Helping someone of higher rank/experience

[Pale Rider]

The only way that I see that someone can correct me in a technique is if they are familiar with the technique that I am performing. How can one that isn't even in Martial Arts correct someone that is? Now I beleive that I am doing a technique and a gup questioned me politely and respectfully about a technique then I will do my best to either answer the question or correct the technique. I have listed to the advice of Gups because there are times when they see something that I didn't catch. Taken this under advisement, there are times when I may question a Higher Ranking Dan about a technique that they are performing. I have seen some Dans that are higher then men in some styles/organizations that shouldn't be wearing that rank, but I still treat them with respect as I would want to be treated.

So I believe that if anyone questions a technique performed by someone who is higher in rank, then it must be at least with respect, and honor.

 

[Kamaria Annina]

In our studio, our Master likes to have us train with different ranks, for variety. I don't mind helping higher ranks, if they ask or I see something that could be beneficial to them.

 

[Tae Kwon Doughboy]

I work out with one of my friends at work who is a BB. He often asks me to watch what he is doing and tell him my observation. I wouldn't even consider giving unsolisited advice because I am an orange belt and have nothing to offer him at his level.

I did offer suggestions on breathing, relaxation and energy management (from Tai Chi) which were well received. He would run out of steam way before I did. We both see the difference.

There is a BB that is new to our school that was complaining before class how his finger was hurting because a white belt kept kicking it while attempting break a board. I asked him he made them do pushups. He said no. I asked if they knew they were kicking his finger. He said no. He didn't want to lord his BB over them. I told him that I could understand but that if they don't know they won't stop. I asked him to let me know if I ever did. He took that well.

 

[RCastillo]

They didn't like it. They knew I was right, but I know better now than to help those that want no help. :asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

The other side of this is that as some one with a long history of martial arts behind me, in many arts, I have a hard time when I start a new art and some guy with a year total experience starts to impart his wisdom. Its not there fault and I am sure they are just trying to be helpful but it does bug me a bit.

Tony

Tony

I understand what you are saying and this is kind of common, especially if you jump around to several different arts. Take grappling or locking techniques. While one system might do a technique a particular way another system might not emphasize those fine points and just be concerned with does it hurt the person and is it effective. So a beginner belt might see you do something and think he as your senior (in the school) needs to correct you on that technique since you aren't doing it the schools way.

A friend of mine who is a long time martial artist and my senior in our dojo took Kenpo off and on for several years at a school. He would have to sit and listen to senior belts in Kenpo (BBs) lecture him on how kenpo is supreme to everything (yada yada yada) while he had possibly twice as much time in the martial arts as they did, and he had studied for various lengths of time several different systems. But he would do it because not to would cause discension in the school.

I use to run into the same problem as well when I visited different schools. However I believe that in time people will see that you have experience beyond them and accept your advice based on your experience and not your belt's color.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

I come at this from several different angles.

I have been brought up not to question the senior belts or to correct them especially in a class. However in my instructor's dojo which was a private dojo we did just that and he didn't mind, he encouraged our questions. (There wasn't anything that we could correct him on. ) However between the other students (BB's) who were training there advice was freely given when sparring. (We never had to many observations about forms though to correct each other. It just wasn't that type of training.)

However when out in public at other people's schools/classes we didn't break rank so to speak. We didn't correct instructors on katas etc. etc. since they might have been taught differently than us. This attitude helped when I went out in had to seek other schools due to relocating or something.

I help teach (as an assistant) at Hock's seminars (I walk the floor and help the participants with the techniques) and that is a totally different ballgame. There I generally ask if I can suggest something to the people (say two individuals are working on a technique) and then if they want advice/instruction great if not then I don't help. And I won't help or go back to them until they seek me out. Generally I do ask or I try to. Now I have no idea anyone's rank there and that shouldn't be an issue. But some people don't want any help what so ever, and that's cool as well.

And for myself generally if I'm screwing up than I want to know from whomever can give me insight on how to get better.

Mark

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Interesting thread. Let me offer up some related issues that border on this topic...all of which have to do with student/instructor relations.

There are schools where the "no questions asked, just do as I say" philosopy is paramount. There are others where intellectual curiosity is encouraged. Is there a balance to be struck between the two?

In my school a number of arts are taught, and we run towards the more relaxed atmosphere in each of them. Occasionally, though, we get the student with previous (and invariably limited) experience who attempts to teach his more senior partner techniques that are inappropriate or dangerous. This is at best a distraction from the instructor's goal, at worst a safety infraction.

I had a young man studying Tae Kwon Do with me who was taking Muay Thai at a school in his hometown when he'd go home for the summer. He loved Muay Thai with a passion, and kept adopting the Muay Thai stance instead of the TKD fighting stance I preferred him to take. I asked him to switch his stance, and he later complained, "I thought we were an eclectic school!" I reminded him that blending was fine at the proper time...but at the time we were doing pure TKD. There was some friction for a time with that...but he got his TKD black belt and now he is teaching Muay Thai for me.

Interestingly enough, he has a hard time teaching some of the TKD people in his class...they keep falling back on their old ways. The circle turns, and he's facing the challenge I faced with him.

So some rules of decorum may need to be enforced, or boundaries of politeness outlined.

I observe there are "questions" posed to instructors, and then there are "challenges" phrased as questions. Some of us have seen the latter...a cocky student whose estimation of his own skills is rather inflated, and he starts sniping away at the instructor in an attempt to damage the instructor's credibility and inflate his own in the eyes of his classmates. I get this most often from hyper-intellectual teenagers with social skills problems and...forgive me, but its true...law students.

How the instructor handles this is a reflection of his self-confidence as a martial artist. Very often this challenge goes along with other behaviors that many of us would find unacceptable: Fighting or countering his partner's techniques when they're trying to learn a movement, saying "Oh, yeah, but if you did that I'd just counter with THIS." Its difficult to handle boorish behavior like this. Thankfully people like this are rare.

All this aside, I encourage creativity and debate. My senior student in Hapkido goes to Small Circle seminars and comes back with new techniques...some of which I don't care for. I permit him to demonstrate them, debate their merits and contrast them with my methods. Sometimes he discards them...and sometimes I come to realize he's come back with a really superb move.

Personally, I'd rather not hide behind my rank and demand unconditional acceptance of everything I say or do...even if it is an error of mine. It would stifle the student, make me an insecure martinet, and make my school a very dry and infertile place.


Regards,


Steve

 

[MichiganTKD]

Hopefully, a black belt's ego is not so big that he cannot bring himself to ask a lower ranking student's advice. True, no black belt knows everything. And there is nothing wrong with a 4th Dan asking a 1st or 2nd Dan for comments about his technique. Also, there is nothing wrong with a Master Instructor asking a lower belt for help with something outside of class. Our Grandmaster has asked for advice on non-Tae Kwon Do matters many times, because he admits freely that, especially concerning how we do things in America, sometimes he doesn't know the best way.
However, it is my job as Instructor to teach my students the best way I know how. Once they make black belt, although they are still and always will be my students, they are responsible for their own technique. Even our Grandmaster has adopted an almost hands off approach to his students at this point. If they choose to listen or not to listen to him, that is their choice.
Again, lower belts do not offer unsolicited advice. Not because it is ego trip, but because higher black belts are responsible for themselves for better or worse.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hopefully, a black belt's ego is not so big that he cannot bring himself to ask a lower ranking student's advice. True, no black belt knows everything. And there is nothing wrong with a 4th Dan asking a 1st or 2nd Dan for comments about his technique. Also, there is nothing wrong with a Master Instructor asking a lower belt for help with something outside of class. Our Grandmaster has asked for advice on non-Tae Kwon Do matters many times, because he admits freely that, especially concerning how we do things in America, sometimes he doesn't know the best way.
However, it is my job as Instructor to teach my students the best way I know how. Once they make black belt, although they are still and always will be my students, they are responsible for their own technique. Even our Grandmaster has adopted an almost hands off approach to his students at this point. If they choose to listen or not to listen to him, that is their choice.
Again, lower belts do not offer unsolicited advice. Not because it is ego trip, but because higher black belts are responsible for themselves for better or worse.

Mich,
Yes, at a traditional school, that may be true. Again, since we all train in different arts, the culture will be different from school to school. And, since the school is the reflection of the master...

I hope you read HardheadJarhead's post since he owns a tkd school (along with a pot pourri of other good martial arts) and that is comparing apples to apples. Also, to invoke your traditional viewpoint, he is a Sambomnim and, therefore, worth listening to. [You could look it up]

Point is, and I've also said this, it's all how you perceive yourself. If you're secure in your training, if you understand where some of the (perceived) criticism is coming from, it shouldn't bother you at all. It's an opportunity to teach and sometimes to learn. :asian: KT

 

[Ping898]

I have no problems offering my opinion or thoughts to anyone. But at least in the context of dealing with a higher belt or even equal rank, I am more likely to ask why are they doing something a certain way if it is different than the way I know. I figure there is a good chance they know something I don't know and that they are not necessarily doing it wrong, though this only applies to techniques and kata. If someone asks for my input I will also give it but in the context of this is how I thought it is was to be done. I have learned through teaching that you can teach 5 people the same kata the exact same way and do it over and over and over all looking the same as you and when they go off on their own to practise you end up with 5 different variations. I figure I am no different than anyone else and thus apply my own variations to what I am taught something without realizing it sometimes.

In sparring I have no problems telling someone if they keep dropping their guard when they throw a kick or something like that.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Ping said: "In sparring I have no problems telling someone if they keep dropping their guard when they throw a kick or something like that."

No, I'm not following you around (lol!) Seems like we respond to the same threads.

I agree with you on the above. That's important feedback that anyone should be happy to be given. Often one drops one's hands and isn't aware of it -- until you take one to the face. KT

 

[pete]

Ping said: "In sparring I have no problems telling someone if they keep dropping their guard when they throw a kick or something like that."

better to show than tell...

 

[mj-hi-yah]

better to show than tell...

OK you, as long as it's not with a punch in the stomach during an in the ring celebration....

 

[kenpo tiger]

MJ, Now who would do something like that??!! Love ya! KT

 

[Sarah]

I don’t feel like I am in the position to give advice to seniors seeing that I am only a Yellow Belt Green Tip.

I have had some seniors ask me to watch what they are doing and tell them if they are dropping the Knee on the kick etc etc, which is fine.

If I was sparring a senior and they were dropping there guard, a tap in the head is all that needs to be done, that say's it all. Not that I have ever been in that situation.

I do give a lot of advice to my own class, as I seem to be able to take in technical information well. I think it may be different if I was a Blue Belt and saw a Red Belt doing something wrong, I would feel ok about mentioning something.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Last night in class, four of us were working techniques together - three brown belts and a black belt. There was, as always, some - er - divergent opinions as to how the footwork should be done in one particular tech. We worked it on each other trying both ways, all the time discussing the pros and cons, and finally called the Master over. Turns out, the way the tech is written is the way three of us were doing it, and the other way was acceptable as an adaptation in a given situation. The black belt never felt that we were questioning him or attacking him or being disrespectful of his rank. Rather, there was give and take, and that's how one learns. No room for ego - and no call for it. :asian: KT

 

[Pittbull]

I only give advice to senior students when I see something that is wrong and I'm sure it's wrong.Also for instance I'm in a Kenpo school but we do alot of grappling too and I'm ask by the senior instuctor often if something is right even though I hold no rank in a grappling style and his reason for this is I do alot of reading about grappling styles and also practice some of the things I read.

 

[karatekid1975]

At my first school, I would help higher ranks all the time. Just before I joined, my old association changed the one steps. When I started, I took to martial arts like a duck to water, and I learned very quickly. I learned some one-steps well past my rank (a form or two also ). A couple of black belts were getting ready to test and they still didn't have all the new one steps down. They would ask me to help. I didn't mind.

In my TKD school, if we catch something, we politely say something. Depending on who is the higher rank, we joke about the mistake LOL. No one ever has a problem with it (that I know of, that is). Same thing happened at this school, too. They changed the curriculum, and I am picking it up quickly, so a lot of high ranks ask me for help.

The only time I ever had a problem with it is when I visited my TSD school in June. I'm allowed to train there when ever I visit still (for free ). Anyway, I wear my old TSD blue belt when I train there. I was talking to one kid that said I should wear my TKD belt. I said no, cause I didn't earn it there. Then when we were practicing forms, this little punk (I'm not saying that to be mean, he really was) was trying to correct me. I wanted to say that, "YOU are doing that wrong, not me, and I've been training a hell of a lot longer. Buzz off."

If it was a valid correction and he was polite about it, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But when a lower rank tries to "correct" someone with an attitude, it's won't go over well. Other than that, I don't mind getting feedback from lower ranks. They might catch something that I didn't notice before.

 

[Pale Rider]

I remember working out with a different Tang Soo Do school's students. We met at one of their parent's house to have a "semi-class" as their main school had been shut down. A 2nd gup invited me knowing that I was a Dan in TSD, just not in his organization. I went along with my girlfriend's daughter who was also a 2nd gup in that same organization as the young man who invited me.

After we got there and into our dobahks, he politely asked me since I was the highest one ranking one there if I wanted to conduct class. I told him that I was honored that even tho I wasn't in his organization that he respected me enough to ask. I insisted that since they were both 2nd Gup's and I was a "visiting" Dan, that we just go "round-robin" and each of us contributed and lead class. We would learn from each other. I believe that went over well, and not any of us had a problem with that. In fact I learned something different from that young man.

In fact later on during class, one of that particular school's Master came in. I didn't know who he was at first until one of the 2nd gups told me. I quickly bowed to him and asked if he wanted to take over class since he was the highest ranking there. He bowed back and politely told me to continue what I was doing. That all he would do is offer assistance - I thanked him and we continued.

No matter what there were respect all around. I liked that and enjoyed that class.

 

[pete]

There was, as always, some - er - divergent opinions as to how the footwork should be done in one particular tech... Turns out, the way the tech is written is the way three of us were doing it, and the other way was acceptable as an adaptation in a given situation.

or vice-verse! how a tech is written is dependant on who has the pen, and
when its written.

variations in footwork, stances, targets, etc often are made to adjust for the body type, agility, and intent of the defender in relation to that of the attacker. in the case of KT's example, and since i was there i can comment, both methods were in keeping with principles and equally effective.

sometimes a decision has to be made relative to power vs speed vs stability which can lead to differences even amoung ma-ist learning from the same instructor. the beauty of an art built on principles is in the individual's adaptation.

pete.