Boy dies from headlock. Are you prepared?

[Hanzou]

Ok let me get this straight is it the headlock that is deadly or what it can turn into?

If the headlock is the gateway to more dangerous things, doesn't that make the headlock in of itself dangerous as well?

 

[elder999]

If the headlock is the gateway to more dangerous things, doesn't that make the headlock in of itself dangerous as well?

That's a stretch: it's the opposable thumb that made us apex predators, in part. If the thumb is the gateway to the club, doesn't that make the thumb in and of itself dangerous as well?

 

[Hanzou]

That's a stretch: it's the opposable thumb that made us apex predators, in part. If the thumb is the gateway to the club, doesn't that make the thumb in and of itself dangerous as well?

Well the thumb has far more uses than just holding a club, or performing violent acts.

The headlock on the other hand is only used for violent purposes.

 

[elder999]

Well the thumb has far more uses than just holding a club, or performing violent acts.

The headlock on the other hand is only used for violent purposes.

On the other hand, in and of itself it's......non-lethal, in the way you and others speak of much of judo-if the headlock is done properly, and is maintained, it's just that: a headlock, a restraint with no lethal consequences, in most cases. I mean, someone as strong as I am-or, at least, as strong as I was at 33-might be able to crack a skull with a headlock, but it would be a stronger than average person, and a weaker than average skull.

Otherwise, it's simply an immobilization-like the thumb, in and of itself, relatively harmless....

 

[Hanzou]

On the other hand, in and of itself it's......non-lethal, in the way you and others speak of much of judo-if the headlock is done properly, and is maintained, it's just that: a headlock, a restraint with no lethal consequences, in most cases. I mean, someone as strong as I am-or, at least, as strong as I was at 33-might be able to crack a skull with a headlock, but it would be a stronger than average person, and a weaker than average skull.

Otherwise, it's simply an immobilization-like the thumb, in and of itself, relatively harmless....

Judo throws are potentially lethal, just like the headlock is.

The difference is that you can place someone in the headlock without the intent on harming them. You can throw someone without the intent to harm them. When you punch someone in the throat, or kick someone in the groin, your only intent is harm.

You can practice headlocks and Judo throws constantly at maximum power without doing much damage. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.

 

[elder999]

The difference is that you can place someone in the headlock without the intent on harming them. You can throw someone without the intent to harm them. When you punch someone in the throat, or kick someone in the groin, your only intent is harm.

The difference then, is intent, isn't it? The throws, blows-all of it-aren't "lethal" in and of themselves, or, for that matter, non-lethal, any more than a thumb....or a fountain pen.....

It's human beings,-intent, and the will to carry it out, that are lethal.

.

. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.

That's funny, I'm pretty sure that I've practiced those very things, at maximum power, and without doing any damage, since my teen years-40 years, now..... In fact, I'm certain that others have done it for hundreds of years.....:lfao:

 

[jks9199]

Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.

So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.

So it is about believing not about understanding.

Some of them train in systems that have been handed down quite faithfully from those days. Others have researched historical records that documented it. I mean, we're really not talking all that long in history. Do you think that there are folks with a good idea how the soldiers in the Civil War, or American Revolutionary eras trained? Or how a knight was trained during the Middle Ages? You don't think that people in other hemispheres could make records?

Of course, they don't have YouTube videos of samurai training... so I guess there's no proof.

 

[jks9199]

Judo throws are potentially lethal, just like the headlock is.

The difference is that you can place someone in the headlock without the intent on harming them. You can throw someone without the intent to harm them. When you punch someone in the throat, or kick someone in the groin, your only intent is harm.

You can practice headlocks and Judo throws constantly at maximum power without doing much damage. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.

Well, I'd argue that it is possible to punch someone in the throat, etc. without intent to do serious and permanent harm. It's certainly possible to punch people and not do serious harm by carefully selecting your target. Instead of punch the throat -- punch the chest. Which -- gee -- seems a lot like doing a choke and releasing it, or stopping at submission on an armbar rather than breaking it.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, I'd argue that it is possible to punch someone in the throat, etc. without intent to do serious and permanent harm. It's certainly possible to punch people and not do serious harm by carefully selecting your target. Instead of punch the throat -- punch the chest. Which -- gee -- seems a lot like doing a choke and releasing it, or stopping at submission on an armbar rather than breaking it.

Well if you're punching someone in the chest, you're not punching them in the throat.

I'm doing an armbar whether I break the arm or not. I'm doing a Triangle choke whether I release the choke or not.

 

[seasoned]

As you sit at your keyboard try an experiment. Take your right or left hand and hit your own throat. Start light and add a little bit each time. Nothing lethal there because there is no intent, as you go back to typing. All strikes have degrees of control, even strikes to the throat. This is old school, if you weren't there or from that era then it would mean nothing....A strike to the throat can be as lethal as you want it to be.

 

[elder999]

As you sit at your keyboard try an experiment. Take your right or left hand and hit your own throat. Start light and add a little bit each time. Nothing lethal there because there is no intent, as you go back to typing. All strikes have degrees of control, even strikes to the throat. This is old school, if you weren't there or from that era then it would mean nothing....A strike to the throat can be as lethal as you want it to be.

I can remember, as a 15 year old brown belt years ago, being put in my place (for being a little rambunctious and rough myself) by an older black belt with a kick that "love-tapped" my esophagus....:lfao:

Really "tough love." :lfao:

 

[drop bear]

Some of them train in systems that have been handed down quite faithfully from those days. Others have researched historical records that documented it. I mean, we're really not talking all that long in history. Do you think that there are folks with a good idea how the soldiers in the Civil War, or American Revolutionary eras trained? Or how a knight was trained during the Middle Ages? You don't think that people in other hemispheres could make records?

Of course, they don't have YouTube videos of samurai training... so I guess there's no proof.

Actually I was asking for anything outside their imagination.

So I guess there's no proof.

But yeah I am sure these guys are living the life of a samurai. And certainly not some well let's call it a historical recreationist version. I mean this is elders argument that he is so in tune with samurai training that he can tell if they were chunking people around in dangerous arm bars and neck cranks.

They either did fight to the death as part of their training or they didn't I am not assuming one way or the other.

As I said I don't know I wasn't there. Maybe elder and Chris were. They certainly are trying to come across that way.

 

[drop bear]

The difference then, is intent, isn't it? The throws, blows-all of it-aren't "lethal" in and of themselves, or, for that matter, non-lethal, any more than a thumb....or a fountain pen.....

It's human beings,-intent, and the will to carry it out, that are lethal.



That's funny, I'm pretty sure that I've practiced those very things, at maximum power, and without doing any damage, since my teen years-40 years, now..... In fact, I'm certain that others have done it for hundreds of years.....:lfao:

Not really. You can compete judo with intent. And not have a room full of corpses. You start adding to much sillyness and someone will get hurt more than they need to.

Those kids had intent and somone died. If a third party had pulled that kid off at the submission then that death was less likely. No change in the intent.

 

[elder999]

Actually I was asking for anything outside their imagination.

So I guess there's no proof.
.

And we also have no idea of how men went to sea in sailing vessels, rowed boats after whales, harpooned and butchered them, I suppose?

:lfao:

Or what daily life was like for the Algonquin before the arrival of Europeans?
:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:

Not really. You can compete judo with intent. And not have a room full of corpses. You start adding to much sillyness and someone will get hurt more than they need to.

Those kids had intent and somone died. If a third party had pulled that kid off at the submission then that death was less likely. No change in the intent.

So, let me get this straight-you're saying that his intent wouldn't have been lethal if someone had stopped him??

This has to be deliberately obtuse.

I mean, I've worked with some of the smartest people-scratch that-I've worked with the smartest people in the world-enough to know that there weren't just times when I wasn't the smartest guy in the room-there were times when I wasn't even the smartest guy in the building. That said, I'm a pretty smart guy, and I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. There's a phrase I use quite a bit at work these days, since my work situation has changed-and when I do, some of my coworkers just nod, to remind me that apparently, it is possible:

"No one, could possibly be that dumb. He's gotta be kidding, right? Right??"

View attachment $leo.jpg
:lfao:

 

[hoshin1600]

HAIR PULLS ARE LETHAL!! yes thats right you could reach out to pull someones hair and they could trip and fall forward into you, making the two of you stumble backwards into the street, while on comming traffic and a semi- trailer moving at 50 MPH squishes the both of you like a pancake.
Yes thats why hair pulling was removed from all competition. its potentialy fatal.

 

[elder999]

Interestingly, do jime the Body Strangle or Trunk Lock, is taught in judo, but illegal in judo competition, AND legal in BJJ competition.

It is "potentially lethal," much like the claw hammer I left sitting on the bench at home.....but more so....:lfao:

 

[elder999]

Well if you're punching someone in the chest, you're not punching them in the throat.

.

Punched a guy in the chest-actually, hit him with a palm heel- when he groped my wife at a concert, 25 years or so ago (Stevie Ray Vaughn concert the summer he was killed, so it's 24 years ago. Joe Cocker warmed up for him, June of 1990 at Jones Beach...EDIT: Actually, it was July 8, 1990....and Joe Cocker was a "co-headliner," who just happened to play first.....)

Knocked him over three rows of seats.He didn't get up......Thought I'd killed him........:lfao:

 

[drop bear]

And we also have no idea of how men went to sea in sailing vessels, rowed boats after whales, harpooned and butchered them, I suppose?

:lfao:

Or what daily life was like for the Algonquin before the arrival of Europeans?
:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:




So, let me get this straight-you're saying that his intent wouldn't have been lethal if someone had stopped him??

This has to be deliberately obtuse.

I mean, I've worked with some of the smartest people-scratch that-I've worked with the smartest people in the world-enough to know that there weren't just times when I wasn't the smartest guy in the room-there were times when I wasn't even the smartest guy in the building. That said, I'm a pretty smart guy, and I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. There's a phrase I use quite a bit at work these days, since my work situation has changed-and when I do, some of my coworkers just nod, to remind me that apparently, it is possible:

"No one, could possibly be that dumb. He's gotta be kidding, right? Right??"

View attachment 18998
:lfao:

OK we do have a provable history that operates outside of your imagination. So not really valid. You can fight with intent and not kill people if the lethality of what you do has been removed. So also not valid.

And if you have issue with your coworkers that is your issue.

The history of judo.
http://judoinfo.com/jhist4.htm

Dangerous techniques removed so it could be trained competitively.

 

[drop bear]

Interestingly, do jime the Body Strangle or Trunk Lock, is taught in judo, but illegal in judo competition, AND legal in BJJ competition.

It is "potentially lethal," much like the claw hammer I left sitting on the bench at home.....but more so....:lfao:

Well if you take your claw hammer in to judo you won't be able to use it. Because some techniques are too lethal. Hitting someone with a claw hammer is one. It is illegal in judo and bjj.

I don't think you get that there are degrees of lethal and so there are degrees in which they are allowed to be trained.

 

[Chris Parker]

I honestly have trouble believing you're being this dense… I really do… I mean, I know I gave you the nickname of Dogberry recently, but you really don't have to try this hard to live up to it…

Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.

You got evidence. You actually got better evidence, via confirmatory statements and supporting references, than you-tube clips provide. That you are too lacking in understanding or grounding to understand it doesn't change the fact that you got the evidence, you understand… I'll review it and highlight what you were given in a moment…

So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.

Again, you do know what koryu are, don't you…? Cause, I gotta say… that's exactly what we have.

So it is about believing not about understanding.

No, it's about understanding. You don't have any.

Now, back to what Elder already told you…

Actually, I do.

I'm friends with several koryu practitioners, have training in koryu myself, and have been privileged to see several densho, though these last were mostly useless to me, as they are meant for people with more depth in their ryu. I've also had the privilege of being permitted to practice in modern replicas of yoroi, to see just how some movements and techniques were originally meant to be executed in armor (and be lethal). With that said, while deaths did occur, it's safe to say that outside of duels, grudges and accidents, samurai weren't regularly killing each other in practice. Deaths have occurred in judo as well, though not so many since its inception , and none from choking-though the choke has been fatal many times when used by law enforcement. In fact, most judo deaths have been head injuries from bad falls....which I can't help but believe has something to do with BJJ academies mostly practicing from the knees....what cagão papo furado ..:lol:

So let's look at that.

Elder stated, quite clearly, that he has trained in Koryu (the actual arts trained by the samurai), has seen the densho (transmission books, records of both the arts and the training methods, and more) from some of these traditions, and trained in the techniques in part of their original (application) context, to see how they are meant to be applied. In addition to that, I train in Koryu (a couple of different ryu-ha), and can tell you just how these things are done now, how they were done then, what is the same, and what has changed, in a range of different systems.

Actually I was asking for anything outside their imagination.

None of what you were told has come from any imagination, son. In fact, the only argument here that has come from anyone's imagination is this one from you.

So I guess there's no proof.

There's a difference between there not being any proof, and your abject denial of the evidence you are presented with simply on the basis that you have absolutely no clue what on earth you're talking about.

But yeah I am sure these guys are living the life of a samurai. And certainly not some well let's call it a historical recreationist version. I mean this is elders argument that he is so in tune with samurai training that he can tell if they were chunking people around in dangerous arm bars and neck cranks.

"Living the life of a samurai"?!?! Dude, do you even hear yourself?!?! Who on earth has said anything of the kind! All that's been mentioned is the training methods being for lethal usage, but not being lethal in training… surely, surely you can see the distinction???

Seriously. Stop trying to argue something you know absolutely nothing about with people who actually do what you're trying to comment on. Nothing in your posts is based in anything close to reality… which makes your accusation that both Elder's and my comments are from our "imagination" rather ironic… and would be funny, if it wasn't so sad that you actually think like that. Unless you're just trolling, yeah? I mean, after your recent refutation of my arguments being "Nope, sorry, you're wrong" with absolutely no back up, I'm starting to think that that might be it… care to refute?

They either did fight to the death as part of their training or they didn't I am not assuming one way or the other.

Yeah… right… cause, what you want when training people, is for the trainees to kill each other… are you kidding?!?!

As I said I don't know I wasn't there. Maybe elder and Chris were. They certainly are trying to come across that way.

No, Dogberry, we're saying that we have an education and understanding of the topic. You really, really should come to grips with that.

"No one, could possibly be that dumb. He's gotta be kidding, right? Right??"

View attachment 18998
:lfao:

Sadly Elder, I feel that he could be… unless, as I said, this is an elaborate troll job…

OK we do have a provable history that operates outside of your imagination. So not really valid.

Er… did you miss a word there? Or are you saying that yes, there is a provable history outside of Elder's imagination (I really don't know where you got that ludicrous idea from in the first place, though… nothing has been from inside Elders imagination from the get-go)… so it's not valid? Er… isn't that the opposite of… well… itself? And your point? At the same time?

You can fight with intent and not kill people if the lethality of what you do has been removed. So also not valid.

What's not valid?!?! Really, what's your argument here? I mean, you can fight with intent and kill people even without specifically "lethal" methods, you know… you can fight without "intent" and kill people the same way… with or without such "lethal" techniques… or you can train in lethal methods without killing people…

You're not making any sense.

And if you have issue with your coworkers that is your issue.

Did you really miss the point of Elders comments about his co-workers? There wasn't anything to do with having "issues" with them…

The history of judo.
Judo History

Dangerous techniques removed so it could be trained competitively.

Yeah… look, I gotta say, there are some major issues with the history provided there, specifically to the other methods of jujutsu (leaving off the spelling issues there for the minute)… with much of the "history" given there being not really that accurate…

But to the aspect you've highlighted, you might note that the "dangerous techniques" were removed for competition… they were retained for seniors in other forms including kata… so…?

Well if you take your claw hammer in to judo you won't be able to use it. Because some techniques are too lethal. Hitting someone with a claw hammer is one. It is illegal in judo and bjj.

I don't think you get that there are degrees of lethal and so there are degrees in which they are allowed to be trained.

And, again, you completely miss what you're being told… Elder was employing sarcastic exaggeration to demonstrate the flaws with your argument… surely you saw that, yeah? You didn't really think he was suggesting bringing a claw hammer into a Judo contest? Cause really, if you did, I have no way to comprehend how you see the world…

But, to take this back to the idea of this thread and argument about what makes something lethal or not… looking at the idea of technique versus intent… when I train, it is always with lethal intent (depending on the system… I'm talking my Koryu material here). On both sides. If I'm uchidachi, or shidachi, my aim is the death of my opponent. It can't be anything less than that, or there's really no point training it. And you know something? I've never killed anyone (literally… I have symbolically countless times over) in training at all. Why not? Well, there are safety measures in place… training methodology and equipment… but the point is that you can train with lethal intent and not kill… and you can kill without lethal intent… and both of those are true regardless of the technique, to a great degree.