Bulletmen and Steve Hayes

[Connovar]

Clearly the best training is full contact and full resistance with minumum protective gear and rules. However there are injury issues etc. jBulletmen are not without their problems but it can very successfully recreate the adrenalin stress and dynamics that are in a real fight. I dont think it would have much use for sport training. For example I am planning on sending my two daughters to a program which utilizes them. Neither of them have ever experienced what a really violent attack feels like and I think this exposure plus learning to apply techniques within that stress environment is the best way I can prepare them to defend themselves if they ever need to.

I now box and do bjj for fun, but I would never try to classically box or try to take my opponent to the ground and armbar him in the real deal. My experience has been that only the simple things work when the crap hits the fan and the type of simple techniques that are used in bulletman training are the kind that work for real.

 

[Tgace]

You can do stupid training with simunitions too, because everybody knows they are not real guns and you are not going to be killed.... its not about the equipment, its about the training.

 

[Shogun]

I am not totally downplaying the ideas of bulletman, I just dont agree with it for reasons myself and technopunk brought up. and no, you cant assume someone is going to react a certain way, but you should at least have an idea of the types of openings. some of the attacks given will have automatic responses. stuff the body cant control. when the eyes are damaged, the hands will ALWAYS come up, as much as you fight it. ever been sprayed with OC? your hands WILL come up. you WILL go into Rhinorhea. same thing with the arm being cut or the neck. your other hand will support it. I can see bulletman being used for letting someone know how hard they can hit or grapple without breaking a hand or foot against a live target but to me, thats the extent.

 

[Tgace]

I am not totally downplaying the ideas of bulletman, I just dont agree with it for reasons myself and technopunk brought up. and no, you cant assume someone is going to react a certain way, but you should at least have an idea of the types of openings. some of the attacks given will have automatic responses. stuff the body cant control. when the eyes are damaged, the hands will ALWAYS come up, as much as you fight it. ever been sprayed with OC? your hands WILL come up. you WILL go into Rhinorhea. same thing with the arm being cut or the neck. your other hand will support it. I can see bulletman being used for letting someone know how hard they can hit or grapple without breaking a hand or foot against a live target but to me, thats the extent.

True, but when are you ever going to use full power on another living, reacting person in training anyway? If you are doing that to each other on a regular basis to see "how a person is really going to react" I wouldnt stay around for too long. I plan on living a long tome and prefer to do it still with eyes, functioning joints etc.

 

[Shogun]

Also true, but when are you gonna get attacked by a giant pillow who does not respond to automatic human reaction?

 

[Tgace]

I dont know what the debate here is about...does SKH use this stuff all the time? To the detriment of technique training? Or is this just a case of "if he does it Im against it"?

 

[Dale Seago]

I dont know what the debate here is about...does SKH use this stuff all the time? To the detriment of technique training? Or is this just a case of "if he does it Im against it"?

What I gathered from earlier in the thread is that he uses it for specific purposes, not as a general tool/methodology for free-sparring, and I think that has value.

What I don't like -- and this is just me, personally -- is the way some others use it in more general sparring practice, doing a lot of striking and kicking which wouldn't be effective against an armored opponent. If the way you train is the way you fight, you should instead be using the methods we've developed over centuries to fight people wearing battle armor.

 

[r erman]

some of the attacks given will have automatic responses. stuff the body cant control. when the eyes are damaged, the hands will ALWAYS come up, as much as you fight it.

Actually I was going to post something similar to this yesterday. Extension and retraction of the limbs is one of the few reactions you can reliably count on--but they aren't absolutes.

And, btw, normally when the head is attacked--especially the eyes--the hands go out before they come in. It is a flinch reaction of the body to regain balance. The arms normally retract when a solid body shot is delivered.

 

[Tgace]

What I gathered from earlier in the thread is that he uses it for specific purposes, not as a general tool/methodology for free-sparring, and I think that has value.

What I don't like -- and this is just me, personally -- is the way some others use it in more general sparring practice, doing a lot of striking and kicking which wouldn't be effective against an armored opponent. If the way you train is the way you fight, you should instead be using the methods we've developed over centuries to fight people wearing battle armor.

Is this stuff being used to "simulate" armor? In my experience redman suits are just a tool to "let loose" on every once and a while, just a means to experience really throwing full force shots on a moving, thinking target without injury. The padding is meant to simulate body parts, not real armor.

 

[Tengu6]

This discussion has been hashed and rehashed so many times, that is why I have avoided it but Dale brings up something I completely agree with.

Using padding is a great tool if used properly. Making it the basis of a martial arts program is a mistake, IMO. The way RMCAT uses it is good. It uses 5 or 6 simple but effective techniques. Thier training is not to see if they can effectively apply the technique so much as it is to overcome the adrenal stess. Very effective IMO.

I personaly use the padding to teach what it is like to deal with an attacker using full mass......meaning, he is plowing through you. What you learn from this is balance and use of kukan....two crucial factors. IMO, padding can be an effective tool if it is understood and used correctly.

Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

The way RMCAT uses it is good. It uses 5 or 6 simple but effective techniques. Thier training is not to see if they can effectively apply the technique so much as it is to overcome the adrenal stess

Which brings up the question I am trying to find an answer to. Post #22 of this thread says that the way Toshindo uses the redman suit is to test certain techniques for belt tests only. The emphisis seems to be not on using the suits to get the person used to dealing with adrenal stress situations. Is this really the case?

 

[arnisador]

How does the manufacturer recommendit be used?

 

[Tengu6]

Don, the Quest curriculum does not use the adrenal stress training as RMCAT does. As SKH puts it, "the suits are used to apply a little more speed and intensity". I suppose on a certain level the adreanal effect comes into play but not at all like it is addressed with RMCAT training.

I suppose a point to bring up is that not all Quest Centers operate the same. Although that was the intention, many Quest instructors teach thier own way. My previous instructor who operates a Quest Center (I was there through the Quest Center trainsition) trains regularly with Soke and Shiraishi sensei. My point in mentioning this is only to say that it is possible that the Adrenal training is implemented in other Quest schools, but not likely if they havent recieved proper training.
Markk Bush

 

[Shogun]

And, btw, normally when the head is attacked--especially the eyes--the hands go out before they come in. It is a flinch reaction of the body to regain balance. The arms normally retract when a solid body shot is delivered.

Having witnessed many people being sprayed, and having been sprayed, when the eyes go out, the hands come up. the hands shooting out isnt guaranteed. the head also jerks back. and yes, when the body is hit, flinching occurs. so if someone is hit while wearing a suit, no flinching would happen, and if it did, it wouldnt be as much. I think the adrenal part of it is good, like dale said, specific purposes.

you should instead be using the methods we've developed over centuries to fight people wearing battle armor.

so basically dont punch and kick like you would an unarmored person.

 

[Cruentus]

Paul, Ah-ha. You hit on the heart of my problem with this type of training, and, after reading this I understand better where MY hangup comes from...

can I amend this Quote???

If you are a GOOD instructor, you can guage...

Here is my experience with this "type" of training, take it for what it is worth... to all of you probably nothing... Back when I studied Hapkido we had somthing like a redman suit we used for the shcools "Womens Self Defense Program"... The "bad Guy" would put it on and attack women, and they responded.

One of the Blackbelts decided this was a good tool for his "Street Sparring" class. (Different from the point sparring class, because you could strike the head, legs and use sweeps) He would put it on and you would "fight". He always... ALWAYS... kicked the snot out of me, and everyone else, because he ignored EVERYTHING we threw at him. My blows to the suit were totaly innefective in ways that sparring people out of the suit were not... becuase the suit was armor for him, more than a training tool for us. It used to frustrate me, because it made me feel like i couldnt DO anything. I would equate it to imagining someone pissed you off, but they were in their car, so all you could do was beat your fist on their windshied while they laughed at you.

Techno,

You described what I feel is a mistake made by a lot of padded suit instructors; a mistake that actually moves the training away from reality rather then towards it.

From what I heard from other instructors, when the FIST suit was first introduced to the LE community, it wasn't being properly used. Instructors weren't reacting realistically or helping to build confidence of the officers, they were just beating the crap out of them. Now, though, the training has evolved.

The thing with being a suited instructor or role player, you have to actually train to be able to create realistic scenario's and to respond realistically. You can't just put the suit on and fight people like a stay puffed marshmello man who is invincable to techniques and expect them to get anything out of it.

Also, someone mentioned adrenal stress training, and I wanted to reiterate that scenario training is the single best way to create adrenal stress (outside of a realistic situation), and the suit is a great enhancement for that.

 

[r erman]

Having witnessed many people being sprayed, and having been sprayed, when the eyes go out, the hands come up

OC creates a different reaction all together. We are discussing impact from a physical assualt, I thought. You are right about the head going back, though.

 

[Connovar]

My problem with OC sprays are all the fine muscle movements required to deploy it. You need to pull it out of the pocket, identify which end is the nozzle, turn off an safety device, hopefully know the wind direction and then you can spray. During our bulletman training especially in the early fights I witnessed several times people for example raise their hand back to swing a club and the club went flying out of their hands because they lost their grip under stress, I also saws knives dropped as they tried to deploy them. During a high stress incident this sort of behavior is common and I wonder if I could effectively employ an OC spray. I think I will settle for a kobutan instead.

 

[Tgace]

I dunno, Ive seen OC employed in some pretty "high stress" situations without much trouble...besides spraying your partner or yourself in the process....

 

[Connovar]

I am thinking of oc spray for your average civilian type. I would expect law enforcement officers etc would have better training and more experience with high stress events.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think I will settle for a kobutan instead.

An excellent choice of small concealable, MOSTLY legal weapon.