Can Anyone Identify This Technique For Me?

[punisher73]

I have taught a palm heel strike to the chest, near the throat and then extending it into a spearhand. I have seen people practice "collapsing" the spear into a fist as it makes contact, but I've never been a fan of that.

There are also some methods in okinawan karate (Isshin-Ryu's Wansu first comes to mind) in which you lift the leg in the chamber position and then it dips slightly and then you throw the kick (some lineages emphasize that more than others or add a slight pause with no dip, and some that just throw the kick but the application is the same). The move is designed to be a block with the leg and then immediately throw the kick.

Around the 35 second mark.

 

[GaryR]

Please tell me you didn't just talk to me like you were the only person who knew anything about kinetic linking and generating explosive power? Our white belts are taught kinetic linking as part of the absolute basics and it's a topic we constantly revisit and refine.

Yup, I did. If you think you already know how to apply such principles/mechanics--fine, let the newbs benefit from the posts.

If you can't fathom how the punching technique I described could be anything but a "tap" your idea of linking, explosive power ect. is likely very lacking comparatively. White belts in every style should be taught kinetic linking / mechanics in the begging (they often are in their styles "version of it", but as one gets more advanced the circles can become tighter, more explosive, and more fluid. If I'm preaching to the choir--cool, but nothing indicates you have any idea how to comparatively efficiently and powerfully perform the principles/methods I am describing, its just not likely you can (of course with training you probably could) sorry if that comes across as rude, but I think you are likely way out of your depth here. (I'll reserve a more definite opinion until/if I see video of you or meet you in person. I was in Oz two summers ago-but was on the other coast. I love Aussies - met the Governor of NSW, and was her guest for a parliament hearing-great folks from the top down. )

Again, that's a big claim. The first thread we interacted on it seemed briefly like we had a similar point of view about certain things but honestly, almost every reply you've posted since has been in some way detrimental to another art whilst pushing the idea that you are the Supreme Master and can teach or improve any one else you come across regardless of their background, experience or chosen art. How are you meant to teach and truly recognize the flaws of others when you seem unable/unwilling to learn and recognize your own shortcomings? Just for the record, issuing a challenge or saying "let's train together so I can correct you" just illustrates what I'm talking about.

I am aware that it is a big claim. The "supreme master"?? Lol, do you see any titles in my signature or in my posts?? I am quite against titles of such. I would however put my material against anyone's in the world-->with the exception of ground fighting, and weapons work--there are countless people better than I in those areas. Like I said, I am willing to demonstrate and illustrate my points in person in a friendly manner and even video when able.

I could care less about discussing things that are detrimental to other arts, I call it like I see it. I don't mean to offend anyone-just having objective discussion - style distinctions to me are arbitrary to a point.

I know many of my shortcomings, and am working them-- and I am not so arrogant as to believe that nobody can help me improve-or even kick my a@@-I can name a handful. Text only refutes from the "peanut gallery" who has no experience with my material-or material of the like- is taken as seriously as it needs to be on a case-by-case basis. I'm more of a "show me" kind of person - much of this stuff has to be felt, many subtle mechanics can't be seen well at a more advanced level - purely academic discussion is good -but it only goes so far--hence my offer to train with folks in person. Plus, my offer to critique, teach, and discuss via video is quite generous. I simply want to share info/discuss- and let it benefit the MA community at large. We are all brothers and sisters in the arts, and should help one another, and treat each other accordingly.

Yes, a great majority of people/instructors regardless of background can benefit from the improvements I could provide. This has already been my experience at large. Offering to train together to help someone is not a challenge - there is no need for bravado or fighting - friendly demonstration is most normally more than sufficient.

Best,

Gary

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree that closing the hand before impact is a great way to punch. Keep the fingers loose, don't lock them; you can strike with them - and tensed/locked they can be damaged easily. Closing the fist throughout the whole of your movement is actually quite beginner / less effective. With an open hand your options for intercept, blending, redirecting, & striking instruments are available on the fly--(palm, fingers, pisform bone (on palm heel etc.) Closing you fist from the get-go forecloses on many better/alternative combative options.

Its harder to train in than a regular punch, but better in the long run. Also if you punch in a tight ellipse/circle - the movement can be continuous - no stop start - one-step, two-step.

Best,

Gary

And hence comes the factor many forget.

Not all Systems will work that way. I find that systems that use shorter movements tend to also be into things like keeping the hands relaxed. Then You can find plenty of Boxers whos hands physically vibrate with tension. Or Professional Fighters who only hold open hands before attacking, then keep them shut throughout attacks.
If the hands are closed, the forearms are still available to you.
Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something, your block will barely be a slap.

I dunno where youre getting your ideas from, but your way aint the only way. And if its a scientifical thing, the many times ive been hit in the ribs should have broken at least one, given the force behind them. It hasnt happened yet. And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.

You also seem to be overlooking things like the fact that Wing Chun Chain Punching is a method of applying a particular economical punch, and push. It isnt their entire punching system. The Reverse Punch is no different with exception to how its executed than a rear hand Straight. Complication doesnt automatically make something more effective. Technically, a knee strike will feel stronger if you swing a straight leg up, the bend it. But if you take the time to strengthen your muscles, youll wonder how you were ever so silly.

Yup, I did. If you think you already know how to apply such principles/mechanics--fine, let the newbs benefit from the posts.

Yeah. Those silly unenlightened noobs.

If you can't fathom how the punching technique I described could be anything but a "tap" your idea of linking, explosive power ect. is likely very lacking comparatively. White belts in every style should be taught kinetic linking / mechanics in the begging (they often are in their styles "version of it", but as one gets more advanced the circles can become tighter, more explosive, and more fluid. If I'm preaching to the choir--cool, but nothing indicates you have any idea how to comparatively efficiently and powerfully perform the principles/methods I am describing, its just not likely you can (of course with training you probably could) sorry if that comes across as rude, but I think you are likely way out of your depth here. (I'll reserve a more definite opinion until/if I see video of you or meet you in person. I was in Oz two summers ago-but was on the other coast. I love Aussies - met the Governor of NSW, and was her guest for a parliament hearing-great folks from the top down. )

Again: Im sure what youve been taught is fine. But if you were preaching the one true martial way to get things as good as possible, it would be very commonly known of by now. And i fail to see how meeting the governer of NSW and attending a parliament hearing helps, when most Australians couldnt be bothered doing that.

I am aware that it is a big claim. The "supreme master"?? Lol, do you see any titles in my signature or in my posts?? I am quite against titles of such. I would however put my material against anyone's in the world-->with the exception of ground fighting, and weapons work--there are countless people better than I in those areas. Like I said, I am willing to demonstrate and illustrate my points in person in a friendly manner and even video when able.

You really do come across as thinking you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far, ive been putting that down to some poor wording. Im starting to reconsider this.

I could care less about discussing things that are detrimental to other arts, I call it like I see it. I don't mean to offend anyone-just having objective discussion - style distinctions to me are arbitrary to a point.

Thats part of your problem, likely. Youre making it sound like Martial Arts is one big round egg. But the methods and approaches of one system, are not those of another. What you have learnt is one system. Not the figure of the apparently singular global Martial Art that all these noobs call by different names for some reason.

I know many of my shortcomings, and am working them-- and I am not so arrogant as to believe that nobody can help me improve-or even kick my a@@-I can name a handful. Text only refutes from the "peanut gallery" who has no experience with my material-or material of the like- is taken as seriously as it needs to be on a case-by-case basis. I'm more of a "show me" kind of person - much of this stuff has to be felt, many subtle mechanics can't be seen well at a more advanced level - purely academic discussion is good -but it only goes so far--hence my offer to train with folks in person. Plus, my offer to critique, teach, and discuss via video is quite generous. I simply want to share info/discuss- and let it benefit the MA community at large. We are all brothers and sisters in the arts, and should help one another, and treat each other accordingly.

I mostly just keep thinking about boxing this kid who claimed that he could 'take anyone' with his Kung Fu, and that we were all just outdated troglodytes. It turns out he was just preaching waving his hands around in front of his face and sidestepping every time i moved trying to chop at my throat. It was rather ineffective.
You might not be coming across like you think you can take anyone, but you are coming across like you know better than everyone.

You might be more of a 'show me' type, but thats also you. Not a global standard. Your offer to critique and such by video also implies youre the amazing amazingless that we should all be privelidged for getting videos looked at by. The information youre sharing is mostly 'My way is better than all these things', which really isnt too beneficial.

Yes, a great majority of people/instructors regardless of background can benefit from the improvements I could provide. This has already been my experience at large. Offering to train together to help someone is not a challenge - there is no need for bravado or fighting - friendly demonstration is most normally more than sufficient.

And now youre pulling a Zanjael, and having good reasoning, backed by unassuring information. You say 'improvements', but its still mostly preaching your method as being the greatest, and many others as being foolish by comparison.

sorry if that comes across as rude

Now, much in the same way, its hard to have conversations like this without there being a tone of hostility, but i assure you, i possess none here. I shall trust that you dont either

 

[Supra Vijai]

And hence comes the factor many forget.

Not all Systems will work that way. I find that systems that use shorter movements tend to also be into things like keeping the hands relaxed. Then You can find plenty of Boxers whos hands physically vibrate with tension. Or Professional Fighters who only hold open hands before attacking, then keep them shut throughout attacks.
If the hands are closed, the forearms are still available to you.
Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something, your block will barely be a slap.

I dunno where youre getting your ideas from, but your way aint the only way. And if its a scientifical thing, the many times ive been hit in the ribs should have broken at least one, given the force behind them. It hasnt happened yet. And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.

You also seem to be overlooking things like the fact that Wing Chun Chain Punching is a method of applying a particular economical punch, and push. It isnt their entire punching system. The Reverse Punch is no different with exception to how its executed than a rear hand Straight. Complication doesnt automatically make something more effective. Technically, a knee strike will feel stronger if you swing a straight leg up, the bend it. But if you take the time to strengthen your muscles, youll wonder how you were ever so silly.


Yeah. Those silly unenlightened noobs.


Again: Im sure what youve been taught is fine. But if you were preaching the one true martial way to get things as good as possible, it would be very commonly known of by now. And i fail to see how meeting the governer of NSW and attending a parliament hearing helps, when most Australians couldnt be bothered doing that.


You really do come across as thinking you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far, ive been putting that down to some poor wording. Im starting to reconsider this.



Thats part of your problem, likely. Youre making it sound like Martial Arts is one big round egg. But the methods and approaches of one system, are not those of another. What you have learnt is one system. Not the figure of the apparently singular global Martial Art that all these noobs call by different names for some reason.



I mostly just keep thinking about boxing this kid who claimed that he could 'take anyone' with his Kung Fu, and that we were all just outdated troglodytes. It turns out he was just preaching waving his hands around in front of his face and sidestepping every time i moved trying to chop at my throat. It was rather ineffective.
You might not be coming across like you think you can take anyone, but you are coming across like you know better than everyone.

You might be more of a 'show me' type, but thats also you. Not a global standard. Your offer to critique and such by video also implies youre the amazing amazingless that we should all be privelidged for getting videos looked at by. The information youre sharing is mostly 'My way is better than all these things', which really isnt too beneficial.



And now youre pulling a Zanjael, and having good reasoning, backed by unassuring information. You say 'improvements', but its still mostly preaching your method as being the greatest, and many others as being foolish by comparison.



Now, much in the same way, its hard to have conversations like this without there being a tone of hostility, but i assure you, i possess none here. I shall trust that you dont either

What he said.

I decided to step away from the forum last night as I was feeling a little snippy and didn't want to post something I'd later regret. Finally got a chance to come back online and Cyriacus has worded a reply better than I could have!

 

[Supra Vijai]

And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.

This is the only part I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't say that, Mike Tyson broke his hand punching someone in the face during a street fight. A little closer to home a friend of mine busted up his hand/wrist quite badly throwing a punch but being just a fraction off with the angling and that was against a bag, not someone trying to actively hit him. So yeah, you can quite realistically break your hand throwing a punch if the wrong target is attacked

 

[GaryR]

Hello,

First, Supra Vijai, thank you for refraining from being snippy, I'll address Cyriacus points, and attempt to do the same, apologies in advance for any poor wording that makes me potentially sound like and A@@.

Not all Systems will work that way. I find that systems that use shorter movements tend to also be into things like keeping the hands relaxed. Then You can find plenty of Boxers whos hands physically vibrate with tension. Or Professional Fighters who only hold open hands before attacking, then keep them shut throughout attacks.

No forgotten facts--Of course not all systems work that way, I never said that. Short or long movements can be relaxed, and they are effectively executed as such in IMA + they are done correctly and some other styles/sytems. Regardless of being open or shut at what stage, it doesn't have to make a huge difference in fighting. I's just the way I and many others do it is more effective/efficient. Plus as you said--there are always forearms, and sometimes they are easier to use than the hands during interception attack etc.

If the hands are closed, the forearms are still available to you.

Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something, your block will barely be a slap.

Of course the forearms are, I have numerous tactile sensitivity drills that teach that and more.

Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something, your block will barely be a slap.

I don't know how this relates to anything I said? I don't know exactly what you mean by "stop", you should blend/re-direct etc. Additionally it should be one-second move-(intercept etc / counter & take their center).

I dunno where youre getting your ideas from, but your way aint the only way. And if its a scientifical thing, the many times ive been hit in the ribs should have broken at least one, given the force behind them. It hasnt happened yet. And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.

I'm getting my ideas from over a decade of teaching and a lot of testing and training/teaching numerous people from various arts. Of course my way "ain't" [sic] the only way. I fail to understand what your ribs have anything to do with what I've said. Perhaps you think your physiology is somehow metaphysically stronger than others? Ridiculous. One can be trained to take hits better, damage minimization should be taught in all systems, it can be invaluable, anybody can get hit...

You also seem to be overlooking things like the fact that Wing Chun Chain Punching is a method of applying a particular economical punch, and push. It isnt their entire punching system. The Reverse Punch is no different with exception to how its executed than a rear hand Straight. Complication doesnt automatically make something more effective. Technically, a knee strike will feel stronger if you swing a straight leg up, the bend it. But if you take the time to strengthen your muscles, youll wonder how you were ever so silly.

I never said chain punching is their entire punching system, please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said complication makes something necessarily more effective - KISS is key - the mechanics/principles I have glossed over summarily may seem difficult at first, but the training makes it second nature and gradates the students up in skill so functionality is not sacrificed for things over their head and skill level grasp.

Again: Im sure what youve been taught is fine. But if you were preaching the one true martial way to get things as good as possible, it would be very commonly known of by now. And i fail to see how meeting the governer of NSW and attending a parliament hearing helps, when most Australians couldnt be bothered doing that.

I disagree that it would be / IS commonly known. Tai Chi was brought to the US for example and popularized as a heath dance - loosing much of the martial interest / skills. Many dojo's became Mcdojo's of all styles. The "good stuff" is hard to find in most styles (especially in the realistic combative context). If you dont' think so, you are just VERY lucky, or have less exposure. Not all styles are created equal. At their pinnacle there are arts that are comparatively more effective than others. True-- most Aussies wouldn't bother-I just enjoyed the country and wanted to learn...

You really do come across as thinking you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far, ive been putting that down to some poor wording. Im starting to reconsider this.

Well, I'm not going to apologize for my talent, training, skill and experience level. As I said before, I WOULD put my material against anyone's in the world (with the exceptions of ground-fighting and weapons work). Most of communication is non-verbal, much context is lost through this venue, I get along with 99% of people in person, so perhaps you can reconsider giving me the benefit of the doubt?

Thats part of your problem, likely. Youre making it sound like Martial Arts is one big round egg. But the methods and approaches of one system, are not those of another. What you have learnt is one system. Not the figure of the apparently singular global Martial Art that all these noobs call by different names for some reason.

Well, I'm sorry if that is what you inferred (it's all one round egg) -- I am fully aware it's not. There are seemingly endless variations on each of the numerous arts. I have NOT just learned one system, I have learned many, and have had extensive exposure to many more styles via teaching / training / traveling.

I mostly just keep thinking about boxing this kid who claimed that he could 'take anyone' with his Kung Fu, and that we were all just outdated troglodytes. It turns out he was just preaching waving his hands around in front of his face and sidestepping every time i moved trying to chop at my throat. It was rather ineffective.

I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.

You might not be coming across like you think you can take anyone, but you are coming across like you know better than everyone.

In many cases, in a combative context-- I do know better than most everyone else. Again, I won't apologize for this, and I am willing to be proven wrong, I won't hold my breath, but if so the beer is on me :bangahead:.

You might be more of a 'show me' type, but thats also you. Not a global standard. Your offer to critique and such by video also implies youre the amazing amazingless that we should all be privelidged for getting videos looked at by. The information youre sharing is mostly 'My way is better than all these things', which really isnt too beneficial.

Well "show me" should be a global standard, otherwise it's just academic talk / mouth-boxing.

You would be privileged to have me thoroughly review a video for you to help you out, my time is valuable, and my instruction/methods are world-class regardless of your current perspective. Like I said, I'm here to share, If you listened / learned / trained and tested correctly you would see results.

And now youre pulling a Zanjael, and having good reasoning, backed by unassuring information. You say 'improvements', but its still mostly preaching your method as being the greatest, and many others as being foolish by comparison.

Well, I'm sorry but I don't have time to back it with volumes of "[]assuring information" --you also failed to specify WHAT information? I am one of the few that is NON-ANNONYMOUS here, and will put my money where my mouth is so to speak. Unlike yourself, I will not equivocate by saying "show me" is not the global standard. Again, I won't apologize-- but my methods are among the greatest. But, I didn't get there on my own, I had a lot of help, luck, and work behind it among other things. Moreover, YES, many others are foolish by comparison. I can point out where, why, how, and demonstrate how to improve--if you think that is preaching, fine-I consider it sharing and discussing.

Now, much in the same way, its hard to have conversations like this without there being a tone of hostility, but i assure you, i possess none here. I shall trust that you don't either

I agree it can be hard to not come across as hostile in these types of conversations- (maybe one of the few agreements we may have ) - as I mentioned - much of communication is non-verbal. No hostility here brother, I have a guest room and a beer/tea waiting for any friendly MA brothers/sisters in town, as I said, I get along with most people in person.

Best regards,

Gary

 

[Cyriacus]

This is the only part I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't say that, Mike Tyson broke his hand punching someone in the face during a street fight. A little closer to home a friend of mine busted up his hand/wrist quite badly throwing a punch but being just a fraction off with the angling and that was against a bag, not someone trying to actively hit him. So yeah, you can quite realistically break your hand throwing a punch if the wrong target is attacked

I mean, actually personally. Ive seen a fair few little scraps, ive been to two boxing gyms, and ive seen someone punch a brick wall in frustration. I know its possible, but ive just never seen it.

No forgotten facts--Of course not all systems work that way, I never said that. Short or long movements can be relaxed, and they are effectively executed as such in IMA + they are done correctly and some other styles/sytems. Regardless of being open or shut at what stage, it doesn't have to make a huge difference in fighting. I's just the way I and many others do it is more effective/efficient. Plus as you said--there are always forearms, and sometimes they are easier to use than the hands during interception attack etc.

I know you didnt say that. Its what you implied.
Assuming youre not filling in blanks to suit a purpose (That isnt an implication, either. Im just throwing that in just in case its needed later), this makes a fair bit more sense than your previous statement at least.

Of course the forearms are, I have numerous tactile sensitivity drills that teach that and more.

And just like Ras, Youve got something for everything

I don't know how this relates to anything I said? I don't know exactly what you mean by "stop", you should blend/re-direct etc. Additionally it should be one-second move-(intercept etc / counter & take their center).

Lets put that down to poor wording on your part, because it sounded like you were saying that you should close your hands as you punch, so that you could stop the punch and change to a parry or block.

I'm getting my ideas from over a decade of teaching and a lot of testing and training/teaching numerous people from various arts. Of course my way "ain't" [sic] the only way. I fail to understand what your ribs have anything to do with what I've said. Perhaps you think your physiology is somehow metaphysically stronger than others? Ridiculous. One can be trained to take hits better, damage minimization should be taught in all systems, it can be invaluable, anybody can get hit...

And yet you often very softly downspeak other systems whilst implying your way is better.
I do not think my physiology is metaphysically stronger than others. Im referring to the fact that scientifically, they should be broken. Based on a the force on contact. This was incase your ideas were one of those science bound things, where you cant punch in a street fight and your body is a delicate flower. It may be more common than you think.

I never said chain punching is their entire punching system, please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said complication makes something necessarily more effective - KISS is key - the mechanics/principles I have glossed over summarily may seem difficult at first, but the training makes it second nature and gradates the students up in skill so functionality is not sacrificed for things over their head and skill level grasp.

I didnt put words in your mouth - Its the implication you made. If that implication was unintended, just say so. Youre just as guilty of that as i am, given that you literally just asked me if i think my body is metaphysically stronger than everyone elses.
You didnt say complication makes things more effective - I said that, as a point unto itself. Keeping your hands open during a punch, and closing it on the end, even if it added power, still puts your fingers at an increased risk however you look at it. It is simpler, to hold a closed fist.
If training can make anything second nature, than everything is simple by default.

I disagree that it would be / IS commonly known. Tai Chi was brought to the US for example and popularized as a heath dance - loosing much of the martial interest / skills. Many dojo's became Mcdojo's of all styles. The "good stuff" is hard to find in most styles (especially in the realistic combative context). If you dont' think so, you are just VERY lucky, or have less exposure. Not all styles are created equal. At their pinnacle there are arts that are comparatively more effective than others. True-- most Aussies wouldn't bother-I just enjoyed the country and wanted to learn...

Thats because in most places where they do Tai Chi, it IS a Health Dance with very little martial interest or skill
Ive been to plenty of places in this country - We really dont have it too terribly bad, as compared to what i hear of McDojos in various other places.
Did you learn much from listening to the politicians complain

Well, I'm not going to apologize for my talent, training, skill and experience level. As I said before, I WOULD put my material against anyone's in the world (with the exceptions of ground-fighting and weapons work). Most of communication is non-verbal, much context is lost through this venue, I get along with 99% of people in person, so perhaps you can reconsider giving me the benefit of the doubt?

Im still giving you the benefit of the doubt - I only really take issue to you claiming to be able to 'improve' anyone, whilst softly downspeaking some other systems. I can provide quotes, if needed.

Well, I'm sorry if that is what you inferred (it's all one round egg) -- I am fully aware it's not. There are seemingly endless variations on each of the numerous arts. I have NOT just learned one system, I have learned many, and have had extensive exposure to many more styles via teaching / training / traveling.

Its pretty much what you said - Ill take your word for it that it wasnt intended.

I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.

The implication is that some people think too much and move too little
Im sure You are effective - Whether thats the result of Your style or You remains to be seen here.

In many cases, in a combative context-- I do know better than most everyone else. Again, I won't apologize for this, and I am willing to be proven wrong, I won't hold my breath, but if so the beer is on me :bangahead:.

Ill say this: Alot of people are combatively ignorant. But thats symptomatic of alot of people not 'wanting' that side of Martial Arts these days, thereby making the Combatively oriented a minority. Some of which use this forum.

Well "show me" should be a global standard, otherwise it's just academic talk / mouth-boxing.

The problem with Mouth Boxing, only arises when someone is trying to 'win'.

If you listened / learned / trained and tested correctly you would see results.

The same can be said of any system.

Well, I'm sorry but I don't have time to back it with volumes of "[]assuring information" --you also failed to specify WHAT information? I am one of the few that is NON-ANNONYMOUS here, and will put my money where my mouth is so to speak. Unlike yourself, I will not equivocate by saying "show me" is not the global standard. Again, I won't apologize-- but my methods are among the greatest. But, I didn't get there on my own, I had a lot of help, luck, and work behind it among other things. Moreover, YES, many others are foolish by comparison. I can point out where, why, how, and demonstrate how to improve--if you think that is preaching, fine-I consider it sharing and discussing.

In this case, having open hands until right before a punch. Im not saying its bad, at all. Im objecting to it being implied as being better than other methods.
Cyriacus is a nickname i got in highschool. Dont ask.
And this is not Facebook - Of course many of us are anonymous

If anything is foolish by comparison, its the result of that outlet being one teaching degraded content. The preaching is the praise of ones own system.

I agree it can be hard to not come across as hostile in these types of conversations- (maybe one of the few agreements we may have ) - as I mentioned - much of communication is non-verbal. No hostility here brother, I have a guest room and a beer/tea waiting for any friendly MA brothers/sisters in town, as I said, I get along with most people in person.

In closing, i dont think theres anything wrong with what youre doing, teaching, or saying. Only the view that its the better way. I experimentally tried the whole hand open>close near contact thing yesterday. It works just fine - But i would have to specifically train it to have a decent amount of force in it. Ive trained a different method of punching, and as a result, have more force in that. If id learnt it the other way from three years ago, id be using the open hand closing near contact, and itd probably be equally forceful to the slightly modified reverse punch I tend to use.

...Is the tea green, and the beer still cold?

 

[Zenjael]

I just re-read the OP and am not sure if this has been covered already but, ASK YOUR TEACHER! If you're emulating him and he has built a reputation on it then surely he can tell you what it's called even if he doesn't think you're ready to know the "secret" behind it.

To Supra Vijai; I have contacted him, electronically so I could ask in more detail. His son just graduated Monday, and they are tied up in that. He said nothing about 'no, i won't teach it' he said at some other point when he's not busy. Considering he's retired from teaching martial arts, give it some credit that he opted to respond at all, to a question of that nature. I have no idea why a teacher would use a technique on you that you are not ready yourself to learn. That would seem kinda vain, and he is anything but that. When I practice with white belts, I limit myself to their level, using their techniques. I'm not trying to WoW them, or beat them, im trying to train them, and hopefully, be better than me someday. When I spar with blue belts, I limit myself to the curriculum they know.

Some styles don't have established curriculum, but even then, if this REALLY is a 'martial art secret' perhaps I should look at it as a compliment that he used it on me. That I was worth it.
And... considering he was very well aware of my ability to learn, and utilize techniques usually on first sight, there's a bit more to it than saying he's hiding something from me.

When he closed, I was a 1st dan in his system, even if higher ranked in others. I did not, and have not, learned all there is to from Chung Do Kwan, and Master Khan.

Cyrianus; the terminology you are using is what I would say is overwhelming the opponent, though honestly neither word is truly appropriate, since it can mislead and obfuscate between different tactics.

I know what you speak of in relation to the second kind of jamming. It happens a lot in Jiujitsu. the problem I have with that, and the only problem, is that the jams wouldn't realistically occur because you NEVER run out of options. Your opponent, presuming it's a single one, does not have enough limbs to restrain every part of your body. I can give example after example, but let's put it like this- in practice, things will not escalate past a point, normally. On the street, those kinds of jams dont really happen. Mainly because you should at that point be ripping their arteries from whichever spot is closest, and trying to maim them with and part of your body you can.

If they hold you like that, they have made themself vulnerable preoccupying themself with you. Make them pay for it. Er, outside of practice, on the street that is. Please take care of your partners, or they won't be one for long.

I've heard of this referred to as a "spike" within the Krav Maga school I trained at briefly. Literally your elbows form a point like that of a spike which you use to drive into your opponent to drive them back.

With regards to the swatting the jab out of the way and moving in, would that still be "jamming" or moving more into the "countering" territory? I see it as the latter but that could just be my understanding of the terminology


You can also use the spike to control their arm, given how close you're willing to get. It's the nicer way of defending with it. Obviously the normative is to ram the hand with the spike, especially at the fingers. Let the energy of their swing help self-destruct that pretty ball of joints they have.

Not exactly. After all, repeating poor form, bad distancing, bad angling, poor technique etc is just going to imprint such bad technique (and so on). And I'm not sure what you're meaning by "contemplating"...

To Chris Parker; I think we all know that when somebody says repetition they keep this in mind, 'Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect.'

Sarcasm aside that you really think another human being has never experienced adrenaline... in a contact sport... you should open your mind to more than regionalistic politics. Korea was not always KOREA. Heck, it's not even Korea now. Japan, too, may very well have been colonized by the Chinese.

Which certainly implies importation of ideas could happen. Buddhism certainly did, and I wonder what they are oft popularized as practicing as well?


To GaryR; Too many posts to quote at once, but I assure you I read them all twice to make sure I could retain what you wrote.

The handstrikes I use are usually redirection from blocks. Think of it as an extension of the arm, blocking, and the finished extension usurps their force from their attack because you make contact and slide, transferring that kinetic energy. All you have to do then is reach out, and I've found even a tap with little force of my own can do more damage than I'd like. Normally I just block now, tapping, and extend. But when I am doing the technique in the OP, there is no defense, it is all offense, and I am not trying to block and attack together, as is the norm for how I trade hands. The point of it is to get in, and hit.

I wish a term came to mind what to call it when your hand is loose, but it is still strong, firm, though not locked. I'd say tense, but that's the opposite, since it impedes channeling of force.

This method of punching is not common, its not surprising you can't fathom it. The body weight can be/is behind it. The power is generated from the feet up - turning the waist, exploding-expanding, contracting, coiling/spiraling - its all body mechanics and physics. Also behind the strike is "fajing" or explosive energy - its a concept from internal martial arts, again, not common to find people who can apply fajing and full body power mechanics to seamless elliptical punches.

It's far from a series of taps, each strike can be stronger, faster, and smoother than a reverse punch, as well as better than wing chuns "chain punching" which is good, but still lacking power/mechanics by comparison.

I cannot word it any better; this is what I do. Thank you. To those who don't think this is correct... a prime example is Tony Jaa. Jam in the protector. You can visibly see where he can only do certain techniques because he has built up the momentum from pressing with those strikes. Sure, it's not real fighting, but the point is the same- the momentum it builds is powerful, and further, there are some techniques which are only executable once you have the momentum, or a very powerful explosive start.

I concur with your view about styles. To be honest, I actually think we have a lot in common in terms of martial arts philosophy (from the limited gleaning one can get online). I think it also the right view, though one I have found will get a lot of vehemance directed toward us. And while it might roll off our shoulders, others have much pride, which I'm sure you can see. I just try not to feed it. For example, Chung Do Kwan is superior to Shotokan, not because Shotokan has anything wrong, or is a bad style (it's in my opinion the most well-rounded martial art out there) but because the people who founded Chung Do Kwan learned Shotokan, and added to where it was missing. And it's still happening today. Where I live the Chung Do Kwan practiced has become heavily influenced -directly- by Okinawan Karate, most especially in ground work. This means there is a school of Chung Do Kwan, with many students, who as a part of their style, have groundwork comparable to any I can think of. In addition, certain members of this school also learned Krav Maga, implementing elbow work.

We are doing Chung Do Kwan, but we are doing a style more 'complete' in terms of addressing all levels of fighting. This doesn't mean the arts we've created it from (by no means was this a deliberate process for the handful of us who example this style) are defective, it's just that sometimes arts only focus on one aspect, REALLY WELL, and another style can benefit tremendously from the combination. Wing chun and TKD with Shotokan created modern Chung Do Kwan, at least out here in the D.C. area.

There is a video of mine, now in the horror section of me and a fellow practitioner doing elements of this. Yes, it is flashy, since the point of the video was to entertain friends. Both he, and I, have broken 3 one inch cinderblocks together, so we know how to hit. We choose not to out of respect for each other. A lot of people say we pull our punches, but I'd argue it's control. I would love any insight you might have to offer should you review it.

To whoever asked me what I meant by contemplating; to really learn TKD, all 7 styles, between each style there is a seperate methodology to how they execute their techniques. They can differ a lot, or so little it would be acceptable if a student from another style oriented it that way. I'm talking about the kind of difference of an inch when you place your fist horrizontally on your waist, or at naval level. Knife-hand below or at naval in MDK, and knife-hand protecting the solar plexus in CDK. Whether the fingers should be open in Oh Do Kwan, or bent in Jidokwan.

It goes on and on, and the only way to learn how to really differentiate, to be able to know that you threw a knife-hand in the jidokwan, when you meant to, and not when you meant to do the Chung Do Kwan, is to practice repetition, and really ponder hard about what you have been tought. The kind of hard thinking where you sit quietly, and just reflect over the differences, for hours.

That's contemplating, and when you actually understand the art you've been taught, it becomes one of the greatest ways to grow as a martial artist. I've found at least.

Here's my opinion on CMA kicking, since I feel there is no answer I can give which won't get a response which is a reflex slap down. They kick well.

Please try to tell me I'm wrong on that... just saying. Why would I engage in a conversation, on an irrelevant aside topic, when the only response will be rude disagreement. Are we martial artists, or are we above that kind of trite?

 

[K-man]

I ignored this post until now and didn't realise the fun I've been missing out on. OMG! Two of the greatest martial artists on the planet preening each other with their claims, on the same thread. Priceless! This has the potential to get even better. Popcorn anyone? opcorn: opcorn:

Just in case people missed the fun I'll post a few quotable quotes.

But we are speaking about the kind of nuance where in a single motion a person can get struck 3-4 times, all different techniques, as jks pointed out. If in the process of executing a front kick, you can knee them with degree of skill, I'd say why not differentiate the techniques?

And to be honest, you bring up a good point. The chambering-kicks should be considered different than non-chamber kicks, though can oft be combined. If there's an entire methodology toward kicking which introduces an added step, which creates a marked differentiation in power... I'd say it warrants its own classification with kicking. Likewise, it's component parts, if combat oriented, could arguably be considered unique techniques in their own right.

Absolutely brilliant! I just wish I'd said it!

I don't pick and choose, at least not in the sense implied by that particular wording. I use what works, for me, and do not. There is a place where perhaps I could use it, by why would I implement the wrist work from Wing Chun, when the ox-jaw works well as it is (given I occasionally suffer from carpal tunnel thanks to computer work? I'm just saying at some point 'picking and choosing' isn't out of a party bag, and does rest on strategy.

I can think of a more likely cause.

This method of punching is not common, its not surprising you can't fathom it.

.....

If you can't fathom how the punching technique I described could be anything but a "tap" your idea of linking, explosive power ect. is likely very lacking comparatively. White belts in every style should be taught kinetic linking / mechanics in the begging (they often are in their styles "version of it", but as one gets more advanced the circles can become tighter, more explosive, and more fluid. If I'm preaching to the choir--cool, but nothing indicates you have any idea how to comparatively efficiently and powerfully perform the principles/methods I am describing, its just not likely you can (of course with training you probably could) sorry if that comes across as rude, but I think you are likely way out of your depth here.

.....

I am aware that it is a big claim. The "supreme master"?? Lol, do you see any titles in my signature or in my posts?? I am quite against titles of such. I would however put my material against anyone's in the world....

.....

Yes, a great majority of people/instructors regardless of background can benefit from the improvements I could provide. This has already been my experience at large.

.....

I know many of my shortcomings, and am working them-- and I am not so arrogant as to believe that nobody can help me improve-or even kick my a@@-I can name a handful. Text only refutes from the "peanut gallery" who has no experience with my material-or material of the like- is taken as seriously as it needs to be on a case-by-case basis. I'm more of a "show me" kind of person - much of this stuff has to be felt, many subtle mechanics can't be seen well at a more advanced level - purely academic discussion is good -but it only goes so far--hence my offer to train with folks in person. Plus, my offer to critique, teach, and discuss via video is quite generous.

More danger of carpal tunnel here too!

It doesn't get much better than this.

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyrianus; the terminology you are using is what I would say is overwhelming the opponent, though honestly neither word is truly appropriate, since it can mislead and obfuscate between different tactics.

Overwhelmed by way of Jamming.

I know what you speak of in relation to the second kind of jamming. It happens a lot in Jiujitsu. the problem I have with that, and the only problem, is that the jams wouldn't realistically occur because you NEVER run out of options. Your opponent, presuming it's a single one, does not have enough limbs to restrain every part of your body. I can give example after example, but let's put it like this- in practice, things will not escalate past a point, normally. On the street, those kinds of jams dont really happen. Mainly because you should at that point be ripping their arteries from whichever spot is closest, and trying to maim them with and part of your body you can.

It also happens very frequently in Boxing, in My experience, when two people stop patiently outside-fighting each other, and inevitably start brawling a bit.
And Youre kinda presuming You can simply 'maim your opponent'. Thats well and good, but You need to be in a position from which to do it first. Given that theyre trying to maim You, and everything.

If they hold you like that, they have made themself vulnerable preoccupying themself with you. Make them pay for it. Er, outside of practice, on the street that is. Please take care of your partners, or they won't be one for long.

Youre the one who holds them - Specifically, holding them in place, for whatever you intend to do.

With regards to the swatting the jab out of the way and moving in, would that still be "jamming" or moving more into the "countering" territory? I see it as the latter but that could just be my understanding of the terminology

It can be any punch, too. It argue that its easier with barrage type attacks, because you can usually just grab both ways and get one or two wrists with it. Its Jamming. Countering is what comes after.

You can also use the spike to control their arm, given how close you're willing to get. It's the nicer way of defending with it. Obviously the normative is to ram the hand with the spike, especially at the fingers. Let the energy of their swing help self-destruct that pretty ball of joints they have.

Id prefer to ram the torso area with the spike, personally. As much as elbowing hands can work, too much accuracy is needed.
Unless You, say, grab their wrist first.

 

[clfsean]

Here's my opinion on CMA kicking, since I feel there is no answer I can give which won't get a response which is a reflex slap down. They kick well.

Please try to tell me I'm wrong on that... just saying. Why would I engage in a conversation, on an irrelevant aside topic, when the only response will be rude disagreement. Are we martial artists, or are we above that kind of trite?

No... you can give a great, well thought & honest answer & be lauded & applauded. Then rational, well mannered & behaved conversation can ensue, which I think we all like.

However when you make statements as you have done (Wing Chun wrist thing / Southern CMA kicking) just in this thread & given your background that you established already, of course the first thing to happen is a Red Flag! It'd be like me talking about battle experiences in Afganistan but when asked basic things like MOS or such, my response was "I don't wanna talk about" but then I keep talking about it using my experience with Call of Duty 3 as a background... what do you think the response to me would be on anything after that even slightly alluding to it?

 

[Zenjael]

To Clfsean; because this isn't the topic of the thread, and I'm not actively trying to de-rail it, I am going to ignore questions like that. Make sense?

To Cyriacus I feel there should be a standard in MA concerning diction used. I try to be as specific as possible, since I often hear people calling the very same techniques (even if from different styles) different names, which is very confusing. For example; I've heard a snap kick called a front kick, while a front kick (if you want to call it that simplistically) uses the ball of the foot, and the snap kick the instep. I would call a front kick out like this, 'front leg front kick' (normally left foot is forward in such drills, or foot placement is already been established.

Likewise, reverse (such as in kicking), inverting a technique should not be given to unique techniques. There should be no inverted knife-hand, but rather a knifehand which was executed with an invert. That is my philosophy.

To K-man; I'm 22 if carpal tunnel is my most heinous hurtie, I think I'm fine thus far.

 

[clfsean]

To Clfsean; because this isn't the topic of the thread, and I'm not actively trying to de-rail it, I am going to ignore questions like that. Make sense?

No, since you brought it into this topic in the first place. Please tell us about your experience with Wing Chun so you can better describe the "Wing Chun wrist thing" you brought up. You... no one else brought it up.

 

[K-man]

To K-man; I'm 22 if carpal tunnel is my most heinous hurtie, I think I'm fine thus far.

As I said, "I can think of a more likely cause". Computers and MA training are not what I had in mind. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

To Cyriacus I feel there should be a standard in MA concerning diction used. I try to be as specific as possible, since I often hear people calling the very same techniques (even if from different styles) different names, which is very confusing. For example; I've heard a snap kick called a front kick, while a front kick (if you want to call it that simplistically) uses the ball of the foot, and the snap kick the instep. I would call a front kick out like this, 'front leg front kick' (normally left foot is forward in such drills, or foot placement is already been established.

Likewise, reverse (such as in kicking), inverting a technique should not be given to unique techniques. There should be no inverted knife-hand, but rather a knifehand which was executed with an invert. That is my philosophy.
.

Id say that depends on the System, a bit. To Me, a Snap Kick is a Kick which snaps back. A Thrust Kick is a Kick which thrusts forward and down. And so forth. But the kick itself could be a front kick, side kick, stomp kick, and so on.

No... you can give a great, well thought & honest answer & be lauded & applauded. Then rational, well mannered & behaved conversation can ensue, which I think we all like.

However when you make statements as you have done (Wing Chun wrist thing / Southern CMA kicking) just in this thread & given your background that you established already, of course the first thing to happen is a Red Flag! It'd be like me talking about battle experiences in Afganistan but when asked basic things like MOS or such, my response was "I don't wanna talk about" but then I keep talking about it using my experience with Call of Duty 3 as a background... what do you think the response to me would be on anything after that even slightly alluding to it?

Hey, we all know that in the army, Youre trained to do burpees to avoid being shot.

 

[jks9199]

To Clfsean; because this isn't the topic of the thread, and I'm not actively trying to de-rail it, I am going to ignore questions like that. Make sense?

To Cyriacus I feel there should be a standard in MA concerning diction used. I try to be as specific as possible, since I often hear people calling the very same techniques (even if from different styles) different names, which is very confusing. For example; I've heard a snap kick called a front kick, while a front kick (if you want to call it that simplistically) uses the ball of the foot, and the snap kick the instep. I would call a front kick out like this, 'front leg front kick' (normally left foot is forward in such drills, or foot placement is already been established.

Likewise, reverse (such as in kicking), inverting a technique should not be given to unique techniques. There should be no inverted knife-hand, but rather a knifehand which was executed with an invert. That is my philosophy.

To K-man; I'm 22 if carpal tunnel is my most heinous hurtie, I think I'm fine thus far.

But you persistently, even insistently, misuse words... (and have tried to justify this by claiming it's because you're in college, writing academic papers, even when corrected by folks with significant portions of the alphabet appended to their names... and who have had papers published in scholarly journals.)

A front kick (or many other kicks) may be executed in a few ways. One is a snapping motion; another is a thrusting motion. The technique may be similar, and the striking surfaces identical. I can front thrust with the ball of my foot or the heel (or even the instep), or I can use the same striking surfaces for a snap kick. Granted, the heel works better for a thrust and the ball for a snap kick, but it's not a limitation.

I can't even make sense out of half of your third paragraph, about reverse and inverted. Perhaps a visit to dictionary.com is in order?

 

[Tez3]

But you persistently, even insistently, misuse words... (and have tried to justify this by claiming it's because you're in college, writing academic papers, even when corrected by folks with significant portions of the alphabet appended to their names... and who have had papers published in scholarly journals.)

A front kick (or many other kicks) may be executed in a few ways. One is a snapping motion; another is a thrusting motion. The technique may be similar, and the striking surfaces identical. I can front thrust with the ball of my foot or the heel (or even the instep), or I can use the same striking surfaces for a snap kick. Granted, the heel works better for a thrust and the ball for a snap kick, but it's not a limitation.

I can't even make sense out of half of your third paragraph, about reverse and inverted. Perhaps a visit to dictionary.com is in order?

Quoted for truth! and much more restrained and polite than I would have written it! One can only take so much BS I'm afraid.

 

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by GaryR
“No forgotten facts--Of course not all systems work that way, I never said that. Short or long movements can be relaxed, and they are effectively executed as such in IMA + they are done correctly and some other styles/systems. Regardless of being open or shut at what stage, it doesn't have to make a huge difference in fighting. I's just the way I and many others do it is more effective/efficient. Plus as you said--there are always forearms, and sometimes they are easier to use than the hands during interception attack etc.
I know you didn’t say that. Its what you implied.”

Assuming you’re not filling in blanks to suit a purpose (That isnt an implication, either. Im just throwing that in just in case its needed later), this makes a fair bit more sense than your previous statement at least.

No, I’m not filling blanks to suit a purpose; I am just busy and rushed.
“Of course the forearms are, I have numerous tactile sensitivity drills that teach that and more.”

And just like Ras, You’ve got something for everything

I have no idea who Ras is, but the fact remains that my quote rings true, I’ll link you to video later with exactly that type of method / principal being applied.

“I don't know how this relates to anything I said? I don't know exactly what you mean by "stop", you should blend/re-direct etc. Additionally it should be one-second move-(intercept etc. / counter & take their center). “

Let’s put that down to poor wording on your part, because it sounded like you were saying that you should close your hands as you punch, so that you could stop the punch and change to a parry or block.

Poor wording for sure, apologies.
“
I'm getting my ideas from over a decade of teaching and a lot of testing and training/teaching numerous people from various arts. Of course my way "ain't" [sic] the only way. I fail to understand what your ribs have anything to do with what I've said. Perhaps you think your physiology is somehow metaphysically stronger than others? Ridiculous. One can be trained to take hits better, damage minimization should be taught in all systems, it can be invaluable, anybody can get hit... “

And yet you often very softly downspeak other systems whilst implying your way is better.

I softly down-speak because I am trying to be respectful to others. I could actually be MUCH harsher on other systems. I have had to demonstrate such harsh critiques and points of failure in the past in person w/other instructors, fortunately nobody has ever gotten hurt (much).

I do not think my physiology is metaphysically stronger than others. Im referring to the fact that scientifically, they should be broken. Based on a the force on contact.

If scientifically they shouldn’t be broken if they are not. Unless as I said you believe in Qi protection or some other ridiculous non-proven force. Nonetheless, I’m glad you ribs weren’t broken. This was incase your ideas were one of those science bound things, where you cant punch in a street fight and your body is a delicate flower. It may be more common than you think.

“Science bound”—I don’t believe in Qi or the supernatural if that’s what you mean. There is no evidence it exists, or makes any difference in fighting or combat. We have motion sensors and computer that can measure force, momentum, body mechanics, etc, down to the molectular level-no qi need apply. Of course you can punch in a street fight. Your body is not that delicate, and depending on age/size/strength etc. relatively we are all just about the same, a target is a target. I don’t know where you got the impression I thought the above, again putting my words in my mouth and drawing attenuated and non-cogent implications from my posts.

“I never said chain punching is their entire punching system, please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said complication makes something necessarily more effective - KISS is key - the mechanics/principles I have glossed over summarily may seem difficult at first, but the training makes it second nature and gradates the students up in skill so functionality is not sacrificed for things over their head and skill level grasp. “

I didnt put words in your mouth - Its the implication you made. If that implication was unintended, just say so. Youre just as guilty of that as i am, given that you literally just asked me if i think my body is metaphysically stronger than everyone elses.

The implication was unintended, you are drawing inferences and setting up a straw-man argument, please have me clarify before coming to conclusion’s, it’s a waste of time to correct you constantly for not directly addressing my quotes, and paraphrasing with what your incorrectly inferred.

“You didnt say complication makes things more effective - I said that, as a point unto itself. Keeping your hands open during a punch, and closing it on the end, even if it added power, still puts your fingers at an increased risk however you look at it. It is simpler, to hold a closed fist.
If training can make anything second nature, than everything is simple by default.”
I agree, it can put your fingers at more risks. But if you train correctly, and have enough skill the benefits of an open hand far outweigh the risks. Before impact the hand can become a palm strike, a knife edge strike, a finger strike, or a punch at numerous angles with torque, etc. This is a significant advantage, I guarantee you. If you think differently you are simply out of your depth, and your system/style is severely lacking. ---Sorry.

“I disagree that it would be / IS commonly known. Tai Chi was brought to the US for example and popularized as a heath dance - loosing much of the martial interest / skills. Many dojo's became Mcdojo's of all styles. The "good stuff" is hard to find in most styles (especially in the realistic combative context). If you dont' think so, you are just VERY lucky, or have less exposure. Not all styles are created equal. At their pinnacle there are arts that are comparatively more effective than others. True-- most Aussies wouldn't bother-I just enjoyed the country and wanted to learn...”

Thats because in most places where they do Tai Chi, it IS a Health Dance with very little martialinterest or skill Ive been to plenty of places in this country - We really dont have it too terribly bad, as compared to what i hear of McDojos in various other places.

Yeah, tai chi is a sad state of affairs, we may have it better, but there is still more bad than good. Perhaps TKD is to blame, it’s pervasive.

Did you learn much from listening to the politicians complain

I learned a lot. I think are senate / congress ought to operate more like Oz. They have a real debate, go back and forth, are witty, and don’t hold back. It was quite the experience, but I’m a geek.

“Well, I'm not going to apologize for my talent, training, skill and experience level. As I said before, I WOULD put my material against anyone's in the world (with the exceptions of ground-fighting and weapons work). Most of communication is non-verbal, much context is lost through this venue, I get along with 99% of people in person, so perhaps you can reconsider giving me the benefit of the doubt? “

Im still giving you the benefit of the doubt - I only really take issue to you claiming to be able to 'improve' anyone, whilst softly downspeaking some other systems. I can provide quotes, if needed.

Well thank you, I’ll try and give you the benefit as well. I understand you taking issue with that. It is quite a claim; but like I said my vast experience with instructors of countless arts bears it out, and I am willing to demonstrate and explicate. You can dislike me now, but if you actually learn something from me somehow --you will be thanking me later.

“Well, I'm sorry if that is what you inferred (it's all one round egg) -- I am fully aware it's not. There are seemingly endless variations on each of the numerous arts. I have NOT just learned one system, I have learned many, and have had extensive exposure to many more styles via teaching / training / traveling.”

Its pretty much what you said - Ill take your word for it that it wasnt intended.
Thanks, not intended.

“I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.”

The implication is that some people think too much and move too little Im sure You are effective - Whether thats the result of Your style or You remains to be seen here.

True, people do that. But I am the reverse, I like to learn to do—teach people to do real time, then get into the geek out thinking too much if one likes, some things can be taught concurrently for an understanding of the principals and mechanics etc.

“In many cases, in a combative context-- I do know better than most everyone else. Again, I won't apologize for this, and I am willing to be proven wrong, I won't hold my breath, but if so the beer is on me . “

Ill say this: Alot of people are combatively ignorant. But thats symptomatic of alot of people not 'wanting' that side of Martial Arts these days, thereby making the Combatively oriented a minority. Some of which use this forum.

True, and if those of us who are not combatively ignorant can help each other improve and keep each other sharp—we can ameliorate some of the ignorance. As I said, I do know better than most-thus I can be of a lot of help, and I am happy to do that.

“Well "show me" should be a global standard, otherwise it's just academic talk / mouth-boxing.
The problem with Mouth Boxing, only arises when someone is trying to 'win'.”
“If you listened / learned / trained and tested correctly you would see results.
The same can be said of any system.”

Well, I'm sorry but I don't have time to back it with volumes of "[]assuring information" --you also failed to specify WHAT information? I am one of the few that is NON-ANNONYMOUS here, and will put my money where my mouth is so to speak. Unlike yourself, I will not equivocate by saying "show me" is not the global standard. Again, I won't apologize-- but my methods are among the greatest. But, I didn't get there on my own, I had a lot of help, luck, and work behind it among other things. Moreover, YES, many others are foolish by comparison. I can point out where, why, how, and demonstrate how to improve--if you think that is preaching, fine-I consider it sharing and discussing.

In this case, having open hands until right before a punch. Im not saying its bad, at all. Im objecting to it being implied as being better than other methods. Cyriacus is a nickname i got in highschool. Dont ask.

I’m not implying it, Im expressly saying it’s better in most situations than having a closed fist the whole times. Even the tips of the fingers can be used to intercept and control an arm/elbow/wrist and the throw a person all in one smoothe motion-while simultaneously striking. The fingers aren’t “floppy” they have enough structure to do the job, and adjust if in harm’s way without thought. I highly doubt you can do the above, it is a bit higher level, and takes more time to be more dynamic and functional. Like I said, I’m sorry if that offends you, it’s just a fact.

And this is not Facebook - Of course many of us are anonymous

Which I think is a problem, and a bulwark to more objective discussion, and helps the signal to noise ratio. People who use their real names tend to feel more accountable for what they say. It’s just a fact of the internet and boards. So if you’re going to call someone out, I think it cowardly to hide behind a keyboard and alias.

If anything is foolish by comparison, its the result of that outlet being one teaching degraded content. The preaching is the praise of ones own system.

Many teach degraded content, part of the issue, true. I associate preaching with trying to push a “faith” on people—faith is a certainty without actual knowledge or evidence. When having a discussion I do the opposite of preach, I elaborate, and demonstrate, and offer to assist via video.

"I agree it can be hard to not come across as hostile in these types of conversations- (maybe one of the few agreements we may have ) - as I mentioned - much of communication is non-verbal. No hostility here brother, I have a guest room and a beer/tea waiting for any friendly MA brothers/sisters in town, as I said, I get along with most people in person. "

In closing, i dont think theres anything wrong with what youre doing, teaching, or saying. Only the view that its the better way.

Thank you, but I do actually think and my experience tells me that in many contexts, my way IS the better way. I’m sorry if that offends you, but you really have no facts to the contrary.
I experimentally tried the whole hand open>close near contact thing yesterday. It works just fine - But i would have to specifically train it to have a decent amount of force in it.
You would have to train it, which means you can’t really come to any real conclusions on its effectiveness in contrast to your current (merely 3 year old) method.

Ive trained a different method of punching, and as a result, have more force in that.

Exactly, so again you have NO idea on the actual contrast and difference in effectiveness, you don’t know if three years ago if I had taught you BOTH methods, you would definitely be able to tell the difference in effectiveness in both yourself in and others.

If I’d learnt it the other way from three years ago, I’d be using the open hand closing near contact, and I’d probably be equally forceful to the slightly modified reverse punch I tend to use.

Again, you have NO way of knowing that.

But like I said I am here to share, so I ripped my more than decade old instructional DVD into a web clip to illustrate some of my points as time goes on. The video is around an hour, and is packed with info and principals. Trained correctly one could spend a year or more simply learning the basic ideas and execution behind what is displayed. The mechanics, fluidity, real-time application only improves exponentially with time and training-it may take some time to make it work better than your current art (which many here have decades of practice in). It’s hard to re-wire someone’s mechanics and responses-especially the more experienced they are. But it can be done, incrementally at first, the as a whole, but that takes more hands on instruction, as everyone and every style had vast differences. If you do something similar to whats displayed look and play with the differences, build on that in understanding.

I have improved quite a bit in a decade, and looking back, I would approach a beginner DVD a bit differently. I will re-do the video at some point when I have time. It’s just not my main thing, I have a legal career to worry about. This instructional DVD was initially done to leave for my military students when I deployed. I later decided to sell them to make it worth my time, and quite frankly it is invaluable information for someone wanting to hone their combatives with better mechanics/movement/power & principals--even though I've already made many improvements since. The mechanics are also a bit more - mechanical, more smooth and explosive application is taught later-and some can be seen in near the end of the DVD--there is also a simpler method at the end (bad sequence I know). The punches I talked about here are also not shown-that is more advanced.

Furthermore, If anyone feels like critiquing please keep it constructive and non-conclusionary. Moreover, you should be able to adequately perform/apply the methods real-time before you can compare and be taken seriously.

Note; I am not giving anyone permission to edit, re-produce, or re-post the clip anywhere else.

Here is the link, enjoy. I will keep it up until my bandwidth is maxed-it’s a very long clip. It may take time to download (about half a gigabyte.)

http://www.flowingcombat.net/fc1_2000a.mov.3gp

...Is the tea green and the beer still cold?

Absolutely, and a spare bedroom if you don’t want to spring for a hotel—provided of course you’re not a crazy jerk—which I doubt.

Cheers,

Gary

 

[Tez3]

Zenjael and GaryR, this excellent organisation 'Plain English Campaign' has come up with a very useful thing for your computers when writing your posts so that us lesser mortals can actually understand what you are talking about. I know that many groups use their own slang/buzzwords/goggledegook to make those not of their group feel like outsiders, but it's a trick of the snobbish and the arrogant. If what you have to say is worth saying, it's worth saying in plain English.
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/drivel-defence.html

One could suspect that some are using this other 'toy' from them.
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/examples/gobbledygook-generator.html, that's fun but this is useful http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/recommended-reading.html

 

[Cyriacus]

I softly down-speak because I am trying to be respectful to others. I could actually be MUCH harsher on other systems. I have had to demonstrate such harsh critiques and points of failure in the past in person w/other instructors, fortunately nobody has ever gotten hurt (much).

This is where issuance arises. Would you kindly downspeak your own system for Me? Just a bit.

If scientifically they shouldn’t be broken if they are not. Unless as I said you believe in Qi protection or some other ridiculous non-proven force. Nonetheless, I’m glad you ribs weren’t broken. This was incase your ideas were one of those science bound things, where you cant punch in a street fight and your body is a delicate flower. It may be more common than you think.

I dont believe in Qi. I believe that overanalysing things makes it sound like things just break easy.

“Science bound”—I don’t believe in Qi or the supernatural if that’s what you mean. There is no evidence it exists, or makes any difference in fighting or combat. We have motion sensors and computer that can measure force, momentum, body mechanics, etc, down to the molectular level-no qi need apply. Of course you can punch in a street fight. Your body is not that delicate, and depending on age/size/strength etc. relatively we are all just about the same, a target is a target. I don’t know where you got the impression I thought the above, again putting my words in my mouth and drawing attenuated and non-cogent implications from my posts.

With all due respect, youre putting words in my mouth that i believe you think those things. They were examples of the line of thinking. I believe i did start each one with "for example".

The implication was unintended, you are drawing inferences and setting up a straw-man argument, please have me clarify before coming to conclusion’s, it’s a waste of time to correct you constantly for not directly addressing my quotes, and paraphrasing with what your incorrectly inferred.

And thats where youre wrong. See, im not trying to prove myself right about something here. Im interrogating why you think your method is so much better. And implications are a real thing, believe it or not. They can also be used as a way to evade a question by clarifying whether you are in favor of something or against it. Its important to bring up implications, and to comment on them, so that they can be clarified.

“You didnt say complication makes things more effective - I said that, as a point unto itself. Keeping your hands open during a punch, and closing it on the end, even if it added power, still puts your fingers at an increased risk however you look at it. It is simpler, to hold a closed fist.
If training can make anything second nature, than everything is simple by default.”
I agree, it can put your fingers at more risks. But if you train correctly, and have enough skill the benefits of an open hand far outweigh the risks. Before impact the hand can become a palm strike, a knife edge strike, a finger strike, or a punch at numerous angles with torque, etc. This is a significant advantage, I guarantee you. If you think differently you are simply out of your depth, and your system/style is severely lacking. ---Sorry.

Of course - Im just out of my depth for not having specifically trained something like this for an indeterminably long amount of time in order to be capable of applying it. I have no wish nor desire to do so, either. Which still says that your way is superior according to you.
And i for one use open hands. Just not like that.
Additionally, this assumes that under panic, adrenalin, and whatever else, that you can throw an open hand at someone then decide which strike youll turn it into.

Yeah, tai chi is a sad state of affairs, we may have it better, but there is still more bad than good. Perhaps TKD is to blame, it’s pervasive.

Perhaps - TKD, Karate, Kickboxing, Jiujutsu and such having McDojos seems common in the USA. I wouldnt be surprised if some people saw the moneymaking opportunity in simplifying things for a broad audience.

Well thank you, I’ll try and give you the benefit as well. I understand you taking issue with that. It is quite a claim; but like I said my vast experience with instructors of countless arts bears it out, and I am willing to demonstrate and explicate. You can dislike me now, but if you actually learn something from me somehow --you will be thanking me later.

I dont dislike you. I wont be thanking you later though

“I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.”

True, people do that. But I am the reverse, I like to learn to do—teach people to do real time, then get into the geek out thinking too much if one likes, some things can be taught concurrently for an understanding of the principals and mechanics etc.

You can do anything real-time in Training. The environment is different to one of panic or reaction. However, theres no need to continue that line of discussion.

True, and if those of us who are not combatively ignorant can help each other improve and keep each other sharp—we can ameliorate some of the ignorance. As I said, I do know better than most-thus I can be of a lot of help, and I am happy to do that.

That still assumes your combative method is superior, or anyone who adopts one akin to yours.

I’m not implying it, Im expressly saying it’s better in most situations than having a closed fist the whole times. Even the tips of the fingers can be used to intercept and control an arm/elbow/wrist and the throw a person all in one smoothe motion-while simultaneously striking. The fingers aren’t “floppy” they have enough structure to do the job, and adjust if in harm’s way without thought. I highly doubt you can do the above, it is a bit higher level, and takes more time to be more dynamic and functional. Like I said, I’m sorry if that offends you, it’s just a fact.

Perfect quote material. I can, in fact, intercept a strike with an open hand. To control, grab, push, restrain, or otherwise touch an arm, elbow, or wrist - Before either taking the person down, or using it as a means to strike them. But I use the point just at the base of the fingers. Its easier to grab with. I see no benefit over that to using the fingers themselves when theyre a smaller area, which is more privy to miss. In using the center of the hand, just at the start of the fingers, i have a minimal chance of missing. I can also do it consistently. Amazingly, i dont do it with your method.

Which I think is a problem, and a bulwark to more objective discussion, and helps the signal to noise ratio. People who use their real names tend to feel more accountable for what they say. It’s just a fact of the internet and boards. So if you’re going to call someone out, I think it cowardly to hide behind a keyboard and alias.

Youre welcome to your opinion.

Thank you, but I do actually think and my experience tells me that in many contexts, my way IS the better way. I’m sorry if that offends you, but you really have no facts to the contrary.
I experimentally tried the whole hand open>close near contact thing yesterday. It works just fine - But i would have to specifically train it to have a decent amount of force in it.
You would have to train it, which means you can’t really come to any real conclusions on its effectiveness in contrast to your current (merely 3 year old) method.

Im not trying to get you to say your way is inferior, or equal to all other ways. Theres nothing wrong with having a better way. But it isnt the standard for other better ways. It isnt the only better way, and better ways dont all need to be the same in order to be better. And while i have been training in this system for 3 years, its not the only training ive done in my life.
And again - I would have to train it for an indeterminable amount of time to even conclude its effectiveness in contrast to one you can use within a month or two. I have no desire to learn this method.

Exactly, so again you have NO idea on the actual contrast and difference in effectiveness, you don’t know if three years ago if I had taught you BOTH methods, you would definitely be able to tell the difference in effectiveness in both yourself in and others.

Ah - So it takes about three years to learn it. There we go.
But see, if i learnt it three years ago, id have gotten so used to it of course id find it effective.
I am not trying to prove you wrong, or your methods wrong, or even that youre wrong about being better. It doesnt concern me.
Im trying to put in that theres more than one way to be better.

Again, you have NO way of knowing that.

So i need to be really good at something to be able to talk about it?

Furthermore, If anyone feels like critiquing please keep it constructive and non-conclusionary. Moreover, you should be able to adequately perform/apply the methods real-time before you can compare and be taken seriously.

Do you mean our methods, or yours?
Because if its yours, then conversation over. Its like a sales pitch. "Learn my method, so you can have this conversation about it. Trust me!"

Here is the link, enjoy. I will keep it up until my bandwidth is maxed-it’s a very long clip. It may take time to download (about half a gigabyte.)

http://www.flowingcombat.net/fc1_2000a.mov.3gp

I might watch it this afternoon if i have time.

Absolutely, and a spare bedroom if you don’t want to spring for a hotel—provided of course you’re not a crazy jerk—which I doubt.

Cheers,

Gary

Perhaps this was all an elaborate conspiracy to get inside your house?