Bulletmen and Steve Hayes

[rutherford]

Connovar, first you've taken this thread way off topic. Whether there is sparring in the Bujinkan and whether there should be sparring in the Bujinkan is not really appropriate for the Toshindo forum. There are several very long threads on sparring in the Bujinkan, if you want to revive one of them go ahead.

However, you'll find that all of them are filled with personal perspectives, as each has their own take on the art. Some dojo do more sparring than others. The Bujinkan Chicago Dojo comes to mind, as well as Shihan David Dow's Bujinkan Anko Dojo (shinbushi, posted to this thread but ignored by you).

Some dojo do more sport fighting than others. Shihan Greg Kowalski's career as a bare-knuckle and point-karate tournament fighter comes to mind.

Second, your comments about "demonstration art" are insulting and show your personal agenda. You're making sweeping generalizations about an art which you left (assuming we believe you were ever a member). You're spreading disinformation and trolling, plain and simple.

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a combat art and battlefield tested. There are Bujinkan members who have used their skills for survival, and there are Bujinkan members around the world at war right now.

Connovar, good luck with your training. I hope you never need to use it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If it wasn't for this being an internet forum, I'd say Connovar is arguing merely because he likes the sound of his own voice. I'm going to keep away from this debate until he stops making sweeping biased generalisations and starts responding to the arguments of myself and others. Even then, I'd prefer if we could take it in the more appropriately named thread.

 

[Connovar]

Actually the title is regarding bullet men. Bulletmen are used as part of sparring training. I was hoping that Steve Hayes was perhaps incorporating some sort of live training in his dojo. It doesnt sound like anyone here has much experience with that. I left the bujinkan because after many years of training and watching results from that training, it became clear the bujinkan system is a very poor system for training individuals to fight. Its a great system if you want to learn techniques but does not do well at giving individuals the skills to apply them in real life. There are 3 valid reasons not to spar. 1)being physically unable, 2)dojo insurance issues 3)fear of getting hurt which translates into less people training and less income for the school.The use of bulletmen and/red man suite would help with no 2 and no3 and perhaps even no 1.

If this is a combat art, when was the last time any of you were in combat?

 

[Cryozombie]

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[Shogun]

I still am not liking the idea of a "pillow" suit in which people beat on. it reminds me of a kid's class in Karate where they take turns hitting the bag.

 

[Tgace]

Body padding is only a tool that is useful to demonstrate specific points...much like simunitions is a great tool in gun circles. However you arent going to train a new shooter entirely with simunitions weapons.

I dont think anybody is saying the bulletman suit is being used for ALL training.

 

[Connovar]

I have no experience with redman suits, but from first hand knowledge I can say the trained bulletman dont let you just hit on them. Essentially they come in very hard and very fast. They will attempt to tie you up and take you to the ground and are actively trying to counter you techniques. The defender is actively trying to land hard accurate shots to sensitive spots on the attacker which of course are padded. For example the groin is heavily padded enough to take full power kicks to the groin. You can do full power strikes to the eyes etc. And these guys move fast. I see this as a method of getting some of the advantages of sparring without all the injuries.As an addition to sparring it allows to attack targets you normally coudnt due to safety restrictions. Therefore it could be usefull for those systems that dont spar and yet also be valuable to systems that do.

 

[Tgace]

Agreed..bulletman/redman suits are extremely useful. Regardless of the "you should know what it feels like" philosophy, you just cannot deal out and should not take that kind of damage on a regular training basis....

 

[r erman]

Lot of different topics being discussed in this thread...

As far as body suit training goes, there are some awesome applications for using it. It is not like kids karate...Look at a RMCAT video. Or, maybe better, Tony Blauer and his HIGH GEAR(his suit) training. You cannot do a lot of what they do without it. Period.

As far as sparring. There are major benefits. I've concluded--after many threads here and on other boards--that it is no longer worth the time to argue why isolated or not-so-isolated sparring is an important part of training. If people feel that they are consistently generating results with the way they are training, then more power to them. I have a different training paradigm, based on my experience.

One thing that was touched on that hasn't really been answered was the question about sparring in Japan. Yes, warriors in Japan sparred. Non-lethal duels between swordsmen were common. Many samurai practiced sumo to add a non-cooperative base and augment their jujutsu/taijutsu. In the Edo-period, taryu jiai was common amongst different jujutsu schools. In the Meiji era this was common as well--the founder of Judo studied two systems of jujutsu that had randori as an important part of the training along with kata geiko.

One of my favorite historical quotes, from around the year 1700, in a Kenjutsu treatise called Heiho Zakki by Yamada Heizaemon:

in order to really reach an understanding of mortal combat it is necessary for both adepts to don men, kote, and other pieces of protective equipment and forge oneself through the confusion encountered by engaging in daring unrestricted training.

 

[Cryozombie]

I have no experience with redman suits, but from first hand knowledge I can say the trained bulletman dont let you just hit on them. Essentially they come in very hard and very fast. They will attempt to tie you up and take you to the ground and are actively trying to counter you techniques. The defender is actively trying to land hard accurate shots to sensitive spots on the attacker which of course are padded. For example the groin is heavily padded enough to take full power kicks to the groin. You can do full power strikes to the eyes etc. And these guys move fast. I see this as a method of getting some of the advantages of sparring without all the injuries.As an addition to sparring it allows to attack targets you normally coudnt due to safety restrictions. Therefore it could be usefull for those systems that dont spar and yet also be valuable to systems that do.

Im curious to know, if they are that heavily padded, and you are landing blows that they can shrug off, how do they react realistically to them? if they are coming full force and you whack em in the... family jewels... do they react like they were popped in them, or keep coming? What about shots to kusho points designed to open a larger target or facilitate a throw, how do these suits work in those situations, or are they best for, well... standard, Blocking, punching and kicking?

 

[Shogun]

Thats almost pretty much what I was gonna say. If the idea is to hit vital areas and sensitive areas, and they are padded, than there is no reaction or response from the attacker. This makes this type of training more useless. in the beginning, I was only against it slightly, but now that you are SUPPOSED to hit padded vital areas, with no response, than I just dont get it.

Having done a little Kali, I know that the some of the systems (ex; sayoc) use "flinching" or automatic responses to create openings. Budo Taijutsu does this too. please explain the purpose of these suits, because I am a little confused.

 

[Connovar]

Its dangerous to assume an attacker will respond to an attack in a specific manner. People dont always respond to pain like you would expect. Personally I was once attacked and the first strike was a knee to the groin hard enough to raise me on my toes. I was then thrown the hood of a car and my head was slammed repeatedly backwards onto the hood.I should have been done at that time but all I remember was how pissed I was that the guy had kneed me in the balls. Without further details I walked away winning that one. The point of that story is if you today kicked me in the balls and bounced my head a few times off a car hood I would definitely be out of it, but the emotional tone allowed the body to override the pain response.

As such the bulletmen are only to react to mulitple powerfull blow to an open area before responding. In this manner the defender is taught to proceed with their defense in a very aggressive manner. It is expected that your attacker will probably be high on drugs and/or in a psychotic state and as such they will be resistant to the strikes you throw and not to be surprised about having to continue to aggressively continue the defense.

 

[arnisador]

Its dangerous to assume an attacker will respond to an attack in a specific manner.

Agreed. Some arts assume this and I think it's bad unless one explores all reasonable oucomes.

 

[Cryozombie]

Its dangerous to assume an attacker will respond to an attack in a specific manner.

I understand this, and to a certain extent I agree with it... however...

If you lose a certain amount of assumption you may as well forget training techniques alltogether.

If you dont Assume kicking someones legs out from under them will make them fall, why learn to kick someones legs out from under them? If you dont assume striking someone in the face will make them react to getting struck in the face, why learn to punch?

I would tend to believe, from past experience, that everyone reacts differently, and yes, you will run into people who are not going to respond the way you anticipate, however... this is why your toolbox of techniques does not contain 1 single technique honed to perfection, but many many many tools you can put to use if one should fail you. I would tend to believe that 90% of people, whom if struck in the face with a proper, hard solid blow, will react to that blow, and for the 10% who dont, you have the leg sweep.

So, again, if the Bulletmen are not going to react to a hit, because you cannot assume someone would, why bother training with them? All it will teach you, based on that assumption, is that you will lose a fight.

 

[Tgace]

Being able to whack away at somebody w/o fear of injuring him or you is a good thing...I dont see any problem with it at all, unless its done to the point where technique is being neglected. Working with somebody in an environment where the opponent never gives you any resistance is more a recipe for failure than training with this stuff IMO.

Some people have never given or recieved a full force leg sweep against a moving opponent.....

 

[Michael Stinson]

In reading over this thread it appears some of you really do not understand the point of the bulletman training that is done at RMCat or even how it is done. The following is an article that describes one individuals experiences with it:

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/rmcat.htm

In particular to answer some assumptions placed into this thread:

The bullet men do not drop or give up until they feel a certain number of techniques landed with enough power [through their padded suits] to incapacitate a real opponent. Also, the level of attack (against a student) is measured on a student-by-student basis, depending on, size, weight, sex, strength, etc.

All in all if you don't like this type of training cool...don't do it. If you do, great, do it.

 

[Cruentus]

My first time hearing about padded suit training was from Mr. Quinn's book "Real Fighting." I will say that at the time, having been mostly focused the training methods in my art(s), I was very impressed by the book, and by the method. I desperately wanted to try padded suit training to see it's strenghts and limitations, as it appeared to be a sound training tool.

What I found from other martial artists at the time was a different story; a lot of naysaying from people who had no experience with padded suit training, or had instructors who didn't advocate padded suit training. The attitude boils down in its simplicity too: "because we don't do it, then it must be inferior."

I find this to be the trend in all martial arts. Many people seem to basically be expressing, "because we don't do it, then it must be inferior..." Obviously, though, this sort of thinking is not condusive of maximizing the effectiveness your combat training.

The mistake we run into here is in thinking that our training fully mirrors reality. You want your training to be as applicable to reality (and increasing your skill for reality) as you can, but because by nature it IS TRAINING and not the real thing, you will run into limitations. I do not feel that there is 1 best way. And, you do yourself a disservice if you think that your full contact sparring, or aikido randori, or padded suit training, or taijutsu practice, or whatever, is EXACTLY what what real combat is like (or 'the best' substitute thereof). For those many martial artists who exhibit this narrow way of thinking, I hope for your safety that you never actually have to find out where your training is lacking during the unforgiving environment of a real encounter.

Every training method has limitations, thus why it is called training rather then combat or fighting. No matter which method(s) you choose, a big contributer in being prepared for a real encounter is not in just in the effectiveness of the method, but in understanding where the method is weak so that you can be prepared for necessary adjustments needed for combat.

That all said, padded suit training does have limitations, just as every training method does.

However, it has some great advantages as well that other methods have difficulty in matching. I am proud to say that I am an associate instructor in a group that frequently incorporates padded suit training (livesafeacademy), and I have even been in the suit as the assailent myself. What a great experience.

I say that padded suit training, when done right, is a great method. Everyone should try it at least once, regardless of your martial discipline.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Also, just to clear up a misconception:

As a padded instructor, you can gauge how hard the student is striking, where they are striking, and how effective they are hitting to be able to respond accordingly. If you are a good role player, you can make the scenario training very realistic.

Paul

 

[Don Roley]

The mistake we run into here is in thinking that our training fully mirrors reality. You want your training to be as applicable to reality (and increasing your skill for reality) as you can, but because by nature it IS TRAINING and not the real thing, you will run into limitations. I do not feel that there is 1 best way. And, you do yourself a disservice if you think that your full contact sparring, or aikido randori, or padded suit training, or taijutsu practice, or whatever, is EXACTLY what what real combat is like (or 'the best' substitute thereof). For those many martial artists who exhibit this narrow way of thinking, I hope for your safety that you never actually have to find out where your training is lacking during the unforgiving environment of a real encounter.

Have you read Bob Orlando? He has a great quote somewhere in one of his books. It goes, "All training is a simulation of training. The key word is
simulation."

I too like Peytonn Quinn and trained under him very, very briefly. I was wondering about something. When I checked the link to the red man suits there was a quote by SKH in the business package section. That package has an instructor suit and several students suits. Quinn has the students go through their stuff without any sort of armor. Does Toshindo differ in this aspect?

And if I read post #22 correctly, it would seem that this is not really used for training, but for testing. Is that correct? Quinn does not do it that way. I am rather disapointed if it is true.

 

[Cryozombie]

As a padded instructor, you can gauge how hard the student is striking, where they are striking, and how effective they are hitting to be able to respond accordingly.

Paul, Ah-ha. You hit on the heart of my problem with this type of training, and, after reading this I understand better where MY hangup comes from...

can I amend this Quote???

If you are a GOOD instructor, you can guage...

Here is my experience with this "type" of training, take it for what it is worth... to all of you probably nothing... Back when I studied Hapkido we had somthing like a redman suit we used for the shcools "Womens Self Defense Program"... The "bad Guy" would put it on and attack women, and they responded.

One of the Blackbelts decided this was a good tool for his "Street Sparring" class. (Different from the point sparring class, because you could strike the head, legs and use sweeps) He would put it on and you would "fight". He always... ALWAYS... kicked the snot out of me, and everyone else, because he ignored EVERYTHING we threw at him. My blows to the suit were totaly innefective in ways that sparring people out of the suit were not... becuase the suit was armor for him, more than a training tool for us. It used to frustrate me, because it made me feel like i couldnt DO anything. I would equate it to imagining someone pissed you off, but they were in their car, so all you could do was beat your fist on their windshied while they laughed at you.