Bulletmen and Steve Hayes

[Connovar]

Sounds like a good idea to me as this thread is getting distracted. Has anyone here actually done the bulletman in Steve Hayes program. The bulletmen at RMCAT attack in an unscripted manner and the individual has to fight them off using whatever method they find best. Is that how Hayes does it or does he for example use the padded assailant as an opportunity to go full contact yet using a specific technique?

 

[Deaf]

I don't know if you missed the previous post however, SKH does NOT teach or implement the "bulletman" training within his program. He uses the "red man" suit from macho which I have participated in during their testing procedures for rank when I was training with them

All that was done was the red man dude attacked the the student who was being tested for their next rank. Specific attacks were used to meet the specific requirments for the next rank the student was testing for.

That was all it was. I don't know if that is still the way it is being used today.

 

[Michael Stinson]

From Mr. Hayes:

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/peyton.php

In To-Shin Do we do utilize various training equipment as ONE tool to our training. Depending upon the level of training students may be asked to use gloves, chest protectors, head and face protection, arm/shin protection, etc. These are in no way used all the time...they are for one specific type of training.

I do know the Redman suit has been utilized in Dayton during graduations, and likely it is used at other times, but I personally have not seen it brought out all that often. The standard equipment as I mentioned above is far more common.

There are pros and cons to all types of training. One must understand the limitations of the various methods and what you are gaining/losing while utilizing each.

 

[Connovar]

It sounds like a reasonable way to provide some higher degrees of contact during the training process. Does the person in the redman suit resist in any significant manner during the testing process using the suits.

Another thing in bulletman training was the use of what termed "woofing"
The defender was always faced initially with various levels of verbal confrontation meant to confuse or intimidate prior to attack. Inappropriate response would always draw an attack. An appropriate response may or may not prevent an actual attack. Is something like this also being done with the redman suit?

 

[Michael Stinson]

Another thing in bulletman training was the use of what termed "woofing"
The defender was always faced initially with various levels of verbal confrontation meant to confuse or intimidate prior to attack. Inappropriate response would always draw an attack. An appropriate response may or may not prevent an actual attack. Is something like this also being done with the redman suit?

I can't speak for the redman suit exercises they do in Dayton as we personally don't have one in my school and I haven't really done much with them while visiting Dayton...but the idea of 'woofing' is certainly utilized. I encourage my students to play with all sorts of scenarios and methods of 'interviewing'.

'Hey...got the time?'
'Spare change mister?' - as he edges closer.
'Know the way to the bus stations?
Bump as they pass by one another.
'What are you looking at?!'
Etc.

I encourage the uke to sometimes walk away based on how the encounter develops. In some of the training I have done we have 'closed door' sessions where we pull out heavier language.

We often get loud...try to startle the uke as the attack occurs...lots of other fun stuff. Again these are more tools to play with...not the only methods of training.

 

[Connovar]

Sounds you are doing some good work there. Steve was one of the best instructors I had in over 35 years of MA and you are lucky you get train with him. Take care.

 

[Shogun]

I do not like the idea of a padded suit. while it can give you an idea of how hard you area capable of hitting, there is a major con.

when police get certified to carry a Tazer, or OC spray, they have to be on the recieving end so they know what it feels like, and what they are capable of doing. I beleive Taijutsu (and all martial arts) should be the same way. If you want to beat on something, buy a punching bag.

 

[Connovar]

Frankly I am surprised Shogun that you only advocate striking a bag etc and not a living moving human being. As you know in you BJJ and NHB the value of fighting a resisting opponent with full power strikes and throws greatly advances your skills. Some systems such as taijitsu dont usually spar full contact for a variety of their own reasons. It seems to me then, that use of fully padded suits (redmen, bulletmen, etc) cannot help but add another dimension to their training. As you know it can be harder to get a solid strike against a moving, resisting opponent than one that is standing still. Also the timing needed to hit hard against a moving target is also improved. Please explain your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Shogun]

Well, I was refering mainly to Taijutsu, but in NHB/MMA training, we put on gloves, and spar at normal speed. this is different, MUCH different than Taijutsu training. I dont think one High ranking Bujinkan guy on here will advocate Full contact sparring. most dont even advocate light sparring/randori. In BJJ, sparring is necessary for development of proper application. but only after you have learned the technique properly. Taijutsu contains a lot of subtle movements, strikes, holds that cannot be learned properly from hitting a bulky padded, moving object. NHB and BJJ work on larger joint locks, and basic striking patterns mostly. Those redman suits are a joke IMO. I think you should experience the pain of a technique so you can fully understand this.


KE

 

[Connovar]

I presently train in both boxing and BJJ so I know where you come from and I can appreciate it. However one of the reasons I ultimately left the bujinkan was because of experiencing high level (5th Dan) taijitsu practioners fumble when the technique was put to the text by an aggressive resisting partner. As such it seemed like some level of sparring with contact would be helpfull if they so desired it. For example there is no good reason they could not simply grapple full speed just like we do with BJJ. The rules for submission would be followed and like at some BJJ schools the more dangerous locks such as ankle locks would not be allowed untill they are experienced in the control.

Striking arts could be done the same with of course some targets removed for safety reasons. Redmen suits if they arent too cumbersome could allow some reasonable high contact btw participant and thus increase the "aliveness" of the training. The ability to successfullyapply a technique against a fully resisting partner is the best way I know of to deermine if you have mastered a technique.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

For example there is no good reason they could not simply grapple full speed just like we do with BJJ.

Yes there is.

The rules for submission would be followed...

Mm-hmm. We all choose our own goals I guess. Mine is not to follow rules.

Striking arts could be done the same with of course some targets removed for safety reasons.

That would mean watering down the training, not upgrading it.

The ability to successfullyapply a technique against a fully resisting partner is the best way I know of to deermine if you have mastered a technique.

It is also a very good way to see if one's focus in training is to master techniques, or concepts.

 

[Connovar]

Yes there is.

While I dont think it would be of much value to rehash the old nonsparring/sparring arguement here, with the mods permission I would like you to describe to me in detail why you cant do taijitsu technique full speed. This would be especially interesting because I use some of the taijitsu techniques I learned in exactly that way while doing BJJ

 

[stephen]

This would be especially interesting because I use some of the taijitsu techniques I learned in exactly that way while doing BJJ

Exactly!


/steve

 

[Cryozombie]

As always, as members you have permission to post whatever you like, PROVIDING it stays within the rules of martial talk AND it stays polite. I'm watching this thread, and I don't want to have to put my Mod hat on becuase it gets out of line.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm going to take the easy way out.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/sportmartialarts.html

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifedueling.htm

 

[Don Roley]

While I dont think it would be of much value to rehash the old nonsparring/sparring arguement here, with the mods permission I would like you to describe to me in detail why you cant do taijitsu technique full speed.

Well, if I could step in and deal with one issue....

I know that joint locks, etc can't be done at full speed and full force unless you want some damage done even if they are wearing one of these suits. Peytonn Quinn admits that his suits can't prevent damage from a seoi nage bending the elbow joint the opposite way it was designed- and his suits are the best in the business. But his stuff is still one more tool you can use to expand your training potential.

 

[Connovar]

My thoughts are that a bulletman or redman suit used with Taijitsu training may offer some middle ground btw sport full contact sparring and light contact sparring. I only suggest since I trained in the both the taijitsu world and the MMA world and can see some merits of both sides positions regarding whether or not to spar to advance skills. I obviously might be biased because I have always liked to spar in one form or another.

The actual bulletman fighting methods actually a utilize what is very similiar to an ichimonji no kamae when facing off against an aggressor. However the hands are directed palm forword as postural signal for the aggressor to keep back. Initial strikes against the head then utilize palm strikes, eye strikes with the thumb(similiar) to the boshi(sp) utilized in taijitsu and elbows. Kicks were primarily shin or instep kicks to the groin and knees to groin and lower abdomen. So in some aspects it has a lot of similarity to taijitsu and works very well against aggressive hard charging opponents.

 

[shinbushi]

I dont think one High ranking Bujinkan guy on here will advocate Full contact sparring. most dont even advocate light sparring/randori.
KE

Actually there are a few :wink:

 

[Michael Stinson]

Actually there are a few :wink:

Heh...I was thinking about you, but didn't want to bring you into it

 

[Shogun]

Oh yeah...I forgot about you....sorry....ha haha.

I like Randori, but the way it should be done is much different than "sparring". look at two aikidoka perform Randori. this is the way i like it. kinda like in Seago-san's video clip.