Zero tolerance in schools-good or bad?

[Lisa]

Lisa, Your daughter is to be applauded. I am sure you are already very proud of her. As the father of two girls, I am proud of her myself.

Respects,

Frank

Thank you, Frank. Her dad and I are very proud of her.

It will be a difficult thing to explain to her how doing the right thing results in a suspension. It will be a good lesson to learn that although there is policy to protect everyone and it has to be abided by, sometimes the policy hurts those with good intentions. I will also encourage her to do exactly the same thing next time. Don't go looking for trouble but make sure you stick up for what you believe in and help your friends out when they are in trouble.

Her words were "I just couldn't sit there until an adult came along and watch something so wrong continue."

 

[Makalakumu]

Thank you, Frank. Her dad and I are very proud of her.

It will be a difficult thing to explain to her how doing the right thing results in a suspension. It will be a good lesson to learn that although there is policy to protect everyone and it has to be abided by, sometimes the policy hurts those with good intentions. I will also encourage her to do exactly the same thing next time. Don't go looking for trouble but make sure you stick up for what you believe in and help your friends out when they are in trouble.

Her words were "I just couldn't sit there until an adult came along and watch something so wrong continue."

I was involved in a similar situation with a similar outcome in High School. My dad told me to Follow My Heart and Speak Truth to Power. I thought this was good advice and I've been following it ever since.

And my kids will hear the same advice.

 

[Kacey]

One of my former TKD students was being taunted by a bully - the bully called him names, called his younger brother names, called his mother names... anything he could think of to make my student take the first swing (and therefore get in the most trouble). My student (who had a very short fuse at the time) stood there and took it... until the bully tried to punch him. My student stood there and blocked for several minutes until a teacher showed up, and never once punched back, or kicked... although the blocks were hard enough to cause bruises. They were both suspended for 3 days for being in a fight. However, I felt my student performed correctly, and bought him lunch; his mother bought him a pair of boots he'd been coveting.

The thing to remember, as you talk about zero tolerance being a new thing, is that this happened nearly 15 years ago. It is not new - it is just that people are just now becoming aware of it.

Do I agree with a zero-violence policy? Well... define violence. We had a behavior modification program in place at the school where I teach that aimed at stopping violence before it started, by stopping the behaviors that led to physical violence. The thing is, it defined violence very broadly - to the point that rolling your eyes at a teacher was considered violence, along with a long list of other activities. Yes, there were "levels" of violence, and rolling your eyes generally just got you told to stop... unless you didn't, in which case the teacher could call it defiance, which was, of course, a higher level of violence, and the consequences then got more severe.

My point, I guess, is that any blanket policy, no matter how well-meaning, can be spread out to the point that it no longer performs as it was intended to perform. The key is knowing where to draw the line.

 

[bydand]

Her words were "I just couldn't sit there until an adult came along and watch something so wrong continue."

Your daughter sounds like a remarkable young person.

 

[MJS]

Interesting topic for me as I am dealing with this very issue.

My daughter came home telling me of an altercation she was involved in.

According to the Vice Principal, my daughter and two of her friends tried to pull a known bully off of another child who was being beaten up. There were no teachers around at the time. The "bully" proceeded to spit in my daughters face at which time, in reaction to being spit on, she smacked him on the face. He then spat on her two friends and elbowed one in the face.

The Vice Principal told me he would be calling her into the office to speak with her on Monday. I guess we will see how far their no violence policy goes and will find out if she gets suspended for slapping the kid in retaliation for him spitting on her.

If she gets suspended, I think that would be a tragedy. I have no problem with what she did. Actually, I am quite proud of her for trying to defend one of her friends.

Good for your daughter!! IMHO, I saw nothing wrong with what she did! I agree that it would be awful if she got suspended. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Mike

 

[Dark]

Reading over this I was thinking of when I was high school, this kid swung at me and I stepped back then he swung again and advanced forward. I side stepped and duck spun to his rear and he was still punching, I had my hand cocked to deliver a shuto to the shoulder but couldn't do it because he was just punching wildly at thin air. lol

I got suspended because the kid swung at me... So I looked at the principle and said "**** it I'm guilty anyway, and broke the kids nose in the principles office." My mom actually threatened to sue the school for punishing me without cause until I broke the kid's nose... I personally thought I made a point, the funny part was I didn't get suspended for the punch to the nose because they said it was rewarding me.

Suspended for being the victem and not punished for deliberately hitting someone... Go figure... If I ever get childs I'm home schooling them...

 

[pstarr]

Years ago when I worked for the Sheriff's Dept., my little boy got into a tiff on the school bus. He was attacked by an older boy who didn't like him just because he was new to the area (we'd just moved into this hick-filled area a short time earlier) and he defended himself.

The school's superintendent invited my wife and me to a meeting and said that he planned to suspend my son. I told him that that would seem to indicate that he subsidizes bullying. After all, if a child is attacked, shouldn't he have the right to defend himself? The superintendent said "no."

At that point, I asked, "So if I came across this table right now and punch your teeth out...which I might very well do, you aren't allowed to defend yourself...is that right?" And I stood up.
The poor jerk turned pale and began stammering, backing away from me.

And I told him that I thought I'd made my point- and my son wasn't suspended.

I think children have the right to defend themselves and should be taught how to do it. Otherwise, we'll end up with a generation of wimps who're afraid (for one reason or another) to stand up for themselves and their rights.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Interesting topic for me as I am dealing with this very issue.

You are doing a fantastic job raising your daughter. I am so proud of her for you too. Great kid and it would be an absolute injustice if she's suspended.

Years ago when I worked for the Sheriff's Dept., my little boy got into a tiff on the school bus. He was attacked by an older boy who didn't like him just because he was new to the area (we'd just moved into this hick-filled area a short time earlier) and he defended himself.

The school's superintendent invited my wife and me to a meeting and said that he planned to suspend my son. I told him that that would seem to indicate that he subsidizes bullying. After all, if a child is attacked, shouldn't he have the right to defend himself? The superintendent said "no."

At that point, I asked, "So if I came across this table right now and punch your teeth out...which I might very well do, you aren't allowed to defend yourself...is that right?" And I stood up.
The poor jerk turned pale and began stammering, backing away from me.

And I told him that I thought I'd made my point- and my son wasn't suspended.

LOL...I love the way you handled that.

I think children have the right to defend themselves and should be taught how to do it. Otherwise, we'll end up with a generation of wimps who're afraid (for one reason or another) to stand up for themselves and their rights.

So true. And, kids who fight back..who stand up to bullying...can help to eliminate the problem of bullying. Bullies don't keep bullying people who won't take it.

Reading over this I was thinking of when I was high school, this kid swung at me and I stepped back then he swung again and advanced forward. I side stepped and duck spun to his rear and he was still punching, I had my hand cocked to deliver a shuto to the shoulder but couldn't do it because he was just punching wildly at thin air. lol

I got suspended because the kid swung at me... So I looked at the principle and said "**** it I'm guilty anyway, and broke the kids nose in the principles office." My mom actually threatened to sue the school for punishing me without cause until I broke the kid's nose... I personally thought I made a point, the funny part was I didn't get suspended for the punch to the nose because they said it was rewarding me.

Suspended for being the victem and not punished for deliberately hitting someone... Go figure... If I ever get childs I'm home schooling them...

Yep, this is the kind of assinine stuff that happens when common sense is not used.

 

[Explorer]

We've been through the same thing with our oldest son. He'd always been big and strong and taught by his teachers not to fight back. The only problem was he was also very smart ... and talkative. This kid used to read the encyclopedia for fun! He had 'target' written all over him.

After one kid stuck a finger in his eye and dragged it down his face, causing a scratch from the eyeball down his cheek ... I'd had it and told him to stop anyone who tries to hurt him. He did a pretty good job until junoir high, where boys get very, very touch oriented ... y'know dominance behavior. When 5 boys took turns kicking the crap out of his legs ... I went into the principal -- one more time -- and simply told him I was done (none of the boys were punished because no teacher actually saw the fight) the school had never even given one of his tormentors an in school suspension. I called my lawyer and informed him I planned to sue the school, the district, the principal, vice principal and everyone else involved ... my plan was to own the school, the school district and everyone of those amateurs homes. My lawyer said fine, but he couldn't represent me because he was the school districts lawyer! Harry did say he'd talk to the principal and the district superintendant. We then filed charges against the principle perpitrator.

I got a call back that stated my son was allowed to defend himself if attacked. It took about 3 or 4 confrontations with the bullies and a couple of bruises ... but the nonsense stopped. Now my son is 22 and plays Division 1 Rugby for the University of Minnesota -- ranked in the top 20 nationally.

We're pretty happy with the results.

 

[trueaspirer]

Its sick - in today's society we are teaching that crime pays. Believe it. Those who are good, and try to defend themselves, end up in trouble. A bully in school, who started the fight, the most he'll get is couseling, because their must be some other reason why he started the fight, like a problem at home, so he is not accountable. Unlike that horrible kid back there who actually tried to defend himself. Yeah. Were gonna expel him. You see this everywhere, ont just in school. Take NYC for example. There, carrying weapons is illegal. Therefore, the good, law abiding citizens, who wont carry the weapon will be assaulted by the mugger, raper, murderer, etc, who doesn't care whats illegal and will have the weapon. And if the victim does have a weapon and tries to defend his/herself, they will probably end up in serious trouble for "unncessary violence". Sick stuff. It's all over today. Something needs to be done. Yeah right...who am I kidding...

 

[CuongNhuka]

BAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it is the worst possible thing. because of that, even if your life, or innocence, is on the line, you'll get in trouble.

 

[CuongNhuka]

This is a spin-off from the self defense in schools thread. Most school boards have a zero tolerance for violence policy. This includes fighting back. If you are attacked/assaulted, and fight back, you get suspended. I think this is a knee-jerk reaction to some unfortunate situations involving extreme violence in certain schools. I don't believe the overall effects of this policy have been considered.

Young kids, and high school teenagers will do stupid things that a more mature and responsible adult will not. In an ideal world, every one would respect every one else's property and bodies. We don't live in an ideal world. No matter what we teach them, we know that some boy will grab some girls breast, perhaps to impress his friends. If the girls hits the offending boy, she gets suspended. If the girl does not have the right to defend herself, she becomes a victim, and is subtlely taught that it is OK for her to be violated.
This contradicts the idea of empowerment that we are supposed to be teaching our children.


Thoughts?

Acctuly these things normally are taken into consideration. So why do they do it anyways? 3 simple reasons:
1). The people in charge of schools don't count students as reliable witnesses. Thus, they can only take the story of teachers and the first one to report it. Which is normally the story of the attacker getting counterattacked.

2). The people in charge of schools don't acctuly care about the students. Many teachers work in schools for one of three reasons:
a. Health benefents.
b. It's easy.
c. The teachers unions have it set up so that members more-or-less cann't fired for anything. Even sending sexual e-mails to students that are very underage

3). Part of the point of the zero tolernce policy is to teach students that they are NOT allowed to do anything to protect themselves, because they are not worthy of there own safety.

The entire point is TOO teach kidds that they are inferior. And beacuse of some school trends, policys, and imcompent teachers American students are massivly behind on international standardized tests. Stuff like this is an example of the crapp that students have to deal with.

 

[tradrockrat]

Acctuly these things normally are taken into consideration. So why do they do it anyways? 3 simple reasons:
1). The people in charge of schools don't count students as reliable witnesses. Thus, they can only take the story of teachers and the first one to report it. Which is normally the story of the attacker getting counterattacked.

2). The people in charge of schools don't acctuly care about the students. Many teachers work in schools for one of three reasons:
a. Health benefents.
b. It's easy.
c. The teachers unions have it set up so that members more-or-less cann't fired for anything. Even sending sexual e-mails to students that are very underage

3). Part of the point of the zero tolernce policy is to teach students that they are NOT allowed to do anything to protect themselves, because they are not worthy of there own safety.

The entire point is TOO teach kidds that they are inferior. And beacuse of some school trends, policys, and imcompent teachers American students are massivly behind on international standardized tests. Stuff like this is an example of the crapp that students have to deal with.

just a quick post - I'm not intersted in an argument here, but please realize that yes, bad things do happen in schools, and yes there have been and will be future abuses of power in schools, but they are exceptions to the rule - not the everyday reality across the country. There are a few of us on this site that are teachers and some might take offense to your genrealizations and aspersions upon our character.

Daily I watch hard working, dilligent men and women struggle to create an atmosphere of caring and concern to teach and develop young men and women into successful individuals. And they do this quietly, without fanfare, watching teachers get mentioned in the news only when something bad happens.

Teaching is not easy - it's the hardest job I've ever held.

Zero tolerance is in place to reduce violence by assuring consequences to any that are involved in it. Do I agree with zero tolerance? The concept is great, the execution is tremendously flawed. The concept - since you seemed to have not grasped it - is to create a safe environment for ALL students. Unfortunately - this doesn't work in real life. As far as self esteem of the student goes - that is our number one priority at my school - build self esteem and instill pride in their life.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Thoughts?

I agree with you entirely and it is a point of great frustration to me that school administrators, while recognizing their own personal rights to self-defence, ignore the rights of students who are the victims of UPROVOKED aggression. Good thread.

Lest others think that my scenario of the "unprovoked assault" is contrived; I assure you I lived it during the majority of my high school and junior high school years. It sucks, and I lost all respect for persons in authority who took the path of least resistance and held all responsible for any incident regardless of culpability.

Great thread! You ask great questions.

I've been through the same kind of thing. here's the whole senario:
Mrs. Matney (vice principal): Why do think Rodney stole you sun glasses? He's a good kid he wouldn't do that!!
Me: Because he's stolen form me before...
Mrs. Matney: But that doesn't matter, the past has no affect on the present.
Me: If you would let me finish. He is also the only the person I have in both second and ninth hour. If he doesn't want me to call him a theif then he should explain that!!!
Mrs. Matney: Well, Rodney can you?
Rodney: *shruggs and shakes head* No. But he kicked my freind in the stomach last month.
Mrs. Matney: Rodney, why don'e you get back to class. I need to have a private talk with Mr. Robst (my last name) about the ethics of unprovoked violence
Rodney: *smiles widely, throws me a dirty look and leaves*
Mrs. Matney: well
Me: He forgot a part.
Mrs Matney: Sure, right *sarcasim*
Me: His frind grabbed my -Blank-. Then I turned around and kick as hard as I could to get him to back off. Then him and a dozen of his freinds started to circle me while THREATING TO KILL ME!!!!
Mrs. Matney: Why didn't you report it?
Me: Because you're not going to do anything, no matter what.

Long story short, she insults me, tells me to fill out an incedent report, and promises to get the guy in trouble. This was about in September. Now school is out, and I was proven right. She also threated to expel me for defending the inocence of my left butt cheek.
And all the counclers, administartors, and teachers wonder why I don't trust them. after that and dozen OTHER times they tried to expel me for either defendeing myself, nerely needing to, or haveing someone threating to kill me in front of a teacher that does nothing, or the year long mental torcher they made me endure at the expelled school last year i should really trust them all, shouldn't I

 

[tradrockrat]

guess I ought to post about zero tolerance a little, huh?

I've been known to have conversations with students who have issues with bullies and yet the school doesn't seem to be able to solve the problem. I usually set up a "sting" opperation with them to catch the bully. At that point, staff has caught the perp in the act of verbal / physical /mental abuse and whammo! In school suspension or worse.

Entrapment? you bettcha. But it is effective, and the real culpret recieves just consequences for his/ her actions. The best part is, they never know about the sting, so the student doesn't have to worry about retribution.

In real life, the problem with zero tolerance is that it rarley gets applied to anything more than outright fights. So teasing, threats and verbal abuse gets ignored.

Of course there is that opposite extremewhere the student who says, "I wanna kill you!" gets suspended...

 

[CuongNhuka]

Zero-tolerance in theory is a good idea. You get busted with drugs..you're suspended...no second chances. You bring a weapon to school...you're suspended. You assault someone...you're suspended. BUT it needs to be balanced with common sense to truly be effective, otherwise the innocent are punished along with the guilty.

The twisted thing is, the zero tolernce policy is really only applied to violence. I have walked in on god nows how people having sex in the bathrooms, selling drugs, dry humping in the halls, or smoking pot.
You are right, it is a good THEORY, but it doesn't work in reality. Mostly because it is applied wrong, or the people in charge don't really do what they are supposed to do. It's Communism. Bad annology, I know, but you get the point.

 

[CuongNhuka]

or even the suspension of a student on grounds of knife possession simply because she had a plastic knife in her lunch bag to spread peanut butter.

the truely ironic thing, those are the knives that are given out at lunch

Sometimes, I wonder why some school boards use this policy to discipline the above students in such a manner, while refusing to crack down on the true bad apples in the school system, such as drug dealers, gang bangers, etc. Maybe they're afraid of backlash (from the criminal element or from the public that might perceive these thugs as "good kids"). Maybe they just want to (improperly) flex their muscles. Whatever the reasons, these boards are going to have to one day wake up and realize that punishing the folks who don't cause trouble isn't going to make the criminal element disappear.

and your right on all acounts.

 

[CuongNhuka]

....then we fall back to issues of funding no doubt.

LOTS need corrected.

Schools don't need more funding. The Federal Gov. gives public schools $10,000 per student in the district. The funding problem is a myth. And it was started by the people in charge of public schools. The entire problem from horrible mismagange mant of funds. If they want more money, they should stop wasteing it.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Interesting topic for me as I am dealing with this very issue.

My daughter came home telling me of an altercation she was involved in.

According to the Vice Principal, my daughter and two of her friends tried to pull a known bully off of another child who was being beaten up. There were no teachers around at the time. The "bully" proceeded to spit in my daughters face at which time, in reaction to being spit on, she smacked him on the face. He then spat on her two friends and elbowed one in the face.

The Vice Principal told me he would be calling her into the office to speak with her on Monday. I guess we will see how far their no violence policy goes and will find out if she gets suspended for slapping the kid in retaliation for him spitting on her.

If she gets suspended, I think that would be a tragedy. I have no problem with what she did. Actually, I am quite proud of her for trying to defend one of her friends.

She did the right thing, and should be awarded, and of course just watch instead she is going to be suspended.

 

[CuongNhuka]

One of my former TKD students was being taunted by a bully - the bully called him names, called his younger brother names, called his mother names... anything he could think of to make my student take the first swing (and therefore get in the most trouble). My student (who had a very short fuse at the time) stood there and took it... until the bully tried to punch him. My student stood there and blocked for several minutes until a teacher showed up, and never once punched back, or kicked... although the blocks were hard enough to cause bruises. They were both suspended for 3 days for being in a fight.

If I could count the number of times that nerely happened to me. A recent one that shows similar...intelgence...is when I was nerely expeled for haveing my life threated outside a class room. Because even though a teacher saw it, he managed to b.s. his way into saying I threatened him!!!