Bulletmen and Steve Hayes

[Connovar]

Thats right it is different because the type of training that is needed to truly learn a technique is one that is alive. Aikido sparring is still just a variation of dead training, but it is fun to do and fun to watch.

 

[Shogun]

it is fun to do and fun to watch

Darn tootin!

 

[arnisador]

Agreed--Aikido randori sure sends bodies flying far and wide!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Dead training comes out of dead minds. No amount of sparring will take care of those.

 

[Connovar]

Dead training comes out of dead minds. No amount of sparring will take care of those.

Since 99% of bujinkan training is dead are you sure you still want to say that?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That is your definition. Not all agree, certainly not those with insight in the aforementioned system.

 

[Don Roley]

Since 99% of bujinkan training is dead are you sure you still want to say that?

That may be your experience with the training from the old days under Hayes influence, but it is not really what I see where I am. It all depends on your definition of "dead." If you mean, "non-sport" then you are probably right. But slowly the idea that kata training is not just going through a dance with your partner is spreading out from Japan.

 

[Connovar]

Its okay that the training is by definition primarily dead training, since the intent of the system is not to create fighters. The system is designed for people who want to recreate historic japanese warefare much like the SCA recreates medieval warfare. That is okay. Its just not designed to create fighters for the modern environment. Bye the way I trained in the system for eleven years and taught for five years so I am reasonably knowledgable in the system.

 

[Deaf]

Dead training? Recreate historic japanese warfare? Not designed to create fighters for the modern environment?

Bold statements there and to be honest with you, totally full of crap. If that is the case then please explain to me why soo many law enforcement, military, personal security agencies etc. train within the system and highly regard it as a very effective system?

~Deaf~

Oh and 1 quick question... 11 years in what system? SKH's system or actual bujinkan? Good thing you quit teaching huh!

Its okay that the training is by definition primarily dead training, since the intent of the system is not to create fighters. The system is designed for people who want to recreate historic japanese warefare much like the SCA recreates medieval warfare. That is okay. Its just not designed to create fighters for the modern environment. Bye the way I trained in the system for eleven years and taught for five years so I am reasonably knowledgable in the system.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Its okay that the training is by definition primarily dead training, since the intent of the system is not to create fighters. The system is designed for people who want to recreate historic japanese warefare much like the SCA recreates medieval warfare. That is okay. Its just not designed to create fighters for the modern environment. Bye the way I trained in the system for eleven years and taught for five years so I am reasonably knowledgable in the system.

From this I can only rule out that you haven't bothered to read earlier posts in this thread and that you lack understanding of taijutsu training. It almost sounds like you are trying to tell us, the practitioners of said system, how we should be training in order to fit in with your biased view of the Bujinkan?

 

[Kreth]

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====================

 

[rutherford]

It wasn't obvious until the last post by Connovar but it should be now.

:feedtroll

 

[Connovar]

Let me put it this way. One of the things I enjoyed the most from the bujinkan was using the Bo and in my own subjective opinion I was reasonably good with it. Its a lot of fun to train with. I enjoyed training the traditional kata that utilized it. However under no circumstance would I consider myself a bo fighter (if there was such a term). The reason is simple. I have never gone full free sparring moderate to heavy contact with a bo where my objective was to defeat my opponent while he is doing the same to me. Thus I have no true fighting experience with the bo.

Alive training requires you to go full contact full speed sparring fighting (whatever term you want) to demonstate you can pull off the techniques under the dynamics of a fight. I have not seen bujinkan members do that but thats ok, they are not trying to be fighters. The only objective evidence I have seen is that bujinkan students can perform traditional taijitsu techniques within the rigid guidelines of two man kata, or pehaps multiperson demonstrations where the individuals are not trying to defeat each other.If you have video clips of exceptions I would like to see them.

I have never seen Hatsumi, Hoban etc demonstrate such ability either. They are wonderfull at demonstating certain techniques and for that they should be commended, but they have never demonstrated their ability to fight at least as far as I know. (Again, if anyone has an video or even documented written proof I would appreciate your sharing it.

This is my basis for describing the bujinkan as a demonstration system and not a fighting system.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Alive training requires you to go full contact full speed sparring fighting (whatever term you want) to demonstate you can pull off the techniques under the dynamics of a fight. I have not seen bujinkan members do that but thats ok, they are not trying to be fighters.

That's right. Not fighters. Warriors.

Furthermore, alive training as we see it in the Bujinkan, is something that requires uke and tori to train and attack with intent and the correct distance to actually do damage. It requires that the individuals themselves find the correct dynamics to deploy - hence the oft heard phrase, "this stuff cannot be taught, it has to be discovered for yourself".

Then there is the issue of sparring with weapons. From my perspective, kata training or, if you prefer "combat scenarios" with heightened intensity and lesser margins of error than usual, is far closer to the real thing than regular sparring matches. Because sparring, by it's very nature, fosters a give-and-take mentality. And with weapons such as bo staffs and swords, if you mess up during the initial contact, you cannot and should not count on being able to correct that mistake. There is no room for a sparring mentality when just being touched will harm you. And being touched multiple times will kill you. The intent and focus of what you're doing HAS to reflect the degree of danger inherent in the situation.

I have never seen Hatsumi, Hoban etc demonstrate such ability either. They are wonderfull at demonstating certain techniques and for that they should be commended, but they have never demonstrated their ability to fight at least as far as I know. (Again, if anyone has an video or even documented written proof I would appreciate your sharing it.

Seek up the aforementioned individuals and attack them for yourself. In the case of uncle H, he has clearly stated at taikais and elsewhere that he accepts and deals with whatever attack you feel like using against him.

You really should have been training a bit more before you state things like this...

 

[Connovar]

Hmmmm a warrior. What wars have you fought in. To many claim the title of warrior when they have never fought in a war. I dont claim it because I have never fought in a war. I have fought many times, but never in a war.

The best way to learn to swim is to swim. You come to me and say you can swim. So I say there is a pool and show me. Instead you say, we have practiced swimming strokes in the shallow end and you even demonstrate to me some nice strokes such as the crawl, side stroke etch while you are standing the shallow end. Would you call yourself a swimmer at this time. I certainly hope not. However if you could show yourself going back and forth across a deep pool you would then be a swimmer.

Its the same way with fighting. The best way to learn to fight is fight. Its been proven that way in virtually all the combative arts whether it is fencing, boxing, wrestling, judo etc etc. You learn some techniques and you practice them and then try them out by fighting. I hadnt seen much of any fighting in the bujinkan during my years with them, but they do nicely demonstrate technique.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Unfortunately, with the swimming analogy, people tend to confuse their backyard pool with the ocean.

:CTF:

 

[Connovar]

Its certainly better to swim in a pool before you try tackling the ocean!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It is not, however, the same thing. Fooling oneself into thinking that they are is a dangerous mistake.

And before we go any further, I might as well rehash this old issue as well: it is well known that the average Bujinkan practitioner has a lousy understanding of kihon compared to what is preferable. Before that issue is solved, we have other things to worry about than how and when we should employ sparring as a regular addition to training.

 

[MisterMike]

This is my basis for describing the bujinkan as a demonstration system and not a fighting system

I'm thinking that maybe you are just new to the martial arts in general, making statements like this. I've never heard of a demonstration system. It could be your own term, or one that helps you differentiate -DO styles from -JUTSU styles, but it just isn't commonly used in conversation.

The best way to learn to fight is fight

Not really. The best way to die is to get into a lot of fights.

Its been proven that way in virtually all the combative arts whether it is fencing, boxing, wrestling, judo etc etc.

Fencing, boxing, wrestling and judo are not combative arts. Most have been turned into sports.

I'm not going to nitpick everything you've put down, but would rather you look a little longer and a lot deeper at the Bujinkan and martial arts in general before making any final statements on their application to "real" combat, whatever form it takes.

 

[Connovar]

Demonstration art is a much better way to describe it then calling it a fighting art, simply because the practioners dont fight. That is unless you can show evidence that they truly do fight. As I said earlier I spent 11 years in the bujinkan and never once saw anyone fight. Lots of kata's etc, lots of talking about what ifs, but never fighting.

I am not dead so I guess fighting isnt as deadly as you think it is. This has included competitive and street fights. Many martial arts have difficulty making the transition from dojo to street, but at least most of them fight. I seriously doubt the ancient japanese never sparred in their training. Does it say in the scrolls that they should never spar?