Can Anyone Identify This Technique For Me?

[Zenjael]

By close I mean punching range, but are you and Zenjael describing the same thing? Guarding the body against body shots by rotating the body and moving the elbows 2 or 3 inches from their resting position in guard such that incoming strikes meet the front of the forearm near the point of the elbow is certainly feasible. I understand this is what you mean, do I understand correctly?

We both are speaking of this.

Dropping the spike of the elbow onto the top of a punching hand is something else. That's what I understand he means - slip offline, replace the target with the slightly raised elbow, and drop it onto the top of the hand in motion to redirect it (although I'm not sure what he's redirecting away from when he's moved offline anyway). All in the time it takes to punch. Sounds like fantasy to me, and with such a short motion path onto the top of the hand there's no power there anyway. Any power from the opponent is negated by aiming for the top of the hand, as the elbow has to come out of the line of the punch to do that.

If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then. What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you. I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary. I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike. In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.

I have only ever retained control of a hand completely with the elbow 3 times. And that was moreso because they opted to try to grapple and push (why one would do that with a failed punch is beyond me, but I suppose we all make mistakes). It's just so much more economic to pull the hand back, and simultaneously strike with the other. No matter how good you are with a spike, or generating energy, or redirecting, there is NOTHING to hold the hand in control with the elbow save whatever energy you have generated to redirect theirs.

Think of it as if the elbow were batting the hand away. If they are a trained fighter, and loose, you may actually end up breaking their fingers, as Josh Oakley pointed out.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but... can you say that again in English? I recognize all the words, but in combination, it makes little sense. The last two sentences I get.

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[K-man]

If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then. What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you. I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary. I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike. In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.

Please, could you rewrite this paragraph in plain English so us non-US guys can comprehend what you are trying to say? :idunno:

 

[Josh Oakley]

Oh good. I am not the only one.

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[K-man]

Oh good. I am not the only one.

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Mate it might be the weather. I'm up at Coral Bay enjoying the best WA has to offer.

 

[K-man]

Just realised, your WA is a few miles away from our WA.

 

[Cyriacus]

If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then. What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you. I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary. I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike. In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.

If they are doing a crushing energy strike its feasible. I more meant that the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from You.
I usually do it with my lead arm, c...

I give up.
:lurk:

 

[Josh Oakley]

Just realised, your WA is a few miles away from our WA.

How long you in town for?

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[Tez3]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but... can you say that again in English? I recognize all the words, but in combination, it makes little sense. The last two sentences I get.

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No I don't understand it either! So that's three of us from different continents!

 

[Gnarlie]

Right, I've been speaking bad English with Germans and Russians all week, so I reckon I can crack this code....

We both are speaking of this.

That's not what you described in your earlier post.

If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then.

What are you talking about? It's either a strike or it isn't. You do like to overcomplicate things for yourself, don't you?

What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you.

Do you even understand what torque is? A turning moment, measured in Newtonmetres. It is in no way applicable to the effect an elbow can have on a travelling fist. A gooseneck wristlock sure, but not here. Did you hear someone else using it and think it sounded cool or what? Stick to plain english words that you know the meaning of.

I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary.

You do actually speak english, yeah? I think I understand what you are trying to say, but what you are describing is basically the same as any boxing block, check or upper body defence. Nothing special, not really any kind of strike, and certainly nothing like your earlier description.

I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike.

I suspect that you may not have read my post properly. One of my criticisms of your described method was that because you move your elbow out of the line of travel of the fist, you fail to capitalise on the motion of the opponent. Do pay attention 007.

In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.

If you meet the strike head on, sure. But you're describing a strike to the top of the hand as it passes. As the punch in motion is carrying mainly forward momentum, a strike to the top or side of it will transfer minimal energy, and most of that transferred will go into redirection, as both masses (your arm and their arm) are roughly the same and carry the same inertia. It's not going to hurt.

For better energy transfer one would need to meet the fist head on, or restrict the motion of the arm struck. Otherwise you get a nice Newton's cradle effect. Your arm stops, with its kinetic energy transferred into kinetic energy in their arm. If both objects are not restricted, ideal (most painful) energy transfer comes from contact between objects of different inertia.

I have only ever retained control of a hand completely with the elbow 3 times. And that was moreso because they opted to try to grapple and push (why one would do that with a failed punch is beyond me, but I suppose we all make mistakes). It's just so much more economic to pull the hand back, and simultaneously strike with the other. No matter how good you are with a spike, or generating energy, or redirecting, there is NOTHING to hold the hand in control with the elbow save whatever energy you have generated to redirect theirs.

Think of it as if the elbow were batting the hand away. If they are a trained fighter, and loose, you may actually end up breaking their fingers, as Josh Oakley pointed out.

Nobody mentioned retaining control of the punch, so I'm not sure why you threw this in. It's not relevant. And you're not breaking anyone's fingers with an elbow to the top of the hand in motion. You would have to meet it head on as Josh described, and even then it's more "here, have an elbow to punch" than a full blown strike.

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[Cyriacus]

You do like to overcomplicate things for yourself, don't you?

Like Ive said before

 

[K-man]

How long you in town for?

I'm not. I didn't realise until after I pushed the button that your WA is Washington State and our WA is Western Australia. I'm holidaying in our WA swimming with whale sharks and manta rays and playing with dolphins. How cool is that?

 

[Zenjael]

That's not what you described in your earlier post.

My apologies. You yourself began the response acknowledging my inadequacy with words. My apologies for not conveying it properly, as I meant it. Others have done so better, what Josh is speaking of, is what I am speaking of.

What are you talking about? It's either a strike or it isn't. You do like to overcomplicate things for yourself, don't you?

I classify things as they are. A strike is a strike, just as a gun is a gun, and a katana and Gim are swords... but they require different technique. Even you must see that the variance in techniques, in relation to how to counter them, is relative to the technique used. I.E., not every trick will work on the same thing, because not all things are different.

May there be mercy on you if you are used to crushing strikes and then go up against someone who has mastered transference type strikes. The kind where they hit you in your stomach, and given your angle, you're liable to feel in your shoulder or back.

I suspect that you may not have read my post properly. One of my criticisms of your described method was that because you move your elbow out of the line of travel of the fist, you fail to capitalise on the motion of the opponent. Do pay attention 007.

then I suggest you look closely also. The amount of motion you actually move your elbow out of the strikes path is neglible. We are literally talking about two points about 6 inches apart, on above their fist's trajectory, and one below, where you move you arm's elbow point from point A, to point B, or point B to point A. It should by maybe a 4th of an inch leave the line of fire, and even when does, it is moving, building momentum so that when it connects, you can move their arm. You do NOT need a lot of torque to redirect a flow of force which is a straight line. Do this: make a spike, with it pointing toward your opponent, but level with the top of your sternum. Now lower your elbow's point in an arc to the bottom of your solar plexus. That's about all you need. For higher aimed strikes, you will need a larger radius to deflect/redirect, but even then, whether carrying the motion downward or upward, it is a perfect setup for a follow up strike with the arm you just used to deflect. It's be a waste not to, I say.

When you move your elbow point inward, and downward, you are setting yourself up almost perfectly, at least with your arms, for a vertical punch executed through the midline, as opposed to over it as many people tend to do. You move your elbow with their fist, not before or after, save to place it to move the fist. I just described in the post you quote that to generate further force you WANT to capitalize on their motion, as you put it.

Not sure why you're at contention. Sorry if I badly worded things, I'll simplify it. Punch comes at say solar plexus, spike elbow, then use momentum to redirect their blow, and strike with same arm using to defend. It is a simple deflection, but its different than using your forearm, or hand, since you are using your elbow. Few boxers do this, unless you're referring to when they tighten their guard, which just looks like they're doing a spike. Might do the same thing, one is an identifiable move though, as opposed to a reaction, or preference of body positioning.

If you are still having trouble with what I wrote, re-read what Josh did, he is talking about the same thing I am.



If you meet the strike head on, sure. But you're describing a strike to the top of the hand as it passes. As the punch in motion is carrying mainly forward momentum, a strike to the top or side of it will transfer minimal energy, and most of that transferred will go into redirection, as both masses (your arm and their arm) are roughly the same and carry the same inertia. It's not going to hurt.

For better energy transfer one would need to meet the fist head on, or restrict the motion of the arm struck. Otherwise you get a nice Newton's cradle effect. Your arm stops, with its kinetic energy transferred into kinetic energy in their arm. If both objects are not restricted, ideal (most painful) energy transfer comes from contact between objects of different inertia.



Nobody mentioned retaining control of the punch, so I'm not sure why you threw this in. It's not relevant. And you're not breaking anyone's fingers with an elbow to the top of the hand in motion. You would have to meet it head on as Josh described, and even then it's more "here, have an elbow to punch" than a full blown strike.

 

[Gnarlie]

My apologies. You yourself began the response acknowledging my inadequacy with words. My apologies for not conveying it properly, as I meant it. Others have done so better, what Josh is speaking of, is what I am speaking of.



I classify things as they are. A strike is a strike, just as a gun is a gun, and a katana and Gim are swords... but they require different technique. Even you must see that the variance in techniques, in relation to how to counter them, is relative to the technique used. I.E., not every trick will work on the same thing, because not all things are different.

May there be mercy on you if you are used to crushing strikes and then go up against someone who has mastered transference type strikes. The kind where they hit you in your stomach, and given your angle, you're liable to feel in your shoulder or back.





then I suggest you look closely also. The amount of motion you actually move your elbow out of the strikes path is neglible. We are literally talking about two points about 6 inches apart, on above their fist's trajectory, and one below, where you move you arm's elbow point from point A, to point B, or point B to point A. It should by maybe a 4th of an inch leave the line of fire, and even when does, it is moving, building momentum so that when it connects, you can move their arm. You do NOT need a lot of torque to redirect a flow of force which is a straight line. Do this: make a spike, with it pointing toward your opponent, but level with the top of your sternum. Now lower your elbow's point in an arc to the bottom of your solar plexus. That's about all you need. For higher aimed strikes, you will need a larger radius to deflect/redirect, but even then, whether carrying the motion downward or upward, it is a perfect setup for a follow up strike with the arm you just used to deflect. It's be a waste not to, I say.

When you move your elbow point inward, and downward, you are setting yourself up almost perfectly, at least with your arms, for a vertical punch executed through the midline, as opposed to over it as many people tend to do. You move your elbow with their fist, not before or after, save to place it to move the fist. I just described in the post you quote that to generate further force you WANT to capitalize on their motion, as you put it.

Not sure why you're at contention. Sorry if I badly worded things, I'll simplify it. Punch comes at say solar plexus, spike elbow, then use momentum to redirect their blow, and strike with same arm using to defend. It is a simple deflection, but its different than using your forearm, or hand, since you are using your elbow. Few boxers do this, unless you're referring to when they tighten their guard, which just looks like they're doing a spike. Might do the same thing, one is an identifiable move though, as opposed to a reaction, or preference of body positioning.

If you are still having trouble with what I wrote, re-read what Josh did, he is talking about the same thing I am.

So what you are now describing is only a deflection. You've changed it. How exactly is that going to break someone's fingers again?

In my view, if deflection is all you are achieving, there are other, higher percentage options to achieve the same result, and which leave less vulnerability. Palm blocks or forearm checks, for example.

A strike is a strike is a strike as far as the techniques that address them go. Are you telling me that you assess a strike in motion, and decide whether it has 'crushing' or 'transference' energy and adjust your response technique based on that assessment? Sounds like BS to me.

If your defensive strategy is based on individual techniques, and the techniques you use aren't universally effective, then you're doomed to failure.

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[Josh Oakley]

No it's not just a deflection... this time he is mostly not wrong. He just sucks at explaining things. Zen, how many times have I told you? Less is more.

So the basic concept is: you can meet the punch at a slight angle, or head on. If it has a slight angle, it will deflect. If the punch hits head on, it has a chance to break a finger... maybe fracture a knuckle. The latter is less likely. The the knuckle has the backup mass of the bones behind it, if the punch is thrown right, so it may not fracture. But it will hurt the guy's fist a lot.

But if you meet one of the fingers with your elbow... big bone meet little bone. If the fist isn't totally clenched, you can break a finger. It's not like it will happen every time, but even if it doesn't, that finger will be in a lot of pain and make it much less fun for the attacker to punch with that hand.

As for the one he's talking about with the elbow moving downward, you can use it on a guy throwing an uppercut if the guy is trying to throw it from just a bit too far away from you. I actually used it on someone who for some reason decided that a rising front instep kick to the face was a good idea. And then felt really bad as they were limping for the rest of the class.

As far as using it for a straight punch, I don't like it, as for the most part, you are redirecting a punch downward and into you. Zen, if it is working for you, likely your partners aren't committing to their strikes enough to where you would see this as a problem... which from what i remember is likely.

As far as using the elbow against a straight punch to the throat or head (Zenjael, this is mostly for you)... don't. It leaves your ribs wide open, and presents a fantastic opportunity for a kicker to get you. In fact, a basic sparring combo is to purposely straight punch at the head, then if they use a traditional high block or their elbow, roundhouse kick to the ribs.

So don't. Just check with your hands, or better yet, slip the punch and drill the guy.

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[Josh Oakley]

And gnarlie.. are you suggesting that blocking with your palm or forearm is going to leave you LESS velnurable than moving your elbow. 2-6"?

Or am I reading you wrong. Do you mean palm blocks for the head level and forearm blocks for the chest level?

Better question: what guard are using? Classical or "boxer's"? Zen from what i understand is talking about from a "boxer" guard. I would for the most part use this concept from a boxer guard, though I keep my elbows closer in than most boxers I have seen do.

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[Gnarlie]

And gnarlie.. are you suggesting that blocking with your palm or forearm is going to leave you LESS velnurable than moving your elbow. 2-6"?

Or am I reading you wrong. Do you mean palm blocks for the head level and forearm blocks for the chest level?

Better question: what guard are using? Classical or "boxer's"? Zen from what i understand is talking about from a "boxer" guard. I would for the most part use this concept from a boxer guard, though I keep my elbows closer in than most boxers I have seen do.

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Thank you Josh. I understand your explanation, but I think Zenjael was originally describing something else. Admittedly it's hard to cut through the dross and squeeze the real sense out of his posts. Zenjael, I wish you could just stay on track and remove the fluff. I'm sure there's some great discussion there somewhere, but it's too labour intensive to make it rewarding at the moment.

I meant palm blocks for head level, forearms (and elbows, but mostly coincidentally) for body. I was responding to Zenjael's suggestion that this elbow thing might work for straights to the face, or should start at the level of the top of the sternum. Risky in my book, lovely open ribs.

I use mostly boxers guard, covering the head, and relying on footwork and forearms combined for the body. Ends up as a sort of high-low hybrid a lot of the time, but the default position is arms up.

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[Zenjael]

No it's not just a deflection... this time he is mostly not wrong. He just sucks at explaining things. Zen, how many times have I told you? Less is more.

I know, I know. I'm trying though.

So the basic concept is: you can meet the punch at a slight angle, or head on. If it has a slight angle, it will deflect. If the punch hits head on, it has a chance to break a finger... maybe fracture a knuckle. The latter is less likely. The the knuckle has the backup mass of the bones behind it, if the punch is thrown right, so it may not fracture. But it will hurt the guy's fist a lot.

But if you meet one of the fingers with your elbow... big bone meet little bone. If the fist isn't totally clenched, you can break a finger. It's not like it will happen every time, but even if it doesn't, that finger will be in a lot of pain and make it much less fun for the attacker to punch with that hand.

As for the one he's talking about with the elbow moving downward, you can use it on a guy throwing an uppercut if the guy is trying to throw it from just a bit too far away from you. I actually used it on someone who for some reason decided that a rising front instep kick to the face was a good idea. And then felt really bad as they were limping for the rest of the class.

I cannot say it better. Thank you for being so concise in explaining it.

As far as using it for a straight punch, I don't like it, as for the most part, you are redirecting a punch downward and into you. Zen, if it is working for you, likely your partners aren't committing to their strikes enough to where you would see this as a problem... which from what i remember is likely.

In some instances this is probably the case. I mostly have small size (smaller surface area) and greater speed over people I go up against. Without that edge though, I concur, it is a strategy which carries high risk, especially when its utilized to try to control the hand, or deflect the punch.

As far as using the elbow against a straight punch to the throat or head (Zenjael, this is mostly for you)... don't. It leaves your ribs wide open, and presents a fantastic opportunity for a kicker to get you. In fact, a basic sparring combo is to purposely straight punch at the head, then if they use a traditional high block or their elbow, roundhouse kick to the ribs.

I have noticed this. I took a... unorthodox route to address that vulnerability. It is difficult to describe without a video clip, but if you look at the one of you tube, you've notice how often I'll do what I call arm rotation. I do it by choice normally, and it's either to generate power, balance, or momentum through my arms. When raising the spike I would, most likely (if not sticking with just Krav Maga) lower the back defending arm toward the hip. It's enough to ward the ribs and still have space to block a strike to the now more vulnerable space you've moved the hand from.

But... I also favor a knee in conjunction with the spike if it's necessary to defend the ribs. I've found one can normally tell when a spike will or will not work; I can think of a number of times I've used it in a match where I never had the opportunity to actually deflect a strike, but it still worked very effectively as a ward when timed properly.

I suppose if I executed the spike, and it was a wasted technique I would try to salvage the wasted flow of momentum and attempt a kick to whatever limb had either been extended and I missed, or was being retracted. Luckily 18 years of WTF TKD snap-kicking also gives speed towards ones legs. Especially when short. Sometimes it's a curse; but when it comes to martial arts, I've noticed they seem tailored to smaller people. Oh Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, I was taught is really only executable by people 175+ pounds, or over 6 ft. I can do the mountain stomps, but it's undeniable that what I do is not the same as what I could if I had another... hmmm, 65 pounds.

So don't. Just check with your hands, or better yet, slip the punch and drill the guy.

I agree. But I feel in a real situation, or serious struggle in a match, that against someone who is of comparable skill or legitimate threat I would not just throw the spike, and reset. I'd throw the spike, and whatever opportunity is presented from its utilization I'll take advantage of, as I see it.

I mean, practice is what is for experimentation. Sure, I agree with everyone that knife disarms are better done with the arms than with your feet (through kicks... movies) but that doesn't change that learning how to do it, and the theory behind it, might not in itself be practical toward other applications in martial arts.

I'd never do a 720 kick in legitimate combat- but I don't mind if the person has given me the degree of control to allow me to execute it on them while we're just sparring. I think any real martial artist has won their fair share or tournaments, and lost. They have reffed, and judged, and have come to realize that those competitions are for the young, and prideful, and that what really matters is how the art can guarantee one's survival while keeping the art itself intact while being used.

That's partially how I see it, hence why I'm willing to experiment with risky, even untrustworthy techniques. I might get hurt for it, but at least I learned my lesson, neh?

And I am speaking of a boxer guard. I favor that when I realize I'm against someone who will allow no room for err. It's... I suppose the best for when preferring attack. Kinda makes sense now that I think about it, even the earliest boxing, Pankreation apparently favored the stance we know as 'fighting'. Mayhap that security it offers is why it appears across so many styles? I delineate though.

To Gnarlie: I'd say it's risky, but while I feel silly writing it, what feels normal to me in executing techniques, is of a speed that is beyond most people. I rely on this, and I suppose it is a crutch, but I feel that perfect technique can offer equatable destructive power as a sloppily thrown but full force thrown technique, and if with sufficient speed most of the time people do the work to themself, and hurt themselves off the deflections. I aim for efficiency as well, and targets which are debillatating.

I work in a donut shop part time, and we get flies, especially as I live in Northern VA and its summer, and I practically live in what's a paved over swamp. For practice I enjoy catching and releasing them, repeating. This isn't to say that I'm some kind of zomg-epi awesome martial artist; lots of people in my family can do it, it's in part why we're so good with firearms, though I suspect traces of redneck in the blood may have added to that. The point is that I rely on that kind of reaction time and speed in sparring, which to a degree cancels out the risk; because I can read people, and react to what they intend to do, oft before they even know they are going to do it, I can also time what is necessary as a counter, as they execute their techniques. I.E, if I use the spike, it will be when appropriate, and in addition, to inflict damage, and set up for a follow up from either arm... usually. Theory. Theory. Theory. It doesn't always work out. We know this about every technique.

Sorry for the fluff, this thread has me particularly excited today. Somebody who normally disagrees with me, actually agreed for once. That's a nice feeling ^_^.

 

[Gnarlie]

I suppose if I executed the spike, and it was a wasted technique I would try to salvage the wasted flow of momentum and attempt a kick to whatever limb had either been extended and I missed, or was being retracted. Luckily 18 years of WTF TKD snap-kicking also gives speed towards ones legs. Especially when short. Sometimes it's a curse; but when it comes to martial arts, I've noticed they seem tailored to smaller people. Oh Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, I was taught is really only executable by people 175+ pounds, or over 6 ft. I can do the mountain stomps, but it's undeniable that what I do is not the same as what I could if I had another... hmmm, 65 pounds.

I mean, practice is what is for experimentation. Sure, I agree with everyone that knife disarms are better done with the arms than with your feet (through kicks... movies) but that doesn't change that learning how to do it, and the theory behind it, might not in itself be practical toward other applications in martial arts.

I'd never do a 720 kick in legitimate combat- but I don't mind if the person has given me the degree of control to allow me to execute it on them while we're just sparring. I think any real martial artist has won their fair share or tournaments, and lost. They have reffed, and judged, and have come to realize that those competitions are for the young, and prideful, and that what really matters is how the art can guarantee one's survival while keeping the art itself intact while being used.

That's partially how I see it, hence why I'm willing to experiment with risky, even untrustworthy techniques. I might get hurt for it, but at least I learned my lesson, neh?

And I am speaking of a boxer guard. I favor that when I realize I'm against someone who will allow no room for err. It's... I suppose the best for when preferring attack. Kinda makes sense now that I think about it, even the earliest boxing, Pankreation apparently favored the stance we know as 'fighting'. Mayhap that security it offers is why it appears across so many styles? I delineate though.

I question the relevance of the above to the discussion. And the incorrect use of 'delineate'. Look it up dude, the word you want is 'digress':

de·lin·e·ate /diˈlinēˌāt/Verb: 1. Describe or portray (something) precisely. 2. Indicate the exact position of (a border or boundary).

To Gnarlie: I'd say it's risky, but while I feel silly writing it, what feels normal to me in executing techniques, is of a speed that is beyond most people. I rely on this, and I suppose it is a crutch, but I feel that perfect technique can offer equatable destructive power as a sloppily thrown but full force thrown technique, and if with sufficient speed most of the time people do the work to themself, and hurt themselves off the deflections. I aim for efficiency as well, and targets which are debillatating.

I work in a donut shop part time, and we get flies, especially as I live in Northern VA and its summer, and I practically live in what's a paved over swamp. For practice I enjoy catching and releasing them, repeating. This isn't to say that I'm some kind of zomg-epi awesome martial artist; lots of people in my family can do it, it's in part why we're so good with firearms, though I suspect traces of redneck in the blood may have added to that. The point is that I rely on that kind of reaction time and speed in sparring, which to a degree cancels out the risk; because I can read people, and react to what they intend to do, oft before they even know they are going to do it, I can also time what is necessary as a counter, as they execute their techniques. I.E, if I use the spike, it will be when appropriate, and in addition, to inflict damage, and set up for a follow up from either arm... usually. Theory. Theory. Theory. It doesn't always work out. We know this about every technique.

Sorry for the fluff, this thread has me particularly excited today. Somebody who normally disagrees with me, actually agreed for once. That's a nice feeling ^_^.

Good god man if you keep blowing your own trumpet like that you'll go blind or develop hairy palms.

If you believe your own propaganda, you're headed for a fall.

PS the fly thing was from the frickin moon - again, where's the relevance to the discussion?

Fluff fluff fluff - your response to me can be stated as follows:

"I am small and fast. I know what people are going to do before they do'. I like to be efficient."

So, I call BS on the mind reading. We can all read people, it's what we do. And the other 2 points weren't relevant to my post either. Fluff!


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[Tez3]

I know, I know. I'm trying though.



I cannot say it better. Thank you for being so concise in explaining it.



In some instances this is probably the case. I mostly have small size (smaller surface area) and greater speed over people I go up against. Without that edge though, I concur, it is a strategy which carries high risk, especially when its utilized to try to control the hand, or deflect the punch.



I have noticed this. I took a... unorthodox route to address that vulnerability. It is difficult to describe without a video clip, but if you look at the one of you tube, you've notice how often I'll do what I call arm rotation. I do it by choice normally, and it's either to generate power, balance, or momentum through my arms. When raising the spike I would, most likely (if not sticking with just Krav Maga) lower the back defending arm toward the hip. It's enough to ward the ribs and still have space to block a strike to the now more vulnerable space you've moved the hand from.

But... I also favor a knee in conjunction with the spike if it's necessary to defend the ribs. I've found one can normally tell when a spike will or will not work; I can think of a number of times I've used it in a match where I never had the opportunity to actually deflect a strike, but it still worked very effectively as a ward when timed properly.

I suppose if I executed the spike, and it was a wasted technique I would try to salvage the wasted flow of momentum and attempt a kick to whatever limb had either been extended and I missed, or was being retracted. Luckily 18 years of WTF TKD snap-kicking also gives speed towards ones legs. Especially when short. Sometimes it's a curse; but when it comes to martial arts, I've noticed they seem tailored to smaller people. Oh Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, I was taught is really only executable by people 175+ pounds, or over 6 ft. I can do the mountain stomps, but it's undeniable that what I do is not the same as what I could if I had another... hmmm, 65 pounds.


How does one retract a limb? Is it like a tortoise going into it's shell?


I agree. But I feel in a real situation, or serious struggle in a match, that against someone who is of comparable skill or legitimate threat I would not just throw the spike, and reset. I'd throw the spike, and whatever opportunity is presented from its utilization I'll take advantage of, as I see it.

I mean, practice is what is for experimentation. Sure, I agree with everyone that knife disarms are better done with the arms than with your feet (through kicks... movies) but that doesn't change that learning how to do it, and the theory behind it, might not in itself be practical toward other applications in martial arts.

I'd never do a 720 kick in legitimate combat- but I don't mind if the person has given me the degree of control to allow me to execute it on them while we're just sparring. I think any real martial artist has won their fair share or tournaments, and lost. They have reffed, and judged, and have come to realize that those competitions are for the young, and prideful, and that what really matters is how the art can guarantee one's survival while keeping the art itself intact while being used.

that's a bit of an insult isn't it? Prideful?
That's partially how I see it, hence why I'm willing to experiment with risky, even untrustworthy techniques. I might get hurt for it, but at least I learned my lesson, neh?

And I am speaking of a boxer guard. I favor that when I realize I'm against someone who will allow no room for err. It's... I suppose the best for when preferring attack. Kinda makes sense now that I think about it, even the earliest boxing, Pankreation apparently favored the stance we know as 'fighting'. Mayhap that security it offers is why it appears across so many styles? I delineate though.

One errs or makes an error. It's Pankration btw.

To Gnarlie: I'd say it's risky, but while I feel silly writing it, what feels normal to me in executing techniques, is of a speed that is beyond most people. I rely on this, and I suppose it is a crutch, but I feel that perfect technique can offer equatable ? destructive power as a sloppily thrown but full force thrown technique, and if with sufficient speed most of the time people do the work to themself, and hurt themselves off the deflections. I aim for efficiency as well, and targets which are debillatating.?

You know that sentence makes little sense?

I work in a donut shop part time, and we get flies, especially as I live in Northern VA and its summer, and I practically live in what's a paved over swamp. For practice I enjoy catching and releasing them, repeating. This isn't to say that I'm some kind of awesome martial artist; lots of people in my family can do it, it's in part why we're so good with firearms, though I suspect traces of redneck in the blood may have added to that. The point is that I rely on that kind of reaction time and speed in sparring, which to a degree cancels out the risk; because I can read people, and react to what they intend to do, oft before they even know they are going to do it, I can also time what is necessary as a counter, as they execute their techniques. I.E, if I use the spike, it will be when appropriate, and in addition, to inflict damage, and set up for a follow up from either arm... usually. Theory. Theory. Theory. It doesn't always work out. We know this about every technique.

Yeah right, if I got a giraffe you'd have the box to keep it in.
Sorry for the fluff, this thread has me particularly excited today. Somebody who normally disagrees with me, actually agreed for once. That's a nice feeling ^_^.

I'd be careful with girlfriends if you get that easily excited....