Buying Dan rank over the Internet

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Yiliquan1,
I could only speak from my pursuits. My certificaction comes from the same lineage, so that helps. If you go outside your system, then you'd be expected to learn their system.

akja -

Your certifications don't cause me much concern, nor does your training. I don't evern really mind (like that matters anyway) that you received a 5th dan from a previous brown belt level. If that was what that instructor felt you rated in his style, after training with him, then fine.

I have to be honest and say that, very flatly, I have a lot of concern about the whole soke thing, especially with organizations that recognize others as soke, and even more so with those who (for a fee) will recognize folks as soke... I have run into far too many people who have fallen into this kind of thing, and every single one has been questionable in their skills and training. Nice people, sure, but the entire situation regarding their titles and grading were suspect.

Your comment about going outside your own system echoes my feelings exactly. If I leave Yiliquan and enter Shinto Muso-ryu Jojutsu, two completely different styles, I should have absolutely no priveliges within SMR because I trained in some style previously. That is patently absurd. Nor should I be eligible for any kind of advanced promotion consideration due to my previous training. I earn exactly what I earn, and nothing more.

I was just curious. I asked the question I asked in the hopes that others who believe such external promotions are valid would give me an idea of how they would view my training time.

Thanks!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I think that buying any rank should be illegal. to me that means if you pay for the test you buy your rank. Why should it cost 100-1000 dollars to test. if thats not buying rank nothing is

Wouldn't you be expected pay if you were joining an organization?

When I went in my pursuits I had well over 15 years in. If you want to limit yourself to training in 1 art for 30 years thats your buisness but I teach teach my students to understand all ranges and as well specialize what works best for them.

I've been in a lot of schools and they don't compare to what I teach! I don't care who thinks what, paper is paper and a fight is a fight. My students are fighters!!! Most of the schools students out there couldn't fight there way out of a kindergarden playground!

One thing is for sure, most everybody downline from Bruce Lee has created their own system and mine is for real!

BRUCE LEE
I
JAMES LEE
I
FELIX MACIAS SR.
I
FELIX MACIAS JR.
I
JAMESKOVACICH
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
BRUCE LEE
I
JAMES LEE
I
GARY DILL
I
CARTER HARGRAVE
I
JAMES KOVACICH

Who cares from where the paper came from. Technically we the same school. And my abilities are there. I've always been a fighter and I teach my students to be fighters. not ignorant wannabes! If I wasn,t a serious martial artist, do you think I would put my real name out there for all the world to see?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Five munites after I had been awarded godan [5th dan], I was standing infront of my sensei with a bucket and spong, and being shown [in detail] the best way to wash his car.
I look back now and understand that the 'test' I had that day was not the kata and kumite I'd just done in the dojo, but my reaction to being asked to do some chores.

I'm glad passed that one.

That would be even more difficult for a person well into their adulthood to accept. Overcoming the natural egotistical response of being asked to do some menial labor is a good test... I would hope I would be able to fight down that monster and behave properly.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

If you live hundreds of miles or more or even thousands from the nearest instructor in your system and you have the oppertunity to join a internet society run by someone you klnow and that knows you why not. If the testing then comes to you in the form of you preforming on viedo or learning from a viedo why not.

You would be correct if you included the caveat of joining a society that teaches what you were studying in the first place. A Taijiquan organization has no business testing (in person or by video) a Shotokan student for his/her black belt...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

No I dont pay organisational fees and I havve studied more than a few systems in my 30+ years in the arts.
I have no problem with a nominal fee for most things: joining a school, monthly fees, and a small fee for testing , I object when the fee becomes the decieding factor in a person being promoted not the knowledge.

 

[A.R.K.]

I have a comment or two....



I think that buying any rank should be illegal. to me that means if you pay for the test you buy your rank. Why should it cost 100-1000 dollars to test. if thats not buying rank nothing is



I can't speak for others, but for my testing I paid $100...
$50 was to pay for the hand made sash (all of which went to pay for the materials; it was made for free). $50 was to pay for the steak dinner my senior treated me to after causing me as much pain as he did during the test...

tshadowchaser, you make a valid point, but as Yiliquan1 points out it is what you are actually paying for. He paid for his sash and honored his instructor wit a good meal. I don't think one could comapre that to say paying $750 for a test, or as you point out even more. I have heard first hand of some folks being asked to dole out thousands. So I agree with your opinion with consideration for fair expenses on the part of the instructor.

I charge $10 for a testing fee in the kyu levels, if the student can afford it. Don't laugh, some can't. The $10 goes towards the cost of a belt and a nice certificate. I wouldn't call that a case of buying rank.

Every BB I have thus far promoted has been at no cost to them. I have shouldered the expense for things like an embroidered BB and a very nice certificate. My thoughts are that they have put in the sweat/blood in mat time. They have honored me with chosing me to teach them so I honor them in return for their hard work.

Yiliquan1,

1) Should I have gone to another school or teacher and asked them to evaluate my skills? Many organizations offer such things, and I am sure I could have found someone willing to do it.

Are you talking about another school of same/similar style or completely different? If it was the same I would say it depends on your goals. You seem to be satisfied with your progress and level despite your absences. If you are satisfied their is probably no reason to go elsewhere.



2) If I had done such a thing, a) how would they evaluate my training having no knowledge of our system's methods and requirements; and b) what grade should they have advanced me to?

I dont see how they would be able to evaluate you fairly. If a different school/organization had access to a pool of qualified instructors of appropriate rank to test you in the system you had received training in then I see that as a viable alternative. But I will put a disclaimer on this opinion; If they are looking to rape you on some high dollar fee I would avoid it. If out of mutual courtesty and respect they offer a reasonable fee to cover the above mentioned expenses [if any] then I see no problem.

Also lets say an instructor charges $25/hour for a private lesson as an example. He is a qualified instructor in your style. I think it would be fair to at least compensate him for his time for the duration of the testing.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
No I dont pay organisational fees and I havve studied more than a few systems in my 30+ years in the arts.
I have no problem with a nominal fee for most things: joining a school, monthly fees, and a small fee for testing , I object when the fee becomes the decieding factor in a person being promoted not the knowledge.

Then I ask how do YOU know what are the promotion takes place.

I have a friend of mine that was trained by a Thai fighter from Thailand and he wants to be cage fighter. He came to me asked me to train him. He said he'll train as often as I'm willing to teach him. That tells me something that I already know. I have it! and it shows.

It dosen't matter what the world thinks. I teach my students to respect the old but embrace the new. I don't care about this or that system. Its all about my system, which is effective, realistic and modern!

 

[James Kovacich]

Zhao Dai Wei,

You are a wise man but i'm confused with you last paragraph.
Of course an instructor must be compensated. Over the years I can't count how many thousands of dollars that I've put out.

I think I'm just misunderstanding you. But I don't think that anybody out there is going to promote or evaluate you after paying him for an hour of training.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Most of my promotion test came with no forwarning and where paid for by my sweat,blood, and determination to survive and do the best I could.
I have said nothing about you, your school or your students. I dont know you except from these few posts. What you teach is what you teach. No one is saying there is any problem with that.
I have simply stated that I do not agree with outragious fees for I feel that they are just a way of buying rank. The thread was on internet testing and I somewhat addressed that also. If you fell that I have attacked you personaly some why sorry about that it was not intended.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Do you think buying martial arts dan rank over the Internet is a legitimate way to earn rank ?


That was the original question lets bring the disscusion back to the topic

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
He paid for his sash and honored his instructor wit a good meal.

Incorrect. If you re-read my post, I pointed out that he took me out for dinner... He paid for his own meal out of his own pocket! And yes, dinner did cost that much... Afterward we sat on the couch and passed out from pain and exhaustion.

Yiliquan1,

1) Should I have gone to another school or teacher and asked them to evaluate my skills? Many organizations offer such things, and I am sure I could have found someone willing to do it.

Are you talking about another school of same/similar style or completely different? If it was the same I would say it depends on your goals. You seem to be satisfied with your progress and level despite your absences. If you are satisfied their is probably no reason to go elsewhere.

When I said "another school," I should have qualified that. Should I have gone to a school outside my own to be ranked by them? What would they rank me in? What would their standards be? What if I wanted advancement in my previous style?

I am quite satisfied with my own situation. I actually resisted the advancement to Senior Level 2, but was eventually told to shut up and deal with it. He is my teacher, so out of respect for him, I did.

2) If I had done such a thing, a) how would they evaluate my training having no knowledge of our system's methods and requirements; and b) what grade should they have advanced me to?

I dont see how they would be able to evaluate you fairly. If a different school/organization had access to a pool of qualified instructors of appropriate rank to test you in the system you had received training in then I see that as a viable alternative. But I will put a disclaimer on this opinion; If they are looking to rape you on some high dollar fee I would avoid it. If out of mutual courtesty and respect they offer a reasonable fee to cover the above mentioned expenses [if any] then I see no problem.

But again, as you stated above, someone from outside my own system would be unable to evaluate me fairly. Simply, a TKD person cannot evaluate a Jujutsu student, and unless the styles are nearly identical (I know of some Shotokan people that later transferred to TKD, and the transition was easy since all the forms were identical, though with slightly different emphasis), style X will never be able to evaluate style Z properly.

If someone is out to make a buck, they will do whatever they want to do so...

Also lets say an instructor charges $25/hour for a private lesson as an example. He is a qualified instructor in your style. I think it would be fair to at least compensate him for his time for the duration of the testing.

I would have no problem with this. In fact, the person that tested me for my black drove 200 miles to do it, stayed with me for the weekend, I took him out for food constantly (my bill), and took care of him as best I could. No worries, there.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Most of my promotion test came with no forwarning and where paid for by my sweat,blood, and determination to survive and do the best I could.
I have said nothing about you, your school or your students. I dont know you except from these few posts. What you teach is what you teach. No one is saying there is any problem with that.
I have simply stated that I do not agree with outragious fees for I feel that they are just a way of buying rank. The thread was on internet testing and I somewhat addressed that also. If you fell that I have attacked you personaly some why sorry about that it was not intended.

Sorry for my rambling, no direct insinuations were meant!

Back to the topic. To me there is a big differance from just buying a piece of paper which I think most people here think is going on. And associating yourself with an organization to put yourself in the position to earn rank that you may already deserve.

I think I just touched the real question. Is the rank worthy of being considered EARNED?

Not in the sense of the old ways. But the old ways are not being respected like they used to.

My main focus is legitimizing my personal system. And I won't be happy until ALL OF MY INSTUCTORS recognizes it!

 

[James Kovacich]

tshadowchaser,

I have much respect for the traditional martial art world. But the world has changed and with change comes adaptation. Those who don't adapt, fall behind. Too many instructors have closed their eyes to the rest of the world and that is more of problem than where the paper comes from.

Personally, Carter Hargrave is more than qualified to give me rank. He was promoted by Gary Dill in Bushido Kempo and JKD more than 10 years ago and he founded his own system American Combat Kempo approximately 10 years ago as well as founding the World kempo Association and World Jeet Kune Do Federation.

I was in contact with him for about 10 months give or take before I joined him. We are for the most part same school and that meant something to me. I teach his Kempo alongside my Kempo Jujitsu and do not teach JKD at all except within my Kempo Jujitsu.

BOTTOM LINE:
My system is for real and thats what makes the paper "EARNED."

 

[A.R.K.]

Akja,

Let me clarify my comment. If the instructor charges x amount for a private lesson and you go to him and request to be tested he is taking time out of his schedule to do so for you. This is assuming he is not your regular instructor with reguarly scheduled testing dates. If he is taking time out for you I think it is fair to at least offer to compensate him for his time.

For example lets say I'm a TKD instructor and I'm say 6th degree. Your a TKD instructor of say 3rd degree. Your instructor has passed on and I'm the only other guy in town in our style. It comes time for you to test for 4th. You come to me and request testing. Its going to take 3 hours [just as an example] to do so. That is 3 hours out of my work week and I have to put food on the table. I think to at least offer to compensate him for his time would be appropriate. If I decline and say no problem then good deal. But it would be respectful in such a circumstance to offer him his due. I would not consider that buying rank rather it is respectful of his time. As I said if the dojo is his only bread and butter the man has to eat

Hope this clarifies a bit. With the GCMAG their is a small fee of a few bucks and it goes to charity. I don't consider that buying rank either. The instructor doesn't get a penny, his time is donated in such cases. My thoughts....

 

[A.R.K.]

Yiiquan1,

My apologies, I did mis-read your post. Either way would be fine. You treating him out of respect or him treating you for the torture



But again, as you stated above, someone from outside my own system would be unable to evaluate me fairly. Simply, a TKD person cannot evaluate a Jujutsu student, and unless the styles are nearly identical (I know of some Shotokan people that later transferred to TKD, and the transition was easy since all the forms were identical, though with slightly different emphasis), style X will never be able to evaluate style Z properly.

We are in agreement. If an organization has a pool of instructors to draw upon and one is same/similar to you then good deal. As you point out TKD to JKD is apples to oranges.

Take care.

 

[RyuShiKan]

OK, well some things that are a little of topic but need some light shed on them.

Originally posted by akja
But the name that signs the certification means a great deal. Lou Angel for example in a year will be celebrating his 50 year anniversry in the martial arts (which I'm invited to, I had to throw that in), and his instructor recoginzes him as 10th Dan, Hanshi of his own system, Tenshi Goju Kai. Lou's instructor is Maestro Peter Urban who is recognized as "The Father of All American Goju Systems." Peter Urban was the student of Gogen Yamaguchi.

Peter Urban did such a great job of representing Goju the his teachers back in Japan asked him to step down.
His book the Karate dojo is chocker block full of fantasy.
He states all kinds of nonsense, not the least of which was Motobu Choki was a giant of 7 feet or some such BS. Motobu was actually about 5 foot 5 and is it painfully obvious to anyone that has seen a photo of him.

Originally posted by akja
Hanshi Lou Angel earned his 3rd Dan in 1963 in Japan directly from Gogen Yamaguchi. Credentials mean a lot when getting certified. Are there any among us that have those kind of credentials? Can anybody say that he can't evaluate me?

Here again, not to take anything from Mr. Angel, a person I have heard nothing but good things about, Yamaguchi Gogen’s training was considered fairly dubious by many of his Goju peers.

Originally posted by akja

It dosen't matter what anybody thinks, I was ready to promote. I was promoted "based on merit" by a student of Bushido Kempos Gary Dill. My Sifus father (Felix Macias Sr.) was the senior student in the Oakland JKD school and Gary Dill was a student of the Oakland JKD school and went on to create Bushido Kempo which is technique based on JKD. Gary Dill is also a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship.

The World Head of Family Sokeship lists my teacher on their website.
They were asked to remove his name on several occasions since he has no connection to them, nor does he care to.
The World Head of Family Sokeship’s rational for listing him was that the were “recognizing” him as a Soke.
Mr. Oyata neither wants nor needs their recognition. He also does not use the term Soke.
Therefore one can only conclude that they use Mr. Oyata’s name (without his permission) for their own benefit and to establish in the minds of people that see it some sort of legitimacy for the World Head of Family Sokeship since Mr. Oyata is somewhat of a respected figure in Okainwan martial arts.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
tshadowchaser,

I have much respect for the traditional martial art world. But the world has changed and with change comes adaptation. Those who don't adapt, fall behind. Too many instructors have closed their eyes to the rest of the world and that is more of problem than where the paper comes from.

There is good adaptation and then there is bad adaptation…..which is better known as perversion. Getting rank over the Internet would be considered a perversion.
There is no substitute for training face to face with a qualified teacher.

 

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan wrote: The World Head of Family Sokeship lists my teacher on their website.
They were asked to remove his name on several occasions since he has no connection to them, nor does he care to.
The World Head of Family Sokeship’s rational for listing him was that the were “recognizing” him as a Soke.
Mr. Oyata neither wants nor needs their recognition. He also does not use the term Soke.
Therefore one can only conclude that they use Mr. Oyata’s name (without his permission) for their own benefit and to establish in the minds of people that see it some sort of legitimacy for the World Head of Family Sokeship...

Outrageous...any organization that uses someone else's reputation to bolster their own alleged legitimacy is blatantly fraudulant...especially if the individual has asked repeatedly to have his name removed from their literature, website, list, etc.

HUGE RED FLAG...BUYER BEWARE...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Mr. Oyata is somewhat of a respected figure in Okainwan martial arts.

Is that like saying a Rolls Royce is somewhat of an expensive car?

--Dave

 

[Shinzu]

i actually was looking for someone to test me for my black belt in shotokan via video. i am a legitimate 1st kyu and wanted to test for dan.

no one was willing to test someone they had never met before, and i respect that. if a shotokan school opens up in the area then i will pursue this option, but i won't hold my breath too long.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kirk
The IKCA is one that a lot of internet friends have commented on what
a great video training course it is. I can't attest to it, since I
haven't studied it, but I've met a lot that have.

A good friend of mine trained in this style as well. We were watching the tapes one day and I commented that I wasn't too keen on the fact that GM Sullivan had his rear foot turned out, whilst in the forward stance, to about 90 degrees.
My buddy laughed and said that he used to copy the stance exactly as GM Sullivan did it, but when he sent his tape for grading, GM LeRoux sent it back telling him to correct the stance. It turns out that Mr. Sullivan stands like that because he broke his ankle years ago. Unfortunately that isn't pointed out to the newbies until after the fact...

Nothing like being there in person.

--Dave

:asian: