Can we call MMA a style?

[Danny T]

'USA Boxing' is an amateur boxing association is is not a style of boxing though it is only for amateurs.
'Sugar Bert is another amateur boxing production.
Then there are numerous Boxing Associations that rank boxers within their perspective divisions and again they are not a style of boxing
Also there are numerous Production companies;
Golden Boy Productions is a Professional boxing promotion company.
Don King Productions is a Professional boxing promotion company.
Main Events is a Boxing promotion company.
There are many other boxing promotion companies and associations.
They are not a Style of boxing.

 

[FighterTwister]

Aggh forget this conversation why bother?

 

[DaveB]

Musings while bored at work



I picked up from another discussion where someone said MMA wasn't a style. on the surface i agree with them and the name 'Mixed Martial Arts' also goes some way to confirm this position.

However,

if we compare it to other 'traditional' styles could it be seen as being a style on its own?

in MMA people train to compete under a set of rules, there are some variations but for the main part the rules are fairly similar. The rules of a competition can dictate/define a style, for example judo, Maui Thai, Taekwondo all (or mostly) train to adhere to the rules of a competition. As the rules change so does the art. I believe this is most obvious in Judo where some rule changes have altered the art. Maybe/hopefully someone will be able to confirm this

If MMA is not being counted as a style because it is just a mix of other styles, then i would ask what traditional art is not a mix of other styles? and even how isolated is the mix? Are there still fighters that do pure BBJ with pure Maui Thai? or have they also added in a couple of wrestling moves that they saw and/or were introduced to by a high level practitioner.

Again this is largely the way that traditional styles came about with the founders combining styles or adding techniques to a base style that they were well versed in.

Maybe the strongest argument (in my opinion) for MMA not being classed as a style is that there is no standard across schools.

I am not sure that this is still true, over the years the skills and techniques that are required to be successful in the MMA ring has been boiled done and refined to a specific group which a fighter needs to focus on. Of course we get the occasional exceptions. but in general fighters work to very similar principles. Again this is because of the rules set they all have to fight to.

Also, to this point, how much standard is there in the traditional arts beyond kata/forms. Every teacher has their own take on what the art should be and should look like, this is very true in CMA where you can be hard pressed to find two teachers with the same ideas even within the same style.

so, can we call MMA a style? if not what can we call it?

No.

It's not a martial art, it's a sport. Nothing wrong with that, sports are probably the single best way to train martial arts, but one is not the other.

And yes that does mean Tkd judo muay thai etc are all sports too. The difference is that there are arts that inform the sport format. They are what you employ if you need to fight to defend your life, e.g. Tkd has knees elbows and joint locks not seen in the sport.

 

[Steve]

Is MMA a style? I think so. 10 years ago, maybe not, but I think that while there are different flavors of MMA, because it is a sport for which people train specifically, it's as much a style as any other similar activity. Western Boxing, San Shou, Judo, Muay Thai.

 

[Steve]

No.

It's not a martial art, it's a sport. Nothing wrong with that, sports are probably the single best way to train martial arts, but one is not the other.

And yes that does mean Tkd judo muay thai etc are all sports too. The difference is that there are arts that inform the sport format. They are what you employ if you need to fight to defend your life, e.g. Tkd has knees elbows and joint locks not seen in the sport.

Does this mean that Kyokushin Karate is a sport and not a martial art? What about Kyudo? Iaido? Fencing?

Is this true for any martial art that embraces competition, or is there some kind of test you apply to distinguish between a martial art with competition or a sport with a martial art base? I mean, there are aikido competitions, and tai chi competitions, as well.

Is a style that has forms competitions, but no fighting competitions still a sport?

I think this is a little more confusing that you let on.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is MMA a style? I think so. 10 years ago, maybe not, but I think that while there are different flavors of MMA, because it is a sport for which people train specifically, it's as much a style as any other similar activity. Western Boxing, San Shou, Judo, Muay Thai.

And if not yet, it's certainly on its way there.

 

[Martial D]

No.

It's not a martial art, it's a sport. Nothing wrong with that, sports are probably the single best way to train martial arts, but one is not the other.

And yes that does mean Tkd judo muay thai etc are all sports too. The difference is that there are arts that inform the sport format. They are what you employ if you need to fight to defend your life, e.g. Tkd has knees elbows and joint locks not seen in the sport.

I guess this would be true if everyone that trained in mma competed. Yet, that is not the case. Just like any other martial art, you will find children's classes, seniors classes, and plenty of people in between that do it for health, fitness, fun, discipline, and every other reason behind doing a martial art.

 

[punisher73]

Is "mma" a sport or a style? Yes.

In the earlier days of the UFC, Marco Ruas taught his blend of "mma" called, "Ruas Vale Tudo", one of the first to combine Muay Thai and BJJ and showcase it in the sports world. The only difference in if MMA is a style or a sport is what one wishes to call it. Once you "formalize" your approach and give it your own name it is a "style".

Always has been the history of styles. As soon as you add, subtract it was given a new name. In some cases the additions to the base style ended up in a new name of the approach. In other cases, the modifications were minor and the suffix "-ha" was added with the person's name/style to show that it was the Style X of Joe Schmo. In the history of many okinawan systems they were named after the person who founded them. Uechi-ryu or Motobu-ryu for example.

 

[drop bear]

No.

It's not a martial art, it's a sport. Nothing wrong with that, sports are probably the single best way to train martial arts, but one is not the other.

And yes that does mean Tkd judo muay thai etc are all sports too. The difference is that there are arts that inform the sport format. They are what you employ if you need to fight to defend your life, e.g. Tkd has knees elbows and joint locks not seen in the sport.

What if I do MMA but don't compete?

I mean people use MMA to fight to defend their lives as much as any other martial artist.

More if you believe YouTube.

 

[drop bear]

I guess this would be true if everyone that trained in mma competed. Yet, that is not the case. Just like any other martial art, you will find children's classes, seniors classes, and plenty of people in between that do it for health, fitness, fun, discipline, and every other reason behind doing a martial art.

Do you stop being a martial artist if you compete?

I feel this is going straight in to crazy town.

 

[Tez3]

Do you stop being a martial artist if you compete?

I feel this is going straight in to crazy town.

I suppose it makes a change from the 'you are a bad instructor if you charge students' line.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay, I'll weigh in on the "sport" vs. "art" issue.

I'll use Judo, because I think I know enough of the history (others here will surely correct any mistakes I make) to use it as an example. Kano formed his new system not to be a competition sport, but for the competition to support the learning. So, Judo is an art. AND Judo is a sport. Someone may participate in the sport, but the training can be the art.

Now, it's possible to train only for the sport, and we could argue those people aren't participating in the art. I won't bother to make that argument, because I think it's a meaningless distinction that requires an elitist view of martial arts - that there must be "higher purpose", or it's not an art. (N.B. - I teach with a "higher purpose", so I'm not taking a shot at those who believe that's a good thing.)

I hear people arguing linguistically about the proper use of the term "art" to separate it from "sport". I consider that argument specious, at best. And the same for those who say it's not "martial" unless it was derived from the battlefield, meant to kill, etc. Both of those are literalist arguments, and ignore the fact that words change meanings in context, especially when used in consistent phrases (like "martial art").

 

[Martial D]

Do you stop being a martial artist if you compete?

I feel this is going straight in to crazy town.

That's a good point.

 

[DaveB]

Does this mean that Kyokushin Karate is a sport and not a martial art? What about Kyudo? Iaido? Fencing?

Is this true for any martial art that embraces competition, or is there some kind of test you apply to distinguish between a martial art with competition or a sport with a martial art base? I mean, there are aikido competitions, and tai chi competitions, as well.

Is a style that has forms competitions, but no fighting competitions still a sport?

I think this is a little more confusing that you let on.

I was unclear.

TKD, Judo, Kyokushin, Kyudo etc are martial arts.

They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems. The sport aspects of these arts are bolted on and informed by the proclivities of the parent art.

A sport is a game whose existence and limits are a set of rules governing winning and the conduct to achieve victory.

Boxing, wrestling and MMA are all sports.

 

[Danny T]

Boxing, wrestling, and MMA (the term) have all grown into a sport over many years of families, tribes, clans, armies, etc. have taught their groups how to fight in numerous ways. Many have evolved into sport as friendly ways to compete or even to prevent wars.
Non the less they are arts of fighting can be utilized as a sport.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was unclear.

TKD, Judo, Kyokushin, Kyudo etc are martial arts.

They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems. The sport aspects of these arts are bolted on and informed by the proclivities of the parent art.

A sport is a game whose existence and limits are a set of rules governing winning and the conduct to achieve victory.

Boxing, wrestling and MMA are all sports.

Boxing is a sport. Training for boxing is arguably just part of the sport. What if someone trains at a boxing gym, with no intention to compete? What do we make of it then? I don't think the "it's for self-defense" argument is entirely valid, since there are MA which aren't focused on that (Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido would be an example, from what I know of it).

 

[Steve]

I was unclear.

TKD, Judo, Kyokushin, Kyudo etc are martial arts.

They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems. The sport aspects of these arts are bolted on and informed by the proclivities of the parent art.

A sport is a game whose existence and limits are a set of rules governing winning and the conduct to achieve victory.

Boxing, wrestling and MMA are all sports.

So, bjj is a martial art, but kendo is not?

 

[Martial D]

I was unclear.

TKD, Judo, Kyokushin, Kyudo etc are martial arts.

They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems. The sport aspects of these arts are bolted on and informed by the proclivities of the parent art.

A sport is a game whose existence and limits are a set of rules governing winning and the conduct to achieve victory.

Boxing, wrestling and MMA are all sports.

Wait, so Tai chi isn't a martial art? Your goal posts keep shifting.

Also, you seem to be trying to ascribe a one size fits all motivation for doing things. People do all sorts of martial arts for all sorts of reasons. I know tons of people that do mma for self defense purposes.

 

[Steve]

Boxing is a sport. Training for boxing is arguably just part of the sport. What if someone trains at a boxing gym, with no intention to compete? What do we make of it then? I don't think the "it's for self-defense" argument is entirely valid, since there are MA which aren't focused on that (Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido would be an example, from what I know of it).

Agreed. Ultimately, I think the distinction is interesting, but what's more interesting is that based on one's experience, the conclusion is totally different. In a vacuum where skills are not being applied in life saving situations, competition provides a means to benchmark your progress. I know I sound like a broken record, but anything you train for but never apply is a sham. You are either misunderstanding what the application is, or you're being misled.

I was unclear.

TKD, Judo, Kyokushin, Kyudo etc are martial arts.

They are ma because they are primarily (arguably in judo's case) self defence systems. The sport aspects of these arts are bolted on and informed by the proclivities of the parent art.

A sport is a game whose existence and limits are a set of rules governing winning and the conduct to achieve victory.

Boxing, wrestling and MMA are all sports.

So, it's more to do with historical intent. Tai Chi is a martial art because, theoretically, it was once trained for self defense. Ninjutsu is a martial art because, theoretically, at one time, it was trained for self defense. Same for BJJ and Judo, but not for Sambo or Catch Wrestling, even though all four of these arts are extremely similar in technique, training approach and views on competition.

I think, if you're trying to distinguish between sports and arts, I get what you're trying to say. I just don't think it holds up very well because martial arts are too diverse. I also think that, in general, competition results in more reliable skill development and provides a clear path to expertise, which is the primary reason non-competitive arts atrophy when the crime rates are low, and sport arts thrive.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Boxing is a sport. Training for boxing is arguably just part of the sport. What if someone trains at a boxing gym, with no intention to compete? What do we make of it then? I don't think the "it's for self-defense" argument is entirely valid, since there are MA which aren't focused on that (Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido would be an example, from what I know of it).

Something I just thought of. When I was a teenager me and my friends would spend hours playing hockey, doing hockey drills, etc. On the street by my house. None of us were part of a team, or had intention to compete/be part of a team. Does this mean hockey was not a sport for us?