dojos of karate styles that evolved out of those three, but what about those styles themselves?

 

[Mark Lynn]

So no evidence at all for that claim?, You just thought it sounded better,

Lets try another one, in what othe Sporting endeavour/ arena, would yOu normally exspect a 50 year old to beat a 25yo, ? Golf maybe, ! even snooker / darts player have lost it by 50

Kendo maybe. I have no proof for this because I have no experience with Kendo. However I heard some seasoned martial artists tell me that Kendo ka get to their prime in their 40's-50's. In early 1990 (?) I attended a workout (video'd and took photos) with the Dallas Kendo club where I had a friend who was practicing kendo. At that workout was the oldest living kendo ka, and at the time he was considered to be a national treasure of Japan. I saw him spar with these 4th and 5th dans from Japan as well as the locals and he wiped the floor with them I think he was in his 70's/80's at that time.

 

[dvcochran]

I believe that styles die out over the years, generally because the head instructor/founder/ or whatever has passed on and there was.....
1) No one good enough or serious enough to take up the torch (so to speak) and carry the art forward.

2) The art or system was no longer needed and it died out due to lack of use.

3) The art or system didn't have a large enough following that gave it the momentum to survive long term after the founder's passing.

4) No clear line of succession so the art split apart and was renamed by all of the top students and over time it morphed into new arts.

5) Competition brought about by other arts coming in that were more popular.



Specific arts nowadays, names? Nope sorry. I can give examples of arts that died that I've read about.

In the book "Cebuano Eskrima Beyond the myth" in the 2nd half of the book the authors were doing just that, researching and documenting different styles or methods of the FMAs that were dying out due to the styles not be needed or no one to pass the teachings on to. These were mostly village arts or systems that were used to fight off Muslim raiders in days gone by.

https://www.amazon.com/Cebuano-Eskrima-Celestino-C-Macachor/dp/1425746217

In the book American Shaolin: Flying Kicks, Buddhist Monks, and the Ledgend of the Iron Crotch; the author describes meeting old masters in China who didn't have someone to train and pass the art on to.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Shaolin-Flying-Buddhist-Odyssey-ebook/dp/B000PDYVR0

In WWII many karate masters died in the war, along with their students and such and from that several styles and a lot of written texts on karate and Okinawan martial arts were lost.



Agreed. What we have nowadays is back door engineered some training methods from Europe's sword systems, American Bowie knife, European/American staff, tomahawk, American Indian systems etc. etc. but the transmission of the actual system wasn't really handed down unbroken. Passed down in tact from family to family or tribe to tribe.

A lot of research has gone on to try and replicate these systems but they weren't handed down like the Japanese/Chinese systems were.

I like your back door comment. I think it is an accurate description of many of todays arts and how they have or are becoming an amalgamation. I can certainly see how the training required to fight an enemy has changed over the years. Especially on a large scale such as training an army. I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground. I would say no because a moving body on the ground was fair game to someone else's knife of gunshot. In other words there wasn't time for a long drawn out encounter because there would be many other people to deal with at the same time. I think this is also where a lot of the MMA argument about TMA not working gets skewed. In the era when a style/system was created, the need to teach large groups to work together may have been much more important over one person taking significant time to deal with one enemy. The battle strategy is so different today from every facet. I hear of solders regularly carrying 90lbs of gear. That makes me wonder how in the world they can do any kind of hand to hand combat. I also think the last two generations are so generated from the U.S. being in a major conflict that this has also skewed the perception of conflict. Sorry, I got way off topic.

 

[jobo]

I like your back door comment. I think it is an accurate description of many of todays arts and how they have or are becoming an amalgamation. I can certainly see how the training required to fight an enemy has changed over the years. Especially on a large scale such as training an army. I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground. I would say no because a moving body on the ground was fair game to someone else's knife of gunshot. In other words there wasn't time for a long drawn out encounter because there would be many other people to deal with at the same time. I think this is also where a lot of the MMA argument about TMA not working gets skewed. In the era when a style/system was created, the need to teach large groups to work together may have been much more important over one person taking significant time to deal with one enemy. The battle strategy is so different today from every facet. I hear of solders regularly carrying 90lbs of gear. That makes me wonder how in the world they can do any kind of hand to hand combat. I also think the last two generations are so generated from the U.S. being in a major conflict that this has also skewed the perception of conflict. Sorry, I got way off topic.

Yes in ww2 soldiers at least british soldier's were taught hand to hand fighting to a very basic standard, but then they were only taught anything to a basic standard, you could go from new recriut to flying a Combat spitfire in abiyt a month.

Im not convinced that any of the empty hand sytles were ever ibtended as battle field styLes, though the japanese arts are very similar to millitary drilling, so there is clearly military influence,

 

[Mark Lynn]

I like your back door comment. I think it is an accurate description of many of todays arts and how they have or are becoming an amalgamation.

Back door comment? I'm sorry I don't understand. Back door?

I can certainly see how the training required to fight an enemy has changed over the years. Especially on a large scale such as training an army. I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground. I would say no because a moving body on the ground was fair game to someone else's knife of gunshot. In other words there wasn't time for a long drawn out encounter because there would be many other people to deal with at the same time. I think this is also where a lot of the MMA argument about TMA not working gets skewed. In the era when a style/system was created, the need to teach large groups to work together may have been much more important over one person taking significant time to deal with one enemy.

There was hand to hand combat training but it was very basic, and used only as a last resort, when your weapons were lost or unavailable. After WWII the US military started training their people; SAC, and others, by bringing over top Judo and karate instructors from Japan to train our soldiers in hand to hand combat.

This actually helped revitalize the martial arts and I think it also helped lift the ban of not practicing the martial arts in Japan. In Japan martial arts such karate and Kendo, were used to help build spirit within the Japanese military and LEOs leading up to WWII so after their defeat I believe the leaders wanted to ban their practice.

I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground.

I'd say yes but not like everyone thinks. I don't think it was jujitsu based; but more basic wrestling and beating the guy to a pulp. I have an old copy of one of the basic like civilian coast guard books that was for self defense during war time (WWII era ) (in case an armed force landed on the US shore). If I remember right one of the photos showed one guy smashing his helmet into the face of a solider and I think he was on the ground.

The rest of your quote there was spot on I think.

The battle strategy is so different today from every facet. I hear of solders regularly carrying 90lbs of gear. That makes me wonder how in the world they can do any kind of hand to hand combat. I also think the last two generations are so generated from the U.S. being in a major conflict that this has also skewed the perception of conflict. Sorry, I got way off topic.

But they are not carry 90 pounds of gear every time they go out I don't think. Hand to hand combat could be them getting into a struggle over a gun, or another weapon. While the bad guy might be trying to kill the solider, the solider might be trying to subdue them for Intel purposes.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Im not convinced that any of the empty hand sytles were ever ibtended as battle field styLes, though the japanese arts are very similar to millitary drilling, so there is clearly military influence,

I don't think the battlefield arts like jujitsu were intended to be used instead of carrying a weapon. Rather they were a last resort in case you didn't have any weapons available (for whatever reason) in the heat of a battle.

Karate changed when it came to Japan and the Japanese I think took it to the mass line drilling stage in order to teach their troops. It could have been used for formation training, team building, spirit building etc. etc.

 

[dvcochran]

Back door comment? I'm sorry I don't understand. Back door?



There was hand to hand combat training but it was very basic, and used only as a last resort, when your weapons were lost or unavailable. After WWII the US military started training their people; SAC, and others, by bringing over top Judo and karate instructors from Japan to train our soldiers in hand to hand combat.

This actually helped revitalize the martial arts and I think it also helped lift the ban of not practicing the martial arts in Japan. In Japan martial arts such karate and Kendo, were used to help build spirit within the Japanese military and LEOs leading up to WWII so after their defeat I believe the leaders wanted to ban their practice.



I'd say yes but not like everyone thinks. I don't think it was jujitsu based; but more basic wrestling and beating the guy to a pulp. I have an old copy of one of the basic like civilian coast guard books that was for self defense during war time (WWII era ) (in case an armed force landed on the US shore). If I remember right one of the photos showed one guy smashing his helmet into the face of a solider and I think he was on the ground.

The rest of your quote there was spot on I think.



But they are not carry 90 pounds of gear every time they go out I don't think. Hand to hand combat could be them getting into a struggle over a gun, or another weapon. While the bad guy might be trying to kill the solider, the solider might be trying to subdue them for Intel purposes.

I was referring to @Flying Crane "s reference to back door engineering styles/systems.

 

[wanderingstudent]

I was referring to @Flying Crane "s reference to back door engineering styles/systems.

I think folks mean "reverse engineer".

 

[wanderingstudent]

The comment about styles be comprised of "deadly techniques", which once removed leaves nothing to use; is BS.

Regarding the videos of Sheriff, it is an example of what could happen; when you put yourself out there. Props to Sheriff, for doing that. When I would meet up with people, I didn't always win.

 

[Hanzou]

The comment about styles be comprised of "deadly techniques", which once removed leaves nothing to use; is BS.

Regarding the videos of Sheriff, it is an example of what could happen; when you put yourself out there. Props to Sheriff, for doing that. When I would meet up with people, I didn't always win.

It is also an example of what happens when you focus too much on forms instead of practical fighting technique.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I was referring to @Flying Crane "s reference to back door engineering styles/systems.

Thanks

 

[dvcochran]

I think folks mean "reverse engineer".

Yes, it is the same thing.

 

[Douwe Geluk]

My traditional Tai Chi school (maybe not considdered a martial art) grows and grows.

So i think it is not the same for all styles. Maybe it also depends on the location and what is the trend in that area

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My traditional Tai Chi school (maybe not considdered a martial art) grows and grows.

So i think it is not the same for all styles. Maybe it also depends on the location and what is the trend in that area

Why would it not be considered a martial art?