Boy dies from headlock. Are you prepared?

[RTKDCMB]

Agree! There are 3 best places for head lock,

- temple area,
- jaw area, and
- neck area.

IMO, 1 is better than 2, and 2 is better than 3.

1 is less secure than 2 or 3.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Agree! There are 3 best places for head lock,

- temple area,
- jaw area, and
- neck area.

IMO, 1 is better than 2, and 2 is better than 3.

Can I add #4? Get him under the cheekbone.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Can I add #4? Get him under the cheekbone.

#5 is between his cheekbone and his nose. :miffer:

 

[Touch Of Death]

#5 is between his cheekbone and his nose. :miffer:

#6 eye sockets!

 

[Paul_D]

BJJ is mostly judo.....

BJJ = Basically Just Judo

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ = Basically Just Judo

Youre basically just wrong.

 

[Gnarlie]

Nothing like a good discussion.

 

[Paul_D]

Youre basically just wrong.

As it is difficult to convey context in text, smileys were invented to show when comments are made in jest and not intended to be taken serious. Hence the at the end of my sentence.

Here endeth today's lesson.

 

[Paul_D]

Youre basically just wrong.

Now with added smiley. sweet.

 

[Buka]

Yes, that was disturbing to watch. I hate the man filming as much as the guy doing the killing - which is exactly what he was doing. I hope both are in jail, but I'd be afraid to find out.

In our version of American Karate we deal with headlocks in exactly the way shown, as was taught to us by the Gracies. All except the one against the wall at the 16 and a half minute mark. Never tried stepping over the leg (standing) but I'll drill that next week, that's for damn sure. Thanks for posting that vid.

Never heard the word "perpendiculate" before, either. What a nice verb.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, that was disturbing to watch. I hate the man filming as much as the guy doing the killing - which is exactly what he was doing. I hope both are in jail, but I'd be afraid to find out.

I'm sure they both are. I was surprised that the guy filming it didn't jump up and pull the guy off of him.

In our version of American Karate we deal with headlocks in exactly the way shown, as was taught to us by the Gracies. All except the one against the wall at the 16 and a half minute mark. Never tried stepping over the leg (standing) but I'll drill that next week, that's for damn sure. Thanks for posting that vid.

Yeah, when I saw that vid, I knew I had to post it. I think a lot of people don't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke that you can die from.

 

[drop bear]

Ya know what a safety engineer calls that?

An "administrative control."

It's the lowest form of hazard mitigation in the safety hierarchy.

See, in order to mitigate a hazard, the first level is to eliminate it: make it go away: lower that platform so the work is done at ground level.

The second, is to resolve it through engineering: put in a guard railing, so the people doing the work can't fall.

The third is to resolve it through PPE-personnel protective equipment-make people wear a fall-arresting harness on that platform.

The last is the "administrative control": tell everybody, don't fall off that platform.':lfao:

Judo and BJJ "rules" are an "administrative control," though an old and effective one. I mean, after all, does anyone think that samurai practicing in the service of a daimyo regularly choked each other to death during practice-even though they were learning those techniques to use them lethally?

:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:

The lethality hasn't been "removed." It's just agreed that "we're not gonna do that."

It is a move where you have time to tap out. Where there are other moves that you dont. Removing the lethality.

Do you have any evidence of how samurai trained or are we playing pretend?

 

[Buka]

Something else I wanted to mention - we call headlocks, a "natural technique" (for lack of a better, more scientific term) as are the mount and a swinging strike with the dominant hand. Every little kid (male) in the world does those three things without anyone showing them how. Sure, they might do other things, but those three seem to be ingrained and prevalent world wide. As such, I think the three should be worked as part of the basic foundation for self defense. Especially for kids. And especially for girl kids.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, when I saw that vid, I knew I had to post it. I think a lot of people don't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke that you can die from.

Most people that actually train in MA's and don't just post up pics of schools because they look cool already know that

 

[ballen0351]

One of the strangest responses to the headlock I learned was in the Marine Corps. Grab twist pull grab sweep and stomp. Grab the groin twist the groin pull the groin down. That supposed to loosen the arm around your neck or head. Grab that arm sweep the leg stomp on head.

Marine corps over simplified eveeything. Everything no matter what ended in sweep and stomp. I guess when you have to teach 100s of students at a time and only get a week or so to do it you have too

 

[RTKDCMB]

[video=youtube_share;OfRCh_xth6Q]http://youtu.be/OfRCh_xth6Q[/video]

That's why when they say "kids, don't try this at home" the kids should listen.

 

[elder999]

I'm sure they both are. I was surprised that the guy filming it didn't jump up and pull the guy off of him.

In the favelas of Brazil, as in much of the rest of the world, life is cheap. In a world where children are kidnapped and forced to fight in wars before they become teenagers, this is relatively minor, sadly-travel the world, don't just see the pretty parts, and it's easy enough to see.

Hell, I had to get out of India, 35 odd years ago, because I simply got tired of dirty, begging children I could do little for, and constantly seeing dead bodies in the street. And it felt "dirty," as in, "unsanitary." :barf:

Of course, I was barely out of childhood, then.....

Yeah, when I saw that vid, I knew I had to post it. I think a lot of people don't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke that you can die from.

Seems to me like you mean that you didn't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke...:lfao:

"A headlock can become a choke." Good that you pointed that out, since the boy didn't die from a headlock, as the title of your OP says-he was choked, and we do chokes all the time, don't we? I mean, all that's happened here is that one of the participants deliberately ignored practices administrative control: he didn't release the hold when the other guy tapped. Of course, these were kids just mucking about, apparently without anyone there to really control or instruct them, or this wouldn't have happened.

It is a move where you have time to tap out. Where there are other moves that you dont. Removing the lethality.

These "other moves that you don't?" Have they been "removed?" or simply removed from free sparring/randori/shiai? I know, for instance, that ippon seionage can be performed with uke's arm supinated-though there aren't a great many judo dojos in the country that ever teach it that way, since it's not permitted in contests. However, there are dojo and "jiu-jitsu academies ( :lfao: )" all over the world that have people regularly putting each other to sleep by choking-this in itself, the regular and deliberate causing of unconsciousness through the compression of the arterio-baroflex and sympathetic nerves (the hypoglossal nerve, the vagus nerve, etc.), and or the depression of arterial and jugular flow to and from the dura matter-might ultimately prove to be lethal, much like concussions in other sports have today.

Do you have any evidence of how samurai trained or are we playing pretend?

Actually, I do.

I'm friends with several koryu practitioners, have training in koryu myself, and have been privileged to see several densho, though these last were mostly useless to me, as they are meant for people with more depth in their ryu. I've also had the privilege of being permitted to practice in modern replicas of yoroi, to see just how some movements and techniques were originally meant to be executed in armor (and be lethal). With that said, while deaths did occur, it's safe to say that outside of duels, grudges and accidents, samurai weren't regularly killing each other in practice. Deaths have occurred in judo as well, though not so many since its inception , and none from choking-though the choke has been fatal many times when used by law enforcement. In fact, most judo deaths have been head injuries from bad falls....which I can't help but believe has something to do with BJJ academies mostly practicing from the knees....what cagão papo furado ..:lol:

 

[elder999]

Marine corps over simplified eveeything. Everything no matter what ended in sweep and stomp. I guess when you have to teach 100s of students at a time and only get a week or so to do it you have too

They also have different priorities-one of which is getting every rifleman into combat-oversimplified things tend to reduce potential injuries as well....I've found that some of the best and simplest responses for a headlock type situation-depending upon frames (which is why the whole "how would your art respond" question is generally nonsense) consist of picking up the attacker (sometimes from Principle #3, which is what we call the groin) and dropping him on his head. Practice that enough-especially on Marine Corps scale-and there will be injuries.

 

[Hanzou]

"A headlock can become a choke." Good that you pointed that out, since the boy didn't die from a headlock, as the title of your OP says-he was choked, and we do chokes all the time, don't we? I mean, all that's happened here is that one of the participants deliberately ignored practices administrative control: he didn't release the hold when the other guy tapped. Of course, these were kids just mucking about, apparently without anyone there to really control or instruct them, or this wouldn't have happened.

Semantics? The headlock led straight into the choke because the boy turned his head to avoid getting punched in the face, exposing his neck. Its the exact same hold, it was the victim's head positioning that caused the lock to transition into a choke.

All that happened here was that the boy was in a position he couldn't counter because he never trained to do so. If he had, he might be alive today.

 

[elder999]

Semantics? The headlock led straight into the choke because the boy turned his head to avoid getting punched in the face, exposing his neck. Its the exact same hold, it was the victim's head positioning that caused the lock to transition into a choke.

All that happened here was that the boy was in a position he couldn't counter because he never trained to do so. If he had, he might be alive today.

There's some validity to what you say, though we can't really say that either of them had ever trained to do anything, and weren't simply mimicking what they'd seen...as boys will do.