As a high school student, I know just as well as the next guy how many fights there are in school, and I know the policies regarding them. Anyone in a fight, including the one who was being attacked, gets suspended, even if they simply block to defend themselves. So my question as a martial artist is, how can this policy possibly be effective? Its either get beaten up or get suspended. What are we supposed to do, tell bullies or aggressive instigators to stop beating us up so we can go get a security guard to stop them? Thats never going to work. And as someone who knows how to fight, I think we should have the right to defend ourselves. I'm seriously thinking about talking to my principle about these policies and then maybe talking to the county board of education. What do you guys think?
Bullies in School
- Thread starter Hajime
- Start date
I agree I think the policies are ridiculous but they are probably set like that so people don't consider fighting. I'm sure if you honestly only defnd yourself in a fight to protec your life, the board of education would look the other way. If they don't you can always sue the board of education. In high school unless you look for trouble or when a fight comes to you and you take it, you won't be troubled.
The "no tolerance" policy is designed to ensure that fighting is decreased. You've pointed out some of the disadvantages of the policy for the "victim." I started training in high school & hung out with guys I trained with. We were still geeks & nerds even though we trained & got picked on by the jocks on occasion
I remember my best friend, who was also a BB during our senior year, had a unique perspective on fighting outside the dojang. He'd say, "why would I get into a fight with [whoever] when I pay a guy to beat on me on a regular basis? Heck, what can [whoever] do to me that hasn't happened already? I know what it's like to be kicked & punched in the face. It hasn't done irepairable harm. And the guys who do to me in class do it better than guys at school."
While there are limits to his thought process here, it has a quicky bit of wisdom to it. If someone has trained awhile, they've learned that a punch or a kick won't kill them. The FEAR of being in a fight is often worse than the real thing for someone who has experienced a bit in the dojang. The need to prove oneself outside of class diminished with time as well.
My advice, if you can walk away. It's not worth the penalty cuz the jerk calls you a name. If he swings on you & you can confidently make him miss, do so. If you choose to actively defend yourself....you already know the consequences. The bullies know them too. Don't let them goat you into it cuz he wants a day off of school.
It depends.
The attack does not come out of the blue. It has a history. If you are on your toes documenting it, with complaints to teachers principals and so on, should you have to defend yourself you can always point at the record, that you had not been protected as the no fight policy implies.
And depending on where you live, the guys in school can do a lot worse then the Master in the Dojang...one of our Students was one time cornered by 3 thugs. he did get his licks in, but he also took some pretty hard licks, swollen face, broken nose I suspect....
While some of the old Master say they didn't get that old by fighting every Tom Dick and Harry that passed through, there is a time to walk and there is a time to hit, and hit hard.
here, a little blast from a little while ago:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63004
The attack does not come out of the blue. It has a history. If you are on your toes documenting it, with complaints to teachers principals and so on, should you have to defend yourself you can always point at the record, that you had not been protected as the no fight policy implies.
And depending on where you live, the guys in school can do a lot worse then the Master in the Dojang...one of our Students was one time cornered by 3 thugs. he did get his licks in, but he also took some pretty hard licks, swollen face, broken nose I suspect....
While some of the old Master say they didn't get that old by fighting every Tom Dick and Harry that passed through, there is a time to walk and there is a time to hit, and hit hard.
here, a little blast from a little while ago:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63004
Becoming involved in local politics and bring the whole no tolerance thing before the school board is a grand idea. Present the facts and present how unsafe it could be for a person to just stand there and get beat on. Defending oneself should be a basic principle of life.
Letters to the editor of the local paper, town meetings, school board meetings, etc are good placers to voice your thoughts. Get others involved especially if you can parents involved. Those that think their children should be able to defend themselves or those that have had students punished for defending themselves will be a good starting point to help you
Letters to the editor of the local paper, town meetings, school board meetings, etc are good placers to voice your thoughts. Get others involved especially if you can parents involved. Those that think their children should be able to defend themselves or those that have had students punished for defending themselves will be a good starting point to help you
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So long as zero tolerance is tolerated, we will continue to have this problem.
- Thread Starter
- #8
I agree with some of you that there definitely is a time to walk away. There has to be a lot of self control in those kinds of situations where its just some kid badmouthing you. You also can't side kick with breaking power if they shove you or something. But in the situation where its some kid coming at you really trying to mess you up, defense definitely has to be allowed. I think I will talk to my principle. what do you guys think is the best way to go about it.
Zero tolerance policies take the work out of finding the responisbile party, you just take the shotgun approach and suspend or fire everyone involved. I told my kids when they were in school that they were allowed and expected to defend themselves if necessary and I would deal with the school, provided it was actually self defense. I think the first time someone decides to sue the schoolboard for expecting their kid to be a victim instead of fighting back, things will change.
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
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In my opinion, if you truly need to defend yourself, worry about the consequences from the schoolboard later. While you don't agree with the policy, what is it going to matte what you agree with if you're laid up in a hospital bed somewhere because you didn't want to be suspended for defending yourself, and then you end up suspended anyway?
If you know there are consequences to defending yourself in a fight, and no matter if you block the punches, side-step the attacks, or simply let the guy beat on you, you're going to reap those consequences, then you may as well defend yourself and prevent yourself, and your attacker, from being hurt seriously.
Basically, if you're already in the situation where you need to defend yourself, you've already lost, at least as far as the school board goes. If there is no way to talk yourself out of the fight, then defend yourself the best that you can, and, if possible, try to not hurt the bully as well, so that you can say with all confidence that you did not want to fight, but you were keeping the bully from doing harm to you and others.
But, unless you are attacked without provocation and blindsided or jumped, there is always a way to resove the issue without resorting to fighting or defending yourself.
If you know there are consequences to defending yourself in a fight, and no matter if you block the punches, side-step the attacks, or simply let the guy beat on you, you're going to reap those consequences, then you may as well defend yourself and prevent yourself, and your attacker, from being hurt seriously.
Basically, if you're already in the situation where you need to defend yourself, you've already lost, at least as far as the school board goes. If there is no way to talk yourself out of the fight, then defend yourself the best that you can, and, if possible, try to not hurt the bully as well, so that you can say with all confidence that you did not want to fight, but you were keeping the bully from doing harm to you and others.
But, unless you are attacked without provocation and blindsided or jumped, there is always a way to resove the issue without resorting to fighting or defending yourself.
Grandson was recently suspended for being involved in a fight, and all he did was push the kid off of him...When my step daughter from my first marrage was being bullied the school admins did NOTHING to prevent it..So I spent a weekend showing her some " tricks ", and she took the suspension without a problem..After getting thumped once the bullying STOPPED...Don't raise your child up to be a punching bag..
igillman
Purple Belt
Most bullies pick on people who do not fight back because they know they are easy targets, they think they look big because nobody will stand up to them. I had 3 people try to bully me at school and 2 of them ended up on the floor with lots of their blood all over them. Yes I got in trouble for it but so did they (the teachers know who the troublemakers are) and it was worth it because they did not bother me at all after that. Just for the record, the third one didn't need to get knocked down after I pinned him up to the bathroom wall and told him that if he ever tried anything like that again I would flush him down the toilet.
My rule for bullies was quite simple. Try and stay out of trouble but if things get too bad you have one shot to deal with them so make it a good one. You have to finish it before a teacher does, then they leave you alone and go after other people who are less likely to pull them apart.
My rule for bullies was quite simple. Try and stay out of trouble but if things get too bad you have one shot to deal with them so make it a good one. You have to finish it before a teacher does, then they leave you alone and go after other people who are less likely to pull them apart.
igillman
Purple Belt
Additional...
Do not boast about it afterwards, that just upsets them and gets them back on your tail again. You sort of end up with an uneasy truce where if you don't say that you nailed them to the wall then they won't come after you again.
Do not boast about it afterwards, that just upsets them and gets them back on your tail again. You sort of end up with an uneasy truce where if you don't say that you nailed them to the wall then they won't come after you again.
Well said...
Em MacIntosh
3rd Black Belt
Bullies harass, defame and assault. I would have them charged for these crimes or sue the bully's parents. In the mean time I would encourage my child to defend themselves, I will deal with the school's administration. I wouldn't send my child to school without a tape recorder to gather evidence to rub in the admin's face.
Absolutely.
I've told both of my sons that if they need to legitamately defend themselves, do so. Do it well, and don't go beyond the bounds of self defense; the rule of SD is to fight off the attacker and make an exit, and if that isn't possible, end the fight without doing permanent injury or using lethal force if at all possible. If suspended, they will not be in any hot water with me. To the contrary. I do not expect my kids to be punching bags.
God help them if they start the fight though.
Daniel
I've always said the same. Defend yourself, then have the authorities call me at work. I'll come down there and raise the roof.
Suspending both parties drives me crazy. It happened to me once in 9th grade when I defended myself against a bully. My mother came in and the principal rescinded that order...in self-defense.
Suspending both parties drives me crazy. It happened to me once in 9th grade when I defended myself against a bully. My mother came in and the principal rescinded that order...in self-defense.
Nomad
Master Black Belt
Zero Tolerance policies remove the need for the administration to think and investigate, and simply hits all parties with a blanket punishment. I've heard of kids being suspended for bringing a butter-knife to school with their lunch (a weapon as defined by ZT).
I am completely on board with the other posters in saying that my kids have my full backing to defend themselves against bullies, and that I will be happy to have a long talk with the school administrators afterwards, with my lawyer present if necessary.
On another note, I've also been in classes where one of my seniors taught a number of great self-defense tricks that look like you aren't doing anything to the aggressor; instead he just falls down and hurts himself (things like accidentally running into your elbows)... too bad :lol:
Of course, I'd never suggest that my kids should do something like that, and would definitely not have shown them how these techniques work in detail...
I am completely on board with the other posters in saying that my kids have my full backing to defend themselves against bullies, and that I will be happy to have a long talk with the school administrators afterwards, with my lawyer present if necessary.
On another note, I've also been in classes where one of my seniors taught a number of great self-defense tricks that look like you aren't doing anything to the aggressor; instead he just falls down and hurts himself (things like accidentally running into your elbows)... too bad :lol:
Of course, I'd never suggest that my kids should do something like that, and would definitely not have shown them how these techniques work in detail...
the principal in SD? rofl
But that is about my point of view.
I had a Mom tell me - she and both her daughters are TKD students - that as long as it's verbal the girls are to walk away...but once it gets to be physical they have to put their training to work. Especially since the school knows the offender in question. (not to mention there would be about a half dozen or more Black Belts show up as character witness if any problems arose...
)Or as I like to put it: That would be a suspension we'd celebrate!
oh, I forgot! I am also not that meek. If you know you are gonna be in trouble, make the crime fit the punishment: That Bully better think twice about crossing you again.
