Zero tolerance in schools-good or bad?

[CuongNhuka]

the funny part was I didn't get suspended for the punch to the nose because they said it was rewarding me.

most kids DO look at suspension as a reward.

 

[CuongNhuka]

We've been through the same thing with our oldest son. He'd always been big and strong and taught by his teachers not to fight back. The only problem was he was also very smart ... and talkative. This kid used to read the encyclopedia for fun! He had 'target' written all over him.

After one kid stuck a finger in his eye and dragged it down his face, causing a scratch from the eyeball down his cheek ... I'd had it and told him to stop anyone who tries to hurt him. He did a pretty good job until junoir high, where boys get very, very touch oriented ... y'know dominance behavior. When 5 boys took turns kicking the crap out of his legs ... I went into the principal -- one more time -- and simply told him I was done (none of the boys were punished because no teacher actually saw the fight) the school had never even given one of his tormentors an in school suspension. I called my lawyer and informed him I planned to sue the school, the district, the principal, vice principal and everyone else involved ... my plan was to own the school, the school district and everyone of those amateurs homes. My lawyer said fine, but he couldn't represent me because he was the school districts lawyer! Harry did say he'd talk to the principal and the district superintendant. We then filed charges against the principle perpitrator.

I got a call back that stated my son was allowed to defend himself if attacked. It took about 3 or 4 confrontations with the bullies and a couple of bruises ... but the nonsense stopped. Now my son is 22 and plays Division 1 Rugby for the University of Minnesota -- ranked in the top 20 nationally.

We're pretty happy with the results.

this is beatiful!!!!!!!! god bless you man!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CuongNhuka]

just a quick post - I'm not intersted in an argument here, but please realize that yes, bad things do happen in schools, and yes there have been and will be future abuses of power in schools, but they are exceptions to the rule - not the everyday reality across the country. There are a few of us on this site that are teachers and some might take offense to your genrealizations and aspersions upon our character.

Daily I watch hard working, dilligent men and women struggle to create an atmosphere of caring and concern to teach and develop young men and women into successful individuals. And they do this quietly, without fanfare, watching teachers get mentioned in the news only when something bad happens.

Teaching is not easy - it's the hardest job I've ever held.

Zero tolerance is in place to reduce violence by assuring consequences to any that are involved in it. Do I agree with zero tolerance? The concept is great, the execution is tremendously flawed. The concept - since you seemed to have not grasped it - is to create a safe environment for ALL students. Unfortunately - this doesn't work in real life. As far as self esteem of the student goes - that is our number one priority at my school - build self esteem and instill pride in their life.

I know there are many great teachers out there. But thre are many more who seem to care little for students. I've even heard a teacher say he doesn't now what he is teaching in one of his classes. I have to agree since I was in that class. Anouther teacher said that her subject was probably the easiest to teach since all the work she really had to do was be a chapter or two ahead of the class. Which is why she is a teacher.
Anouther teacher of mine would get me in trouble if I particapated in class. Mostly since I was using simple logic, and she was not useing any. What kind of topics? This mostly, we cann't defnd ourselves. I replied, so if someone is trying to kill you, you're not going to do anything? Ganted my smart -blank- comments probably didn't help. Bt I had to have my life threatened by the people that went there every day. While teachers watched and did nothing. So...
I suppose you are right though, I did use some generalities that are somewhat hurtful. There are many good teachers who acctuly care about there students and the subject. But there are many more who seem to not care about anyone or anything other then themselves.

 

[Lisa]

She did the right thing, and should be awarded, and of course just watch instead she is going to be suspended.

Actually, no, she wasn't, thankfully. I spoke with the principal who actually told me that he appreciated what she did in trying to get between the bully and the other student and that if she feels any reprecussions for her actions she is to tell him immediately.

If she was suspended, my husband and I were going to get her a tshirt to wear back to school:

I was suspended
and
my parents were proud of me!

we were figuring she would maybe last one class and then be sent home
​

 

[CuongNhuka]

Actually, no, she wasn't, thankfully. I spoke with the principal who actually told me that he appreciated what she did in trying to get between the bully and the other student and that if she feels any reprecussions for her actions she is to tell him immediately.

If she was suspended, my husband and I were going to get her a tshirt to wear back to school:

I was suspended
and
my parents were proud of me!

we were figuring she would maybe last one class and then be sent home

​

​

thats both lucky and funny

 

[Kacey]

Schools don't need more funding. The Federal Gov. gives public schools $10,000 per student in the district. The funding problem is a myth. And it was started by the people in charge of public schools. The entire problem from horrible mismagange mant of funds. If they want more money, they should stop wasteing it.

Most school districts have less than that per student per year, from all sources - the median is more like $8000.

As a teacher, I have seen trends come and go - and I have seen too many like yourself who believe what the media tells them. Are there bad teachers out there? Yes - just like there are bad police officers, store clerks, doctors, and everything else... but very few media outlets highlight the good members of any profession, because it doesn't sell advertising.

1). The people in charge of schools don't count students as reliable witnesses. Thus, they can only take the story of teachers and the first one to report it. Which is normally the story of the attacker getting counterattacked.

I don't know where you go/went to school, but students are considered reliable witnesses in the school where I teach, and have been for the 10 years I've been a teacher there. The story I related occurred over 15 years ago, in a different district, right after the passage of a no-tolerance weapon law, which caused people to interpret similar ordinances more narrowly. However, many student witnesses have been proven to reort events in a light that makes their friend look good, regardless of who started it - as with a case currently in the Denver news about a teen who knifed and killed another teen in school, and claimed it was self-defense, despite the other teen being unarmed - and all of the attacker's friends support his story, that he was in realistic fear for his life, and all the friends of the dead boy support the other side, that it was "just a fight".

2). The people in charge of schools don't acctuly care about the students. Many teachers work in schools for one of three reasons:

1. Understanding the importance of the job.
2. Wanting to do something that makes a difference for the future.
3. Wanting to give back to the community.

a. Health benefents.

Right... sure... I went to college for 6 years to get a BA and a teaching certificate because no other job would give me similar health benefits. Somehow, I don't think so - especially since I had better benefits as a student than I do now.

b. It's easy.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That's a good joke! Have you ever tried teaching a group of students like yourself, who think that they know everything, that the teacher knows nothing, and that they are only there because a parent says they have to be? Maybe you should try it some time and see if it's easy - and not with your friends in the class, either.

c. The teachers unions have it set up so that members more-or-less cann't fired for anything. Even sending sexual e-mails to students that are very underage

This is so untrue that it's laughable. I was probationary for 3 years before my job became permanent - that meant that at any time, the district could say "thanks, but don't come back next year" - no reason necessary. One of the reasons that the statistics for teacher firing and quitting are relatively low is because teachers in their first 3 years in a district (or up to 5 years, in some places) are considered temporary employees, and can be let go for no reason or any reason - and not qualify for so much unemployment, if they are let go at the end of an annual contract. Also, a teacher who is fired for cause generally loses his/her licensure and thus cannot work as a teacher again. That teachers cannot be fired because of the union is a common misconception perpetuated by people who read it somewhere and take it as the truth because they saw it in print. And yes, I do know teachers who were fired for cause, and yes, I was non-renewed - twice, in fact, before I started my current job - and neither time was due to my performance; one was because the charter school was closed and all the non-tenured teachers were non-renewed (and only a month before the next school year started), and the other time was because a teacher who had been in an administrative position left it and wanted a job back - and she got mine. These events occurred in 2 different districts (I currenlty work in a 3rd district). Both times the non-renewal simply said "the school board feels it can find a more qualified person elsewhere".

3). Part of the point of the zero tolernce policy is to teach students that they are NOT allowed to do anything to protect themselves, because they are not worthy of there own safety.

I don't even know where to start with this one. You have been fed a line and you have chosen to believe it rather than research it, and I find it not worth my time to argue with people who have already made their minds; it devolves into "because I said, that's why", and I'm just not in the mood. Simply because students are encouraged to find other ways to deal with conflict than hitting back doesn't mean they are not allowed to protect themselves - and yes, I do know students at the school where I work who have successfully defended themselves, and have not received any negative consequence for their actions, as long as they did not counter-attack - a girl who blocked another girl's strikes was not in trouble, but the boy who was punched and pushed the kid who punched him down a flight of stairs was.

The entire point is TOO teach kidds that they are inferior. And beacuse of some school trends, policys, and imcompent teachers American students are massivly behind on international standardized tests. Stuff like this is an example of the crapp that students have to deal with.

As I say, you seem to have developed an opinion based solely on your own experiences, and have generalized that opinion to every situation possible. Does what you say happen? Unfortunately, it does. That does not, however, mean that it happens all the time to every student, as you seem to think that it does. My students (and I teach special education in a middle school) most definitely do not leave my room, their other teachers' rooms, or the school feeling that they are inferior; rather, they leave with a sense of accomplishment - and that was certainly what I saw as they left today for the summer. I'm sorry your school isn't like that (or that you only see the negative side) but not all schools are that way.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

One of my wifes TKD students was suspended from middle school for defending himself, even though there were several witnesses that saw that he didn't start it, including a teacher.

I'm just wondering if anyone has taken a school to court for such a reaction from a school.

Jeff

 

[fnorfurfoot]

Last year, when my son was in Kindergarten, he had a bully picking on him through the whole year. He was aware that fighting in school was not allowed, and because of this he didn't do much to protect himself from the boy. The teacher and the principal knew that the boy was a problem and kept telling me that they were working with him with his "socialization issues." My son came home with scratches on his face, bruises, and once there was a hand print shaped bruise on his foreare where this other boy had grabbed him. I complained and talked with the teacher, and basically she told me that she would monitor the situation but that she couldn't prevent the boys from interacting. So basically my son had to be the guinea pig to try and correct the other boys behavior problems.

My son is a peanut. He was the smallest child in his class last year and he still is this year. The boy was a full head taller and weight roughly fifteen pounds more than my son. I was annoyed by the school's attitude to say the least. In fact, I called and talked to the principal one morning to discuss the problem and that same day, two hours later my wife recieved a call from the school nurse that my son had a mark on his face from the other boy scratching him.

I had enough and told my son to do whatever it took to keep the other boy away from him. Hit the child enough times to knock him down, make him cry, I didn't care. I told him that I would gladly recieve a call from his principal if he defended himself. I told him to not worry about getting in trouble. Sure enough, the boy started up with him again on the playground. He pulled my son off of the ladder to the slide. I kind of wish he did something more along the lines of an actual technique but what he did got the job done anyway. When the boy came at him, my son hit the bully with a U-punch (one fist to the chest and the other to the stomach). The bully fell over backwards. The two teachers saw my son hit him and they called me about it. There was no punishment at all. My son is so quiet and he had taken so much abuse from the boy through the year that they just figured that he had had enough and finally snapped.

 

[Ceicei]

In elemetary school, my son saw another kid getting pummelled on the ground by two boys, so he got in to intervene. One of the two boys then turned against my son and the second boy was coming. He did a front thrusting kick to his chest.

Of course, the teacher monitoring the playground came around the corner to see my son kick.

After a lot of talking with the school and making them listen to the boy who was originally attacked by the two, my son ended up with only a warning and was told to go get a teacher instead of intervening.



When my son moved up to junior high, he was outside playing football during lunch with his friend (who also goes to the same MA school). One kid came up behind his friend and did a sucker punch (he got a black eye). My son then ran up ready to fight. The attacker fled. Nothing more came out of that even though a report was filed with the school. The school didn't even suspend the attacker. His friend was told by his Dad that if he got attacked again, he has full permission to fight back. I told my son the same thing. So far, no one bothered my son or his friends again.

- Ceicei

 

[tradrockrat]

As a freshman in highschool I got into a fight with a fellow football team member one day. The kid was just being a bully and when I didn't cower in fear he took a shot at me. I told him not to do it again and he hit me a second time. At that point I pummled the kid until he was on the ground and then went inside to get a drink of water.

The principle went outside, got the story, then came inside and asked me if I was in a fight. I answered truthfully and both I and the bully were held in the office until the parents got there. The principle was going to suspend me for three days and the other kid for 2 (he came out on the wrong end of the fight). When the story came out that I had been hit twice first, my father said to the principle that he didn't care what the school did, I wasn't going to recieve any punishment at home for defending myself, but that the other kid had BETTER recieve the same consequences.

They gave us both three days. him for starting it, and me for ... uh, "enthusiastically" defending myself.

My MA teacher didn't really like the amount of force I used so the next week I got to spare his national kickboxing champion for a round - it still hurts.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Kacey, I don't wish to argue either. All of that was mostly venting. I have done plenty of research into this matter. I have seen the student rule books for three differnit districts in my area, and they agree on a couple of things. One is an comment that says that the story of a student (as far as incidents are concerned) are so biased toward one end or the other, that they can almost not be taken seriously. So if a faculty member see's an incident, only there version will be taken into account. Otherwise, it's the version of the first to turn a report.
And I have personally heard teachers say there job is easy, they took it for the health benefits, and after they pass there probation period, they pretty much cann't be fired. An example is in the New York district a teacher sent sexual e-mails to a 15 year old student. While he was being 'fired' he was still being payed, and it took almost six years to finnally kick him out. They say it is easy because they have no real incintive to work hard. Or really at all. They get payed not what the perfomance of there students is.
And I have been told four times, in four schools, that no matter what I am not allowed to defend my self, because I'm a kid. Because "the oppion of a child on what is dangerous is vastly differnit then what is acctuly dangerous."
True many teachers struggle against hell, high water, regulations, bad students, worse parents, and some adminstrators to teach better then they were taught. And I have taught a group of students my age, none of whom I got along with. I did better then the teacher at keeping there attention, which is a good chunk of the battle.
And now I have two finishing comments. First of all, to everyone who read my posts, and either has, or will reply. I was mostly venting some built up furry at the school district I go to. So, alot of what said was baised to my side of this discusion. But I assure you that all of it was still based on facts or individual occurences. And now since I seem to have become unpopular, I will reply to those who have replied to me, and call it good with this thread.
And to the coward who gave me negitive repuation, and decided not to give his name. You are one to talk. I my not be able to spell well, but unlike you I have good grammar. And if you are going to insult me, fine. I really don't care. I'm used to being inuslted by other students, upper classmen, and yes even my own teachers. So I really don't care what you have to say about me. But if you're going to, why not try doing it with some courage. Say it on the thread. Or at leats put your name. I may be a biased, unspellable, jerk, but atleats I am brave enough to laugh at the dog when he's looking, not turned away.

John

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I don't wish to argue either. All of that was mostly venting.

I can certainly understand the venting - there's a lot in the public school system (from both the student side and the staff side) to vent about. Too many laws have been written by people who have never been in the schools most affected by the laws... zero tolerance being one of them. When the zero tolerance for weapons law was passed in Colorado, one of the current fads among middle school students was paper "claws" worn over the fingers - and I knew a student who was expelled for wearing them. It was absurd. As the law becomes older, and legal battles are fought, interpretation becomes a little more realistic - although it still has a way to go.

I have done plenty of research into this matter. I have seen the student rule books for three differnit districts in my area, and they agree on a couple of things. One is an comment that says that the story of a student (as far as incidents are concerned) are so biased toward one end or the other, that they can almost not be taken seriously. So if a faculty member see's an incident, only there version will be taken into account. Otherwise, it's the version of the first to turn a report.

I can understand the frustration this could cause - there are too many factors that affect witness statements to rely solely on the first person to report, and that system encourages people to lie for their own benefit.

And I have personally heard teachers say there job is easy, they took it for the health benefits, and after they pass there probation period, they pretty much cann't be fired. An example is in the New York district a teacher sent sexual e-mails to a 15 year old student. While he was being 'fired' he was still being payed, and it took almost six years to finnally kick him out. They say it is easy because they have no real incintive to work hard. Or really at all. They get payed not what the perfomance of there students is.

Sadly, in many places this is still true - but not nearly as many as it was in the past. And just for contrast, I do know teachers who were fired for cause - and while there was some legal wrangling, none of it lasted more than a couple of months, during which time the teacher was not being paid, unless he or she was using accrued leave time.

And I have been told four times, in four schools, that no matter what I am not allowed to defend my self, because I'm a kid. Because "the oppion of a child on what is dangerous is vastly differnit then what is acctuly dangerous."

If you were 5, then perhaps this would be true... but as silly as it is, zero tolerance became the policy because it eliminated all the other loopholes and interpretation. Many things in public policy are on pendulums - the policy swings to one side, and then the other, back and forth repeatedly, until it finally lands somewhere in the middle. The best thing we can do is help the pendulum land in a reasonable place, with a meaningful, and useable policy... but it takes time, and only such incidents as those described in this thread, as absurd as they are individually, can affect the necessary change - and it takes a compilation over time. Any school district, or individual school, or business of any size, experiences the same pendulum - as does the government, which swings more widely and slowly than any other organization, by virtue of its size and complexity.

True many teachers struggle against hell, high water, regulations, bad students, worse parents, and some adminstrators to teach better then they were taught. And I have taught a group of students my age, none of whom I got along with. I did better then the teacher at keeping there attention, which is a good chunk of the battle.

Indeed.

And now I have two finishing comments. First of all, to everyone who read my posts, and either has, or will reply. I was mostly venting some built up furry at the school district I go to. So, alot of what said was baised to my side of this discusion. But I assure you that all of it was still based on facts or individual occurences. And now since I seem to have become unpopular, I will reply to those who have replied to me, and call it good with this thread.

I considered not responding to this post because of the negativity that had built up in it... but after thinking about it a while I wanted to come back to it, for this specific reason: it takes a mature and thoughtful person to say what you just said, and I wanted to point that out, as it deserves recognition.

And to the coward who gave me negitive repuation, and decided not to give his name. You are one to talk. I my not be able to spell well, but unlike you I have good grammar. And if you are going to insult me, fine. I really don't care. I'm used to being inuslted by other students, upper classmen, and yes even my own teachers. So I really don't care what you have to say about me. But if you're going to, why not try doing it with some courage. Say it on the thread. Or at leats put your name. I may be a biased, unspellable, jerk, but atleats I am brave enough to laugh at the dog when he's looking, not turned away.

John

The bolded part of this paragraph deserves recognition as well. The reputation system does allow for anonymous responses, and that can be good and bad - it's much easier to give negative rep anonymously - so the best I can say is take the good with the bad, use what is useful, and give the rest the attention it deserves... which, in some cases, may be no attention at all.

:asian:

 

[CuongNhuka]

The bolded part of this paragraph deserves recognition as well. The reputation system does allow for anonymous responses, and that can be good and bad - it's much easier to give negative rep anonymously - so the best I can say is take the good with the bad, use what is useful, and give the rest the attention it deserves... which, in some cases, may be no attention at all.

:asian:

Kacey, any props from you is more then welcome. You are a truely good person and freind. And I wouldn't mind being taught by you. Too bad your a middle school teacher, and I'm going to be starting my junior year here in August.
And while I do like the reputation system, I don't like that negitive reputaion can be given anonymously. Hay maybe we should petition Bob Hubbard to make so that when you give negitive rep you name is included automaticly (lol). But like I said, I really don't care that much about that person. I know that while, I may not be able to spell, I got at least two things up on that person.

John, who now feels save comming back to this thread.