Training advice needed, please

[jks9199]

I thought it might, especially since the Goju Ryu place, one of the instructors wrote a book about this same subject, but like one of the above posters said, "What are you asking? Just dive in and don't ask questions or go away." That's pretty much the attitude everywhere.



Haha ... I think basically it boils down to one thing, which is making money. The schools are for profit institutions so it behooves them to keep students around doing katas for years. If they had an applications class for general karate waza/bunkai without kata I guess they figure they'll lose a ton of business.

Two observations, which go hand in hand, on this issue...

The first is that, before you can take apart and understand the applications of a form -- you have to really know the moves of the form. My system has 5 main core forms; a typical student tends to spend about a year working each form. The smart students find themselves going back to the beginning and really spending time understanding and working with the form. The lazier, but still intelligent, students want someone to hand the application and uses to them. The laziest... Learn it, then dump it until their asked to regurgitate it for some reason. Most seem to waiver somewhere between wanting the applications handed to them and dumping it...

The second is that a commercial school is, first and foremost, a business. They're going to give the customer what they want... And many customers don't want to work the same form, again and again and again, ad infinitum. They don't want to drill a technique until they understand it. They want to spend 5 minutes, then learn the next thing. I was lucky; that's not how I was taught, though I was taught in a non-commercial school.

 

[still learning]

Hello, You may want to try looking into JUDO. You will be surprise by how effective it can be on the streets.

Lots of people do not really know alot about JUDO. It is more than you think. Just experience for yourself? ...by trying a few classes and talking to the Sensi's
=========================================================

Ed parker, Tracy Kenpo, came from Kajukenpo, which started in Hawaii by 5 masters who came from different martial art backgrounds, took the best of each one and form (KA -Karate..ju - JUDO. Kenpo (chinese boxing), including Juijstu and Tang -So-Doo.

........JUDO...try it....you will be surprise how effective it is...and in the beginning...you will find it is hard to do....train hard...it will work for you!

NOTE: Have been training in Shotokan Karate,Now with UNIVERSAL Kempo Karate Schools (present art-which also came from Kajukenpo-OUR Professor's instructor -was the head of Kajukenpo.). and is now learning and practice JUDO...Aloha

 

[lostinseattle]

Hello, You may want to try looking into JUDO. You will be surprise by how effective it can be on the streets.

Yeah, I think Judo is good. I took it before but I got tired of hitting the mat hard all the time. They didn't do any striking in that class though, just throws and ground grappling.

Seattle does seem to be good for grappling and some MMA but I'm not really into that.

 

[Gufbal1982]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I've heard very good things about Kung Fu San Soo. Unfortunately the closest teacher is down in Olympia which is a bit of a drive.

Maybe Seattle just isn't a very good place for martial arts. There are a ton of schools but nothing that really jumps out as very combat oriented. I've heard a great many good things about a great many teachers here, but when I actually go to see them it just doesn't live up to expectations.

The problem with kenpo around here is that there are a couple of things: USSD and Temple Kung Fu. I studied at Temple Kung Fu for about a month until it became obvious I wasn't going to get much out of it. It splintered and the schools have broken away from the parent, but they're scattered all over now. In addition there's a lot of USSDs that are run by 1st level or 2nd level black belts and I have gone there but they just do very basic stuff and not with much emphasis on force or realism.

Overall, I've visited schools for wing chun, JKD, kenpo, krav maga, TKD, many types of karate, MMA, bagua, tai chi, ninjitsu, silat, boxing, kickboxing, USSD, Temple kung fu, FMA, aikido, hung gar and probably a few I've forgotten around here and nothing really is that great to spend time on.

Perhaps the problem is just the location.

USSD is Kempo. If you want a good Kempo system, by all means, go there...but, it's not what you are looking for. Try Hung Ga. It's a really good system.

 

[Blindside]

If you went into kenpo would you be willing to learn their forms?

Honestly I'm a bit put off by your post, you are somehow surprised when instructors don't think you aren't willing to learn because you told them you weren't. Maybe you aren't posting your actual thoughts well, even though you certainly seem articulate. I'm actually a bit hesitant to point you in the direction of people I know and trust, but I'm hoping that you are a bit more humble in person than you come across on the forum.

It sounds like you met Jerry Samuelson, so I'll recommend Frank Mateo at http://mateokajukenbo.com/ .

If you are willing to travel over to the eastside, PM me, and I'll give you contact information for the Silkwind Kenpo group. Maybe one of these will work for you.

Lamont

 

[lostinseattle]

If you went into kenpo would you be willing to learn their forms?

It depends upon the forms. Honestly probably not. They just do a mix of forms plus the Pinans, right?

Honestly I'm a bit put off by your post, you are somehow surprised when instructors don't think you aren't willing to learn because you told them you weren't. Maybe you aren't posting your actual thoughts well, even though you certainly seem articulate. I'm actually a bit hesitant to point you in the direction of people I know and trust, but I'm hoping that you are a bit more humble in person than you come across on the forum.

No, I didn't say any such thing. I suggested that one only needed one set of kata. I didn't say I didn't want to learn their katas. They each said the katas were absolutely necessary and it was necessary to learn their versions of the katas before doing any bunkai and I had a bad attitude thinking otherwise, and I should not attend their school.

It sounds like you met Jerry Samuelson, so I'll recommend Frank Mateo at http://mateokajukenbo.com/ .

Jerry does seem to be a good guy but he only does privates.

If you are willing to travel over to the eastside, PM me, and I'll give you contact information for the Silkwind Kenpo group. Maybe one of these will work for you.

Lamont

http://www.silkwindkenpo.com/

No, this doesn't sound good ... the entire "accountability" "roll call" and all that doesn't sound good. I don't believe in the entire discipline martial arts thing, and people getting all in angst over martial arts, which is probably part of why those instructors thought I had a bad attitude.

I think I just won't study in Seattle.

 

[Blindside]

I think I just won't study in Seattle.

I'm sure different martial arts instructors in other cities will be much more interested in teaching someone who won't learn their forms and isn't into the whole silly "martial arts discipline thing."

Lamont

 

[lostinseattle]

I'm sure different martial arts instructors in other cities will be much more interested in teaching someone who won't learn their forms and isn't into the whole silly "martial arts discipline thing."

Lamont

Yeah that's kindof why I quit karate. After getting my black belt in Shotokan and enduring years of forms and discipline, they never taught any traditional bunkai.

Therefore, I am through with that approach because it doesn't work. There's no reason to learn different versions of the same forms over and over again. It's a complete waste of time.

Honestly, you wonder why MMA folks laugh at most traditional martial artists. It's because most of them don't gain real fighting skill because of their approach. Whereas you can go to a boxing gym or kickboxing class and start learning something functional right away, something like karate requires a bunch of forms and you to do their versions which wastes literally years of time.

 

[Blindside]

Yeah that's kindof why I quit karate. After getting my black belt in Shotokan and enduring years of forms and discipline, they never taught any traditional bunkai.

Therefore, I am through with that approach because it doesn't work. There's no reason to learn different versions of the same forms over and over again. It's a complete waste of time.

Honestly, you wonder why MMA folks laugh at most traditional martial artists. It's because most of them don't gain real fighting skill because of their approach. Whereas you can go to a boxing gym or kickboxing class and start learning something functional right away, something like karate requires a bunch of forms and you to do their versions which wastes literally years of time.

So why are you chasing karate/kenpo/kung fu instruction? Why aren't you out on the mat at AMC learning straight up application?

 

[lostinseattle]

So why are you chasing karate/kenpo/kung fu instruction? Why aren't you out on the mat at AMC learning straight up application?

I'm not seeking instruction. I was asking advice for training for traditional bunkai/waza. Last I checked all they had at AMC was kickboxing/pankration. They don't do traditional bunkai/waza.

 

[lostinseattle]

USSD is Kempo. If you want a good Kempo system, by all means, go there...but, it's not what you are looking for. Try Hung Ga. It's a really good system.

I don't think you really get what I'm trying to describe here. I'm not looking to study another system. I already have a BB in Shotokan.

I went to those schools to check out what they did and if it was any good. I'm not looking for a kenpo system or any system. USSD is IMHO the very worst martial arts I've ever come across next to watered down TKD.

Exile was spot on about this. I guess I'm just on the wrong continent.

 

[exile]

I don't think you really get what I'm trying to describe here. I'm not looking to study another system. I already have a BB in Shotokan.

I went to those schools to check out what they did and if it was any good. I'm not looking for a kenpo system or any system. USSD is IMHO the very worst martial arts I've ever come across next to watered down TKD.

Hey Lost, you definitely don't need a new system. What you need is a better, more informed training environment with people who understand that e.g. a `block' is only very rarely a block, a `180º turn' is almost certainly part of a throw, and a `punch' could easily be best interpreted as part of a very damaging head twist. PNW area, your corner of it especially, probably has a goodly number of `radical' karateka who understand this view of kata and appreciate a matching ideal of realistic training. And anyone who's seen Iain Abernethy's DVDs on bunkai for the Pinan/Heian serious will very quickly give up any illusions that traditional karate isn't a devastating street-effective fighting system.

I have a bunch of stuff I have to get done, but I have some ideas about how you might go about finding a group of people to train with who aren't just interesting in sitting around swapping complaints about having to clean out their garage or whatever. And there are probably quite a few other people on MT who have ideas about this stuff... wrong contintent or not, you know what the IT techhies like to say: there are no problems, only solutions.

More a little later...

 

[lostinseattle]

That's very odd. LA Kane, who teaches at the Goju Ryu dojo that I contacted is a moderator on Abernathy's board. I guess I should contact him and see if they have anything without taking the goju ryu forms. But when I talked to the school owner he was pretty adamant about their forms.

 

[exile]

That's very odd. LA Kane, who teaches at the Goju Ryu dojo that I contacted is a moderator on Abernathy's board. I guess I should contact him and see if they have anything without taking the goju ryu forms. But when I talked to the school owner he was pretty adamant about their forms.

Kane??? Kane himself?? Yes, you should talk to him directly. He and Chris Wilder are the coauthors of the excellent The Way of Kata, very much influenced by Abernethy's approach to bunkai decoding; I'm currently in the middle of a great e-article by him on `shock blocks' available from IA's website:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_8.asp

My impression is, he's an excellent guy, someone with enormous credibility in the combat-applicable-MA world, and a very good writer (probably an excellent instructor). Contact him directly (short circuit the owner; you should get Kane's advice on your query, he's bound to have something useful to suggest), preferably in person. The difference between e-correspondence and face time is enormous, I've found...

 

[lostinseattle]

Kane??? Kane himself?? Yes, you should talk to him directly. He and Chris Wilder are the coauthors of the excellent The Way of Kata, very much influenced by Abernethy's approach to bunkai decoding; I'm currently in the middle of a great e-article by him on `shock blocks' available from IA's website:

I guess maybe I should go to the school. The owner though is the guy I talked to, Kris Wilder. He took offense at the not needing an entire new set of katas idea, however.

 

[lostinseattle]

Kane??? Kane himself?? Yes, you should talk to him directly. He and Chris Wilder are the coauthors of the excellent The Way of Kata, very much influenced by Abernethy's approach to bunkai decoding; I'm currently in the middle of a great e-article by him on `shock blocks' available from IA's website:

I guess maybe I should go to the school. The owner though is the guy I talked to, Kris Wilder. He took offense at the not needing an entire new set of katas idea, however.

It seems like any school is going to require you to do their forms no matter what. They may talk about traditional bunkai/waza and not needing a bunch of forms, but it sounds like every school is going to require you to do all of their forms. It doesn't seem like even Abernathy's school would let you just drill traditional waza/bunkai for years after doing just one form.

 

[Flying Crane]

It seems like any school is going to require you to do their forms no matter what. They may talk about traditional bunkai/waza and not needing a bunch of forms, but it sounds like every school is going to require you to do all of their forms.

well yes, whatever school you train with will certainly require that you learn their material. They can't really help you train material that you learned elsewhere, as they may not know it themselves. One way or the other, you need to learn their stuff, if you train with them. Hopefully, you will find a teacher who then helps you understand the application of what you have learned.

 

[Blindside]

I guess maybe I should go to the school. The owner though is the guy I talked to, Kris Wilder. He took offense at the not needing an entire new set of katas idea, however.

It seems like any school is going to require you to do their forms no matter what. They may talk about traditional bunkai/waza and not needing a bunch of forms, but it sounds like every school is going to require you to do all of their forms. It doesn't seem like even Abernathy's school would let you just drill traditional waza/bunkai for years after doing just one form.

Sort of hard to understand the deeper implications and applications of seiyunchin when you don't know the form....

 

[lostinseattle]

Sort of hard to understand the deeper implications and applications of seiyunchin when you don't know the form....

Yeah I thought about this a bit today and went by their school which was closed of course. They only have adult classes 2x a week, which is not really very good. 2x per week doesn't give much instruction.

You don't need to know a form to do applications. What do you think came first, applications or forms? Obviously forms did not come first.

I'm just going to give up on this because it's useless. If schools are so structured that they require forms, and if everybody requires a new set of forms, which is a waste of time, then realistically there is no way to gain decent skill in schools because you are wasting so much time in forms.

There's no point in going to karate schools because in sparring all they do is kickboxing anyway so might as well just take kickboxing -- at least then you aren't wasting time in forms work.

And since partner training just turns into social hour because of lack of discipline on people, then there's just no point in worrying about it.

Thanks for the responses, though.

 

[jks9199]

Yeah I thought about this a bit today and went by their school which was closed of course. They only have adult classes 2x a week, which is not really very good. 2x per week doesn't give much instruction.

You don't need to know a form to do applications. What do you think came first, applications or forms? Obviously forms did not come first.

I'm just going to give up on this because it's useless. If schools are so structured that they require forms, and if everybody requires a new set of forms, which is a waste of time, then realistically there is no way to gain decent skill in schools because you are wasting so much time in forms.

There's no point in going to karate schools because in sparring all they do is kickboxing anyway so might as well just take kickboxing -- at least then you aren't wasting time in forms work.

And since partner training just turns into social hour because of lack of discipline on people, then there's just no point in worrying about it.

Thanks for the responses, though.

And I think this post sums up your issue nicely...

It seems like you expect to walk in, wave around that Shotokan black belt and whatever else you've done, and be exposed to "the secrets." You want the instructor to teach the class YOUR way, not his, on YOUR terms, not his. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe it's just the result of the textual format here removing nuance from communication.

It doesn't tend to work that way...

Many of the "secrets" in kata/forms are found by diligently practicing the form, the way it was taught, and applying the principles of the basics of the system to the form. When you've done that form 1000 times, and suddenly the light bulb goes on and you realize that there's something deeper there... When you realize that the initial application taught is only the beginning of what the form has to offer... That's the moment an instructor often waits for to start showing more. Because that's the sign that you're ready to understand more.

I'm not a fan of the "kata collector" approach that I've seen people in many systems use. They chase around, spending a month learning a kata from one person or another and think that the volume of kata they know equals quality. You clearly don't fall into that school, and I give you full credit for that. But I think you might be falling into the same trap in reverse... You're looking for someone to show you things without being willing to learn their ways to get there. A loose analogy might be made by looking at learning to drive stick shift or do advanced driving. Sure, you already know how to steer a car, right? But you don't know about working the clutch or using threshold breaking, or finding the line of a turn... It's the exact same problem that firearms instructors have with people who "already know how to shoot." Most of them have lots of bad habits, and unlearning them of those habits is much harder than teaching someone who's never held a gun before.

One last thought... Perhaps, if you've got a bit of a history of hopping around between schools, some of these instructors are starting you at zero to see if you'll stick long enough to be worth teaching more to...