Boy dies from headlock. Are you prepared?

[RTKDCMB]

You can practice headlocks and Judo throws constantly at maximum power without doing much damage. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.

Actually you can, that's why some arts are predominantly non-contact.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't think you get that there are degrees of lethal and so there are degrees in which they are allowed to be trained.

There is only one degree of lethal - lethal. You can't partially kill someone.

 

[ballen0351]

I guess all this Judo talk depends on where you train. Where I was going we had classes that totally focused on comps and the rules and we had the "best of Judo" as my teacher would say. All the illegal stuff and self defense stuff. However I will say even the comp stuff would still be deadly if you preformed it outside of the nice padded dojo. So I'm not sure where anyone gets that judo is less lethal I see it as just more cautious. If I did the same throw same speed same power same intent once on the mat and once on the concrete. One is far more dangerous then the other but it's the same throw

 

[Dirty Dog]

There is only one degree of lethal - lethal. You can't partially kill someone.

In all fairness, I suspect he meant that there are degrees of lethality, not lethal.

 

[Hanzou]

Actually you can, that's why some arts are predominantly non-contact.

Its impossible to perform those attacks at maximum force without making contact.

 

[Buka]

There is only one degree of lethal - lethal. You can't partially kill someone.

Not in fighting, no. But then there's marriage.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Its impossible to perform those attacks at maximum force without making contact.

Not true:

F = ma

Any mass accelerated produces a force no matter whether it hits something or not.

 

[elder999]

"Living the life of a samurai"?!?! Dude, do you even hear yourself?!?! Who on earth has said anything of the kind! All that's been mentioned is the training methods being for lethal usage, but not being lethal in training… surely, surely you can see the distinction???

View attachment $1391439_437452183043841_308130083_n.jpg
:lfao:

 

[Hanzou]

Not true:

F = ma

Any mass accelerated produces a force no matter whether it hits something or not.

So are you actually measuring that force, or are you assuming it? You have no idea how hard you're hitting something unless you're actually hitting something.

 

[elder999]

So are you actually measuring that force, or are you assuming it? You have no idea how hard you're hitting something unless you're actually hitting something.

That's a fair way for a non-technically minded person to think, but it's wrong.

As a physicist and engineer, I'm telling you, 'cause the laws of physics don't change-and while all of that force may not become sensible-that is to say, force that is transferred-it is generated, and the potential is there for a great deal of it to be.....by adhering to form, striking with the methods developed and described over centuries, one can achieve that kind of efficiency....and there are other targets for measuring transference of force besides other human beings.

So your thinking in this is faulty, but it's not your fault....:lol:

 

[Hanzou]

View attachment 19000
:lfao:

So much for "Friendly Martial arts talk".

 

[Buka]

Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion or not - I was hit in the throat, intentionally, in competition. A really hard overhand right, (out of bounds, to boot) I spent 36 hours in the hospital with a tube down my throat. It was a teaching hospital and the head Doc brought in a group of med students to see me and an ultrasound image. Said, "this is the only time you'll see this on a live patient." That really warmed the cockles of my heart.

All I can tell you is a hard throat strike really hurts and tends to drop you flat. Partially from the blow itself, partially from lack of breath. But mostly by abject fear of "Uh oh, I'm screwed."

 

[elder999]

So much for "Friendly Martial arts talk".

What, your friends don't make fun of you?

You probably don't have any then.......:lfao:

 

[RTKDCMB]

So are you actually measuring that force, or are you assuming it? You have no idea how hard you're hitting something unless you're actually hitting something.

You measure the force on pads, in breaking and simple physics. You don't have to punch someone in the face to know you can punch hard.

 

[elder999]

You measure the force on pads, in breaking and simple physics. You don't have to punch someone in the face to know you can punch hard.

You know, pretty much what he said...:lfao:

 

[Hanzou]

You measure the force on pads, in breaking and simple physics. You don't have to punch someone in the face to know you can punch hard.

You said "whether you hit something or not", and I said you can't tell how hard you hit if you're not hitting something. Hitting pads is hitting something, and it is contact.

 

[Hanzou]

What, your friends don't make fun of you?

You probably don't have any then.......:lfao:

I don't call my friends "dense" or "idiots" if they don't agree with me.:uhoh:

 

[ballen0351]

You said "whether you hit something or not", and I said you can't tell how hard you hit if you're not hitting something. Hitting pads is hitting something, and it is contact.

You don't need to hit something every time. There is more then one way to train. If I use correct technique speed and power and punch a bag then step back one foot use the same technique speed and power I can be pretty sure the force is around the same even though I didn't hit anythimg. Do you snap someone's arm everyone you apply in arm bar? If not how do you know you have enough force to do it? In fact if you have never snapped an arm how do you even know you can?

 

[drop bear]

I honestly have trouble believing you're being this dense… I really do… I mean, I know I gave you the nickname of Dogberry recently, but you really don't have to try this hard to live up to it…



You got evidence. You actually got better evidence, via confirmatory statements and supporting references, than you-tube clips provide. That you are too lacking in understanding or grounding to understand it doesn't change the fact that you got the evidence, you understand… I'll review it and highlight what you were given in a moment…



Again, you do know what koryu are, don't you…? Cause, I gotta say… that's exactly what we have.



No, it's about understanding. You don't have any.

Now, back to what Elder already told you…



So let's look at that.

Elder stated, quite clearly, that he has trained in Koryu (the actual arts trained by the samurai), has seen the densho (transmission books, records of both the arts and the training methods, and more) from some of these traditions, and trained in the techniques in part of their original (application) context, to see how they are meant to be applied. In addition to that, I train in Koryu (a couple of different ryu-ha), and can tell you just how these things are done now, how they were done then, what is the same, and what has changed, in a range of different systems.



None of what you were told has come from any imagination, son. In fact, the only argument here that has come from anyone's imagination is this one from you.



There's a difference between there not being any proof, and your abject denial of the evidence you are presented with simply on the basis that you have absolutely no clue what on earth you're talking about.



"Living the life of a samurai"?!?! Dude, do you even hear yourself?!?! Who on earth has said anything of the kind! All that's been mentioned is the training methods being for lethal usage, but not being lethal in training… surely, surely you can see the distinction???

Seriously. Stop trying to argue something you know absolutely nothing about with people who actually do what you're trying to comment on. Nothing in your posts is based in anything close to reality… which makes your accusation that both Elder's and my comments are from our "imagination" rather ironic… and would be funny, if it wasn't so sad that you actually think like that. Unless you're just trolling, yeah? I mean, after your recent refutation of my arguments being "Nope, sorry, you're wrong" with absolutely no back up, I'm starting to think that that might be it… care to refute?



Yeah… right… cause, what you want when training people, is for the trainees to kill each other… are you kidding?!?!



No, Dogberry, we're saying that we have an education and understanding of the topic. You really, really should come to grips with that.



Sadly Elder, I feel that he could be… unless, as I said, this is an elaborate troll job…



Er… did you miss a word there? Or are you saying that yes, there is a provable history outside of Elder's imagination (I really don't know where you got that ludicrous idea from in the first place, though… nothing has been from inside Elders imagination from the get-go)… so it's not valid? Er… isn't that the opposite of… well… itself? And your point? At the same time?



What's not valid?!?! Really, what's your argument here? I mean, you can fight with intent and kill people even without specifically "lethal" methods, you know… you can fight without "intent" and kill people the same way… with or without such "lethal" techniques… or you can train in lethal methods without killing people…

You're not making any sense.



Did you really miss the point of Elders comments about his co-workers? There wasn't anything to do with having "issues" with them…



Yeah… look, I gotta say, there are some major issues with the history provided there, specifically to the other methods of jujutsu (leaving off the spelling issues there for the minute)… with much of the "history" given there being not really that accurate…

But to the aspect you've highlighted, you might note that the "dangerous techniques" were removed for competition… they were retained for seniors in other forms including kata… so…?



And, again, you completely miss what you're being told… Elder was employing sarcastic exaggeration to demonstrate the flaws with your argument… surely you saw that, yeah? You didn't really think he was suggesting bringing a claw hammer into a Judo contest? Cause really, if you did, I have no way to comprehend how you see the world…

But, to take this back to the idea of this thread and argument about what makes something lethal or not… looking at the idea of technique versus intent… when I train, it is always with lethal intent (depending on the system… I'm talking my Koryu material here). On both sides. If I'm uchidachi, or shidachi, my aim is the death of my opponent. It can't be anything less than that, or there's really no point training it. And you know something? I've never killed anyone (literally… I have symbolically countless times over) in training at all. Why not? Well, there are safety measures in place… training methodology and equipment… but the point is that you can train with lethal intent and not kill… and you can kill without lethal intent… and both of those are true regardless of the technique, to a great degree.

So.................









No proof huh?

Fair enough.
( this is why I can't have a sensible conversation with you)

 

[ballen0351]

So.................









No proof huh?

Fair enough.

So..............









No reading comprehension
Fair enough