Black Belts and Poor Kicks
- Thread starter Gwai Lo Dan
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ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I dont mind mucking around doing the flashy stuff in my own time on my kick bag at home, but I dont want my instructor wasting valuable class time teaching tnat sort of stuff. The hours and hours spent teaching a flashy kick could be much better spent throwing a couple of thousand punches in my opinion, especially considering a lot of black belts cant even throw a punch properly. In my opinion, knowing how to do a 540 kick but being unable to punch properly is the perfect example of having priorities all messed up.
This. These sort of gymnastics can be a ton of fun and if people want to play with them, go for it. But what matters most is techniques that can be used effectively. I spent a bit of time after class a month or so ago teaching two of our younger students how to do tornado kicks. They asked. Shockingly, neither is using them in sparring. And, come to think of it, I haven't seen either of them practicing them when they're doing their own thing, either. Very sensible of them, really.
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
The danger I think is to say "My tornado kick is slow and ineffective. So therefore it is not worth practising". It may be that it is only ineffective because you don't practice it. As well, I see benefit in practising higher techniques, in that they tend to make more basic techniques even better (through better speed, balance, and body awareness).
In the last BB test I attended (not tested, just attended) students testing for 1st degree had to do 3 kicks: jumping front kick, tornado kick, and spinning hook kick. The boards were not too thick, and the student chose the kicking leg and height, so I think that should be easy enough for most anyone to do.
As to my original question "how high can you go with poor kicks", I see no limit at the school I attend. It's about attitude and attendance. Not saying it is right (and not saying it's wrong), it just "is". I created this thread just to see what "is" at other schools.
I think the best way to do it is to have a special class dedicated to those kinds of techniques. I know there's a local sport karate school that has a special class once a week specifically on "tricking" and learning how to do movie martial arts. If I was half my age I'm sure I'd be totally down for that.
I do agree that the basics should come first. Although as I mentioned before, I think a lot of flashy kicks can be very useful . . . if you practice them to be useful.
Since we were talking about the tornado kick earlier. . .
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I guess I don't understand the point of this type of kick, at least from a realistic perspective. Their dancing around each other and they may as well have their hands in their pockets. I can't see it working against an aggressive attacker not willing to stand there with his hands down while you set it up. Yeah, I know...this is sport TKD and not meant to be realistic. I just can't help but see it as a waste of time or worse, sport schools teaching this as a viable form of defense.
A few things. . .
First, you said it yourself--it's a sport. Then you dismissed it. The fact of the matter is that you need to COMPLETELY DIVORCE the way you think about TKD as a sport and the way you think about TKD as self-defense. That's like saying, "Why aren't soccer players allowed to pick the ball up with their hands? I mean, on the street you could do that!"
Second, and related to the first, the point of that kick for that competitor was to KTFO his opponent and he did. Again, regardless of any kind of self-defense value, in a sport you do what's going to maximize your chances of winning.
Third, a lot of people find the tornado kick to be confusing. They get focused on the first knee coming around and completely miss the kick coming from the other leg. So under the right circumstances, it should be viable even in a self-defense situation.
I've got another video for you. Another "flashy" kick used in competition to positive results. Do you also not understand the point of this kick?
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chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I agree completely with this statement. The WTF made Taekwondo sparring into a game and adopted a specific ruleset in order to differentiate it from karate and further develop kicking skills (which Koreans have historically favored in folk games such as Taekkyon). In this respect they have done an admirable job and the further refinements they make in the rules have continued to foster this kind of game.
Yep.
This is true. The circumstances in which it could prove useful are most likely limited, but it could still be used. I know more than one person who successfully defended themselves using "useless" techniques because they had put the training time in to become proficient in them.
Heh, nice kick (though I must admit I stopped thinking of flying back piercing kicks as "flashy" years ago - right around the time I became good at them
A flashy kick for me is anything I can't do well 
). I will say, however, that if the blue player had his hands up he might well not have taken a boot to the head. Go figure 
Pax,
Chris
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I will say, however, that if the blue player had his hands up he might well not have taken a boot to the head. Go figure
Pax,
Chris
This. There are plenty of things that work in SPORTS that would be foolish to try in non-sport settings.
Heh, nice kick (though I must admit I stopped thinking of flying back piercing kicks as "flashy" years ago - right around the time I became good at them
I find that the general sentiment is that most people think anything in which a person spins or goes into the air, it's flashy. And if you do both? Look out!
I will say, however, that if the blue player had his hands up he might well not have taken a boot to the head. Go figure
Ha ha. Yeah, that could be. Although that kick hit him in the forehead and even guys who "hold their hands" up don't really hold them at head height.
Floyd would've gotten taken out, too:
Do you expect most people on the street to be trained fighters? Are you saying that the guy in that vid couldn't have equal success nailing some random, untrained street thug?
Not at all. However, as someone who is involved in physical confrontations on a regular basis (I've had cops tell me that ER people are assaulted more often than they are - maybe because we don't get guns or tazers...) I find it best to assume that they are. That way, I am plesantly suprised when they're not.
Do you expect that most people are the street are random, untrained street thugs?
Well I don't expect MOST people to have formal training. Some will. And there will also be those who aren't formally trained but who have a fair amount of "streetfighting" experience, which actually can be pretty valuable when it comes to knowing how to fight.
I do agree that you should be prepared for anything. I just feel that there's more value--even self-defense value, under the right circumstances--to certain techniques than a lot of people give them credit for. That jump spinning back kick that that guy does in that vid is so blindingly fast that I could easily see him using it for self-defense. I mean, he probably throws that kick about as fast as he could've thrown a roundhouse.
BTW, that's interesting about ER people getting assaulted. I was unaware of that.
Several things to address here. First, I understand the point of the kicks you've posted. In large part, these types of kicks are going to require several things that aren't likely outside of a sport-setting i.e. distance, range, a non-aggressive attacker (one that is willing to stand there during the time it takes to complete the kick rather than closing the distance, and have their hands low).
Can it possibly be used in a SD situation. Sure, anything can giving the right set of circumstances. If the guy is drunk for example, perhaps a little wobbly an not able to close the distance quickly and/or effectively. But then again, if you're in close quarters i.e. between a couple of parked cars it would be a lot simpler (and vastly more effective) to do a low kick to the knee or instep. And of course I'd hate to see someone in tight jeans that isn't warmed up (unlike these competitors who have warmed up and stretched out and have the luxury of loose-fitting clothing). Or someone in high heels or ....you get the picture. It is a low % defense that requires too many circumstance to line up in order to pull off.
It looks pretty though. But not really martial art.
Here is a consideration for everyone to be aware of;
Some random street thugs will be untrained i.e. the drunk guy I mentioned. But some have trained. Everyone needs to understand that jails and prisons are breeding grounds for criminals to become better criminals whether it is more effective ways to break into a house or more effective ways to stab you or take your head off with an assault. We have videos of this type of training. It can't be stopped. So that random thug you face on the street might be some awkward newbie to fighting that you can blow through easily. Or, it can be that guy that is on parole that doesn't particularly care if he trashes your face and has learned fist-fighting pretty well in prison (on top of the knife or shank he's armed himself with for just such an occasion). Which do you think is more likely to pick a fight with you? After the fight is a lousy time to find out which guy he was.
Just some thoughts. And nothing intended to flame anyone over.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Ha ha. Yeah, that could be. Although that kick hit him in the forehead and even guys who "hold their hands" up don't really hold them at head height.
Floyd would've gotten taken out, too:
Haha! I don't know about that. I will say, though, that his guard is higher and so he'd have a quicker reaction time to block it after he saw it coming. The blue fighter would have had to get his hands to travel a farther distance (if he had done anything in the first place
). As it was both fighters were doing an admirable job of protecting their groins from all the low kicks that the WTF allows I kid!
Interestingly, some ITF fighters will carry their rear hand in a higher guard, having the fist about level with the jaw/ear lobe while the front hand is carried about shoulder height (with the elbow bent) or even lower so the arm itself protects the ribs down to the waist. That way one gets coverage in the front that is flexible as well as being able to deal with high kicks with the rear hand. Don't know how that would play out in WTF matches since it's really a different game, but it would be interesting to watch.
Pax,
Chris
When I tested for 1st Dan in TKD, we had to break a thin (1/2"?) board with a tornado kick. It took some of us a couple tries, but everyone did it in the end. (Though I think if somebody had an injury etc they would've gotten an exemption.)
But my TKD training focused on WTF sport sparring, where that kind of kick is useful. But you're right about that kick in a real self-defense situation. I don't think I had to do anything like that for my HKD dan test.
In large part, I think agree with you.
It would be difficult to do a tornado kick on someone who's bull-rushing you.
I don't totally agree with the hands low thing, though. People get kicked in the face in kickboxing and MMA all the time, even when holding a high guard. You just have to get around that.
Well sometimes even on the street two guys just square up like it's a boxing match. You know, one guy says something that pisses another one off, they have words, and its fight time.
I agree that you should use the appropriate technique at the appropriate time. Luckily our martial arts systems have a wide variety of techniques, far more than any of us can really master.
I wouldn't say that. If it can be used--under any circumstances--then it may be art, but it's also martial.
That's a good point. Considering my rather diminutive size (about 5'6", 160 lbs), really, I would rather carry a gun than rely on my hand-to-hand skills in a true, life-or-death encounter anyway.
Hey, you never know. That kick was wicked fast.
I actually would love to see how Floyd would handle kicks in a kickboxing match and especially takedowns in an MMA match. If he was fighting someone with good takedowns, I think it would be wrapped up pretty quickly.
