Buying Dan rank over the Internet

[chufeng]

Yeah...dude...like I was watching this video of a guy thrashing on a skateboard...and I like knew all of the stuff involved...like the board had wheels and the trucks on the board allowed the wheels to turn and the springiness of the board like made it easy to bounce around and stuff...so, I says, I can do that...so I buy a board and immediately like fall on my ***...

then I thought maybe if someone were to show me HOW to do this, it would be better.

(just an example I borrowed from a friend)...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Nah....I tried skateboarding...no matter who tried to help I still fell on my ***....

(This is back when they were the thinner versions, not the surf boards on wheels ya see today).heh.

 

[RyuShiKan]

I had a BAHNE skateboard when they first came out.........

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I had a BAHNE skateboard when they first came out.........

DOGTOWN?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by jazkiljok
DOGTOWN?

I had a "California Surfer" before that.........one of those soft flexy jobs that was made of Nylon and sagged in the middle.......yuck.

 

[RyuShiKan]

To get back on topic...............

Why do you think is it that some folks sell dan rank over the Internet?

Some people claim they do it to benefit those that have been denied rank for various reasons or so people that don't want to get invloved in the "politics".

I am wondering if these people's motivation is really that selfless or are these people really in it for the bucks........


It would seem to me that if someone is denied rank it is for a reason. Be it lack of skill, lack of time in grade, poor attitude, or any number of reasons.

For people that understand true martial artist rank it not that important.
Do you think the people selling rank on the Internet understand and live in a true martial spirit or are they just cheap hucksters?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
To get back on topic...............

Why do you think is it that some folks sell dan rank over the Internet?

Some people claim they do it to benefit those that have been denied rank for various reasons or so people that don't want to get invloved in the "politics".

I am wondering if these people's motivation is really that selfless or are these people really in it for the bucks........


It would seem to me that if someone is denied rank it is for a reason. Be it lack of skill, lack of time in grade, poor attitude, or any number of reasons.

For people that understand true martial artist rank it not that important.
Do you think the people selling rank on the Internet understand and live in a true martial spirit or are they just cheap hucksters?

THE THREAD IS GREAT BUT THE POLL SUCKED! IT NEEDED A THIRD CHOICE SOMETHING MORE IN BETWEEN. I'LL EXPLAIN:

Theres the question of being able to evaluate students with video tape. Lou Angel addresses this at the beginning of his Tenshi Goju Kai video. He tells you he has over 45 years in the the martial arts and he WILL BE ABLE to tell if your technique is correct.

Video evaluation is OK for the experienced martial artist, it CAN give the "Credibility to ones Training" after many years of training.

The issue of your instructor not willing to teach you anymore or willing to teach you anymore really is a separate issue and so is selling rank. There is a definate problem if your instructor does not want anything to do with you. And selling rank is SELLING RANK, PERIOD!

But the name that signs the certification means a great deal. Lou Angel for example in a year will be celebrating his 50 year anniversry in the martial arts (which I'm invited to, I had to throw that in), and his instructor recoginzes him as 10th Dan, Hanshi of his own system, Tenshi Goju Kai. Lou's instructor is Maestro Peter Urban who is recognized as "The Father of All American Goju Systems." Peter Urban was the student of Gogen Yamaguchi.

Hanshi Lou Angel earned his 3rd Dan in 1963 in Japan directly from Gogen Yamaguchi. Credentials mean a lot when getting certified. Are there any among us that have those kind of credentials? Can anybody say that he can't evaluate me?

There are actually people out there who have over 20 years in the arts but are not black belts. Joe Moreira a recognized 6th Dan in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, a rank almost unheard of in BJJ, brought to San Jose to train in the class I was in, the guy that got Joe to go to Joes first class. This guy that got Joe started was still wearing a blue belt.

Nothing will replace the Instructor, but there are those like me who took over 15 years to get a black belt. I had 4 years of Kajukenbo, a year Hapkido(in between Kajukenbo schools),3 years Bujutsu Taiho, a year of Kobujutsu, 5 years of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu(3 on the mat and 2 on my own) and 8 years Jun Fan Gung-Fu (3 under my Sifu and 5 teaching and training). My training was and is solid.

Am I worthy? I know I am. But I was a product of the '70's, I fell victim to the party life and spent several years in the '80's incarcerated. If you look in my profile, it says I've trained in the martial arts "OFF AND ON" since 1973. There is no reason to lie. My experience is diversified and when I teach I teach my students to be better than myself. Thats what a real instructor does. I also teach my students how to beat any system that I've trained in!

You can train for 15 years in one school but I'd prefer my training over that. Thats just me. I have 3 instructors in 4 arts that I haven't tested under yet but I am learning on a distant format. Do you think I will pass? You bet our life I will! Because I'm a fighter from the heart. I have my students to train with and that helps.

QUICK NOTE: a video test for a pure beginner can be a gimmick to sell a rank. The yin has its yang. I'm adding new systems to what I teach and the Instructors that I have chosen you cannot buy rank from. Inquire for yourself. Lou Angel(Tenshi Goju Kai), George Kirby(Budoshin Jujitsu), George Alexander(Matsumura Shorin Ryu and Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu).

2nd NOTE: Lou Angel will evaluate your Goju test through video, pass or fail. George Kirbys Budoshin Jujitsu test will be done in person although you can send him sporadic video evaluations so that he guide you and prepare you for your in person test. Your first test will be no higher than a brown belt. George Alexanders Shorin Ryu test is in person with very few extreme cercumstances where the video test is permitted. His Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu test is done in person.

3rd NOTE: all three instructors are teaching by video tape although they prefer to teach in person. But this format enables them to build there organizations and allows them to be involved in the martial arts full time. And I am following in their footsteps and I too hope to be able to do martial arts full time!

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Lou Angel addresses this at the beginning of his Tenshi Goju Kai video. He tells you he has over 45 years in the the martial arts and he WILL BE ABLE to tell if your technique is correct.

While I know what it is you are trying to say with this, regardless of the amount of experience a person has, the best evaluation tool is first hand, hands on evaluation.

Video evaluation is OK for the experienced martial artist, it CAN give the "Credibility to ones Training" after many years of training.

Video evaluation would be okay for perhaps learning the sequences of forms, for asking questions based on 2 person technical variants for applications, but not for evaluating a person's skills for promotion. I firmly believe that if a student is being evaluated for advancement, it should be done in person.

What did you mean by "credibility to ones training?" I didn't really understand you there...

The issue of your instructor not willing to teach you anymore or willing to teach you anymore really is a separate issue and so is selling rank. There is a definate problem if your instructor does not want anything to do with you. And selling rank is SELLING RANK, PERIOD!

Amen, brother. Whether you call it "recognizing," "acknowledging," or anything else, it amounts to the same thing - providing rank for money.

But the name that signs the certification means a great deal. Lou Angel for example in a year will be celebrating his 50 year anniversry in the martial arts (which I'm invited to, I had to throw that in), and his instructor recoginzes him as 10th Dan, Hanshi of his own system, Tenshi Goju Kai. Lou's instructor is Maestro Peter Urban who is recognized as "The Father of All American Goju Systems." Peter Urban was the student of Gogen Yamaguchi.

"Hanshi of his own system." Note that it is not soke, a questionable term that is used far too often these days...

Why is Urban called "maestro?" What is the reason behind that variation of the title? Just curious...

My experience is diversified and when I teach I teach my students to be better than myself. Thats what a real instructor does.

And that is hard to od via video or by handing out certificates to people who have never studied the same style as you...

You can train for 15 years in one school but I'd prefer my training over that. Thats just me. I have 3 instructors in 4 arts that I haven't tested under yet but I am learning on a distant format. Do you think I will pass? You bet our life I will! Because I'm a fighter from the heart. I have my students to train with and that helps.

There are two camps to this line of thinking - those who believe a number of years in a single style is better than the same number of years in multiple styles (with varying lengths of time in any given style), and those who believe the exposure to other styles outweighs the lack of consistent training in one discipline.

Personally, I am more of the former than the latter. However, that would only hold true if the style being studied is inclusive of training in multiple ranges and varied techniques (i.e. striking as well as grappling of some sort, like chin na, etc.).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Akja,

That was a well presented post.

I think their is a difference between an instructor not wanting to promote you vs an instructor who is unable to promote you. As an example, a student is just a bad apple and the instructor realizes it. He refuses to teach him/her further until they get their act together, possibly even having them leave the school. That is a very legitimate reason not to promote someone, and something many instructors are forced to contend with.

Now lets look at an instructor that can't promote you. Back in the early 80's a friend of mine was training and competing. And doing very well. He had several trophies and awards during about a 6 year career while moving up the ranks. Just before he was to test for his Shodan his family moved to another state. He was unable to test with his instructor and remained BB recommended. After the move was complete he began the search for a new dojo in the same style. And he actually found several that were the same style/lineage. However, they all told him the same thing...white belt. He had all the proper documentation, his old instructor vouched for him via phone but it boiled down to an issue of money. The new dojo instructors felt they would be out 6 years worth of tuition by honoring him at his level. They said basically after a 'couple' of years they might consider it.

Now here is a man with 6 hard years of training. Having won or done well in multiple competitions. Willing to show a new instructor that he knew all the required materials needed for testing. Willing to compensate the new instructor financially for his time in evaluating his ability AND paying the required testing fee when the next testing date came around. Still a no go. As this was the early 80's it was not as simple as today to video tape a presentation and send it to the old instructor for evaluation. Back then not everyone had a camera or VCR.

We can all say things like 'train for the techniqiues and not worry about belts'. And I agree and teach my students the same. But lets be honest for a moment, after years of hard work it is nice to have the peer recognition. To a different extent from person to person perhaps. I very rarely wear my BB from years ago, I just normally don't feel the need...but it is nice to know I've earned one. Earning a BB is a milestone in a person's life, like a graduation. It is a time to share with family in many places. So the man on principle didn't feel like playing a money game and simply took at pass because at that time there was no reasonable alternative.

However, what if there was an instructor in his style to turn to,perferably in person but if not via a presentation. Someone who was not interested in financial compensation but took enjoyment in teaching and testing and was happy to extend a hand. Lets face it, you can only fake so much, even on tape. You can tell a mechanical, hurredly rehearsed kata or technique as opposed to someone who truly understands body mechanics and economy of motion. And if there is any doubt the instructor always has the option to deny the rank.

Same if an instructor dies or the school closes. I'm sure we could all think of circumstances that are beyond the student's control. Life is like that occasionally. Plus, just because a student tests in a school he/she trains in is no guarentee that they can actually effectively use the training in actual combat. There will always be a risk of what the student actually knows and can apply in an actual incident. No amount of any training, be it dojo or back alley can prepare one completely for a sudden and violent life/death assualt. You can prepare a soldier for battle but will not know until the moment of truth whether the training truly clicked or he/she was merely good at going through the motions.

This is my opinion.

I feel that organizations that 'sell' a rank of any nature for financial gain or to be avoided. I feel that organizations that truly are set up to assist the individual without regard to financial gain are worthwhile if run properly. Nothing is perfect.

Take care.

 

[James Kovacich]

“Credibilty in Ones training”-------For me after all those years I had 2 brown belts and people all around me even at work with their 2 year black belts. Most of my training in my core arts I put in at least 3 years but for differant reasons ended up in other arts before reaching blackbelt.

It dosen't matter what anybody thinks, I was ready to promote. I was promoted "based on merit" by a student of Bushido Kempos Gary Dill. My Sifus father (Felix Macias Sr.) was the senior student in the Oakland JKD school and Gary Dill was a student of the Oakland JKD school and went on to create Bushido Kempo which is technique based on JKD. Gary Dill is also a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship.

His student Carter Hargrave (Gary Dill Certified him in JKD and Bushido Kempo) promoted me gave me his system which he created, American Combat Kempo to use as a base to build off of and to expand on my personal system. Carter Hargrave promoted me to 5th Dan based on my experience and Full JKD Instructor based on my video which was recorded over a couple of years with my Sifu Felix Macias Jr. teaching me. Yes I paid him to test, but it is a one time fee that covers membership and is renewed every year for free. Carter Hargrave is a member of the World Sokeship Council.
http://www.sokecouncil.com/
I am a student and promoter of eclectic and traditional arts.

Hanshi Lou Angel is also a Soke, but I haven't heard him use the term. He is a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship which is headed up by Sanjitsu's founder Frank Sanchez.
http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/

Actually Lou Angel, George Kirby and George Alexander are all members of this Sokeship. At the site Peter Urbin is listed as the Grand patriarch of all American Goju systems. The name Maestro is I think out of respect. He is the man credited with bringing Goju to America. he taught Lou Angel back in the 50's and 60's. He was an instructor of the black dragon Ron Van Cleif.

With Lou Angel, George Kirby and George Alexander I am Learning their systems. That is why I haven't tested under them yet.

I was just stating I would choose my diversification over the straight time in one system as best for me. I've trained long and hard in good systems with good instructors.

 

[A.R.K.]

Akja,

I have a question that comes to mind. You mentioned that you paid a testing fee to Carter Hargrave for your test/membership. You felt confident in his abilities as an instructor and he in you as the 'testee' so to speak for rank advancement. So you were advanced.

I'm not asking what the fee was, nor is it our business. But the question I have is this; Does the amount of the fee change anything to you? If its an instructor you have confidence in, if it fairly judges your ability is there a difference if you are charged $500 or $5? In other words is the $500 more worthy than the $5 if it's the same test? Or if you were tested for free, does that diminish the accomplishment in any way?

It seems that you had confidence in your instructor and he in you. You felt confidence in your ability to complete testing and to accept review/critique/approval. My point would be that its not the $ but your ability that counts and that you had a venue you could utilize to fulfill a goal.

I would appreciate your thoughts. I recognize some of the names you have mentioned and though I don't know them personally I have received positive opinions.

Take care.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Buying rank should be made illegal. Video teaching should only be bought for reference on how to do a few moves that you have allready learned in the dojo.

 

[James Kovacich]

SRyuFighter,
Cigerettes and alcohol should be made illegal too! So!
You really don't know what your talking about when it comes to training! I have more years in the arts than you've been on this earth! How are you going to tell me?


Zhao Dai Wei,
My Sifu who trained me in Jun Fan Gung-Fu does not certify, nor did he ever. My abilities are very good. I spent a few years on the mat in BJJ fixing my weak areas.

I was certified by the World Kempo Association and the World Jeet Kune Do Federation through Carter Hargrave. Thats another area that this thread didn't address yet. What should you do if your instructor does not certify but you want to open up a school and teach.

My art is complete in all ranges of combat. I've learned alot over the years and I teach the way I train and I teach my students to be able to beat any system that I've learned. People think that if you go to an outside source for "paper" then your art must be weak. Thats wrong. I teach what most instructors won't teach until your a brown belt and even more. Its my goal to make someone better than me and not hold back at all. I teach in a progression that allows a student to be able to flow in all ranges effeciently while honing in areas that work best for them.

My abilities are strong and when someone comes at me with some attitude, I say bring it on! If someone says that dosn't work but this will, I say "show me!"

 

[DAC..florida]

If your talking about paying someone who has no idea who you are or what you know, thats wrong!

but if the online organization is ethier going on your current ranking and has proof of it !!!! or the organization is requiring a video tape of your skills that's o.k. in my book. how else would be a member of different organizations from around the world.

 

[Matt Stone]

I trained from 1986 until 1987. Then I joined the Army. Contrary to what many civilians seem to think (based on the popularity of instructors who tout their military experience as some kind of substantiation of their HTH skills), there is no program of official ongoing HTH training of any kind. Some units do it to supplement their physical fitness training, but that is an infrequent occurance at best. I continued to train, off and on as time permitted, while I was in the Army. In 1990 I got out and returned to training. In 1991 I was called back to help out with Desert Storm. When I returned, my school had closed and my teacher had retired from public teaching to attend to things in his personal life.

In a school where the rank structure consisted of:

Novice - No belt
Beginner - 3 grades of white sash/belt
Intermediate - 3 grades of yellow sash/belt
Advanced - 3 grades of blue sash/belt
Senior - 3 grades of black sash/belt
Master - 3 grades of red sash/belt

I had attained, by 1991, the first grade of blue sash. I continued to train on my own, occasionally under the supervision of some of the folks in my city who were senior in grade to me. In 1998 I tested for the first grade of black sash under one of our senior students, with the authorization and blessing of our retired teacher. In 2000, our teacher returned to tutoring us part time, and in 2001 (?) I was awarded the second grade of black sash.

By that time I had 15 years in training in the same system. The only reason I tested in 1998 was to simply have that past me, so it would never again be a concern to me, nor a question to my seniors. I had absolutely no belief that I would be able to test again, nor any concern for it. I was content that I was training, whether it was only over things I had already learned, or on things I could still learn from other seniors (although since in 1995 I reenlisted in the Army, I was geographically separated from all of them).

So I present two questions:

1) Should I have gone to another school or teacher and asked them to evaluate my skills? Many organizations offer such things, and I am sure I could have found someone willing to do it.

2) If I had done such a thing, a) how would they evaluate my training having no knowledge of our system's methods and requirements; and b) what grade should they have advanced me to?

I appreciate any comments.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think that buying any rank should be illegal. to me that means if you pay for the test you buy your rank. Why should it cost 100-1000 dollars to test. if thats not buying rank nothing is

 

[James Kovacich]

Yiliquan1,
I could only speak from my pursuits. My certificaction comes from the same lineage, so that helps. If you go outside your system, then you'd be expected to learn their system.

 

[Matt Stone]

I can't speak for others, but for my testing I paid $100...

$50 was to pay for the hand made sash (all of which went to pay for the materials; it was made for free). $50 was to pay for the steak dinner my senior treated me to after causing me as much pain as he did during the test...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Mike Clarke]

Is rank just about the physical ability to remember some techniques then? If so then maybe you could see someone on a video and come to a conclussion? But what about their character?

I would never award dan rank to someone for their physical ablity alone. Important though that is, it is not the be all and end all of progress. I have a student at the moment who could well have recieved his shodan [1st dan] last year, but [in my eyes] he has some way to go yet in his battle with his ego, and so, until he makes progress there he'll remain a 1st kyu.

Selling rank is for idiots! Buying rank, is for BIGGER idiots!!

To put a monitary value on any rank devalues it, and no self respecting martial artist would want something so cheap attached to their name [would they?].

Five munites after I had been awarded godan [5th dan], I was standing infront of my sensei with a bucket and spong, and being shown [in detail] the best way to wash his car.
I look back now and understand that the 'test' I had that day was not the kata and kumite I'd just done in the dojo, but my reaction to being asked to do some chores.

I'm glad passed that one.

I can understand people new to martial arts wanting rank, but if you ask anyone who has been training seriously for ten years or more, you'll find very few that put 'that' much store by the rank they hold.

Mike.

 

[tshadowchaser]

now maybe i should qualify my statwment. I have no problem with the cost and reason given by Yiliquan1 .
The cost of covering material for a sash,New uniform, and the cost of haveing a certificate printed up are all fine and above board ( imho) as is the cost of a dinner .
I object to the outragios prices paid for getting a test date takeing the test and recieving a pieace of paper that costs Hundreds of dollars and was obviously mass produced. Some coast can be considered ligit. but many test s are way over priced.
If you live hundreds of miles or more or even thousands from the nearest instructor in your system and you have the oppertunity to join a internet society run by someone you klnow and that knows you why not. If the testing then comes to you in the form of you preforming on viedo or learning from a viedo why not.