Black Belts and Poor Kicks

[seasoned]

Form (mechanics) of kicks should always be taught first. Proper foot position on contact which requires hitting things (heavy bag, striking pads) and such.
Once the principles of proper kicking are taught, never sacrifice form for height.

By the time, no excuses, someone reaches black belt their principles of technique should be intact.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I also did a power break of 5 16x8x2" pavers.
.

Spacers? If so, what type?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I mean coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height). Believe it or not, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I really am curious how high a person can go with poor kicks, perhaps due to age, injury issues, or just being very unathletic.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your response. Are you classifying a kick that is coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height) as a poor kick? From a self-defense perspective, that is fine. Stomach height would be about as far as I would teach someone to kick, and only if the attacker has already been stunned by some other form of defense. Normally, in SD the kick is towards knee height or instep as it is quicker, harder to defend against and does more damage while taking the attacker off-balance.

From the sport perspective, you are considering the type of kick you've described as poor? If so, why?

I do agree with others that age and/or injury are legitimate reasons to no longer be able to do some things. However, they should have been able to demonstrate these things at some point in their martial career in order to be promoted, if that is what the curriculum they've chosen requires. Yes, belts are motivational but that is a side benefit. The primary purpose is to gauge the level of training. Otherwise people are being promoted to levels that they technically haven't earned. That may not be politically correct these days, but bypassing the standards of the art to 'motivate' people waters down the art as a whole. KKW TKD has been infected by this over the years and is one of the primary reasons it is looked upon the way it is by those not involved in it's rank structure.

Black belt doesn't mean a person is a master ninja-commando-ultimate warrior. But it is a milestone in one's training. If they can't perform the requirements satisfactorily then how should they be able to earn it? How can they then turn around and teach it properly to others? If they have earned it, but then can't perform due to age/injury then at least they still have that prior working experience to pass on with a correct way to perform the technique.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

A student's kicks can be absolutely terrible and be promoted to nearly any level. Why? Because the belt system is a tool for me and other instructors to use to motivate, delineate the syllabus and group students. There is no need to hold back any student that would impinge on their ability to learn and be educated.

Belts aren't for other people at my school.

That sounds good I suppose. But wouldn't that mean you've grouped students, some of which can and some of which can't perform some of the syllabus? Would that not then invalidate the grouping?

 

[ACJ]

That sounds good I suppose. But wouldn't that mean you've grouped students, some of which can and some of which can't perform some of the syllabus? Would that not then invalidate the grouping?

The grouping has more to do with what we would be focusing on teaching that group, rather than their abilities. But despite the rather blasé attitude toward belt levels I presented in my post, in reality they work much like any other schools, with levels generally being awarded due to competency with a particular skill set. The main point of my post was that we don't get worked up around the idea of how good someone at a particular belt level should be, but on how the belt system affects the learning process of the student and how it can modified to get the best results.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your response. Are you classifying a kick that is coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height) as a poor kick? From a self-defense perspective, that is fine. Stomach height would be about as far as I would teach someone to kick, and only if the attacker has already been stunned by some other form of defense. Normally, in SD the kick is towards knee height or instep as it is quicker, harder to defend against and does more damage while taking the attacker off-balance.

From the sport perspective, you are considering the type of kick you've described as poor? If so, why?

No, I meant that a "good kick" is one that is at least stomach high, in the context of the KKW style of sparring with all kicks above the belt. I agree that self defence is a different matter, with knee kicks being effective, but I haven't seen low kicks as part of a KKW belt test. Do any of you do low kicks as part of the test for a KKW BB?

 

[Manny]

Oh boy.... well there are 5 or 6 dans that can do triple tornado kicks, and there are 5 or 6 dans that can not, I am one of the last but let me tell you soemthing. My roundhouse kick to the ribs is super!! My side kick or back kick is enough to put down an oponent and my dolyo chagui maybe not to high but powerful yes.

Some time back I was on my sweat suit cause I finished training and a frieend of my dad askes how high could I kick? I just tell him right in the chin with my ap chagui do you want me to try it? The folk just smiled and lower his sight and yes my ap chagui is one of the higest kicks I can perform.

I can kick high to the head but sometimes is just unconrtable and my kick is not so powerful but aiming to the torno... well that's another story, I just drop a student using a kicking shiled on his leg and performing a roundhouse to the tight I droped him to the floor with littel pain (thanks to the kicking shield), the student got it! No matter how high I can kick beware of my powerful right legth to the body.

Manny

 

[Dirty Dog]

Spacers? If so, what type?

Carpenters pencils.

I had planned to do 8, but I broke my hand a week before the test, and the cast impacted my balance, so I went down to 5. My personal best is 10, so far.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Carpenters pencils.
I broke my hand a week before the test ....so I went down to 5.

Damn, that's hardcore!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

My roundhouse kick to the ribs is super!!

Is that with the instep or ball of foot? I'd like to practice the ball of the foot method to penetrate more, but I've been told it's not WTF style, so we never (never ever!) practice it in class. Too bad in my opinion.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Carpenters pencils.

I had planned to do 8, but I broke my hand a week before the test, and the cast impacted my balance, so I went down to 5. My personal best is 10, so far.

Excellent job!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I bet he can drop you in a lot of other ways than a kick to the head though. Experience is probably one of the best tools you can have, coupled with dedication you have the perfect teacher.

Oh trust me, he can drop me in many many ways, I would be terrified to fight him for real. But you forgot patience you need that a lot, especially with new students.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think there is a difference between flashy kicks and good kicks. Even someone in their eighties should still be able to perform a kick with good technique, they may struggle doing a jump spinning hook kick, but if we are talking about good solid technique then neither age nor physical condition should really come into it. I train with a guy in his late sixties who is overweight with little flexibility but he can still perform a front kick, roundhouse, hook, sidekick etc with near perfect technique, they are not head height, but who cares, he kicks with good technique. He is a sixth dan and deserves that rank because of this. If his kicks were sloppy, slow and not done correctly then I would have a major problem with him having any rank higher than probably first gup. The reason most people have poor kicks is a lack of practice or laziness or a combination of both, you cant just blame age etc.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I think there is a difference between flashy kicks and good kicks. Even someone in their eighties should still be able to perform a kick with good technique, they may struggle doing a jump spinning hook kick, but if we are talking about good solid technique then neither age nor physical condition should really come into it. I train with a guy in his late sixties who is overweight with little flexibility but he can still perform a front kick, roundhouse, hook, sidekick etc with near perfect technique, they are not head height, but who cares, he kicks with good technique. He is a sixth dan and deserves that rank because of this. If his kicks were sloppy, slow and not done correctly then I would have a major problem with him having any rank higher than probably first gup. The reason most people have poor kicks is a lack of practice or laziness or a combination of both, you cant just blame age etc.

I'd have to largely agree with this. A lot of the older, out of shape, lost flexibility stuff is simply a lack of training. I can sympathize. The motivation for training hard changes over time and it can be hard to find time for your own training if you are responsible for teaching everyday, especially if you have a full-time day job, as well.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'd have to largely agree with this. A lot of the older, out of shape, lost flexibility stuff is simply a lack of training. I can sympathize. The motivation for training hard changes over time and it can be hard to find time for your own training if you are responsible for teaching everyday, especially if you have a full-time day job, as well.

I saw a "golden oldies" game of cricket recently. The guys participating were former first graders in their 60's and 70's and while they had lost some strength and speed (and put on a lot of weight ) their technique was still close to perfect. Having sloppy black belts with poor technique and using the age/weight excuse doesnt sit well with me. The reality is that to perform a front kick, side kick etc at waist level with good technique is really very easy with a bit of practice. In fact, far easier than most other sports. Agood friend of mine had a bad motor bike accident and and wrecked his back and hips (and he is overweight) and can still execute his kicks to a satisfactory level to be a black belt. My seven year old son can perform kicks with proper technique and he doesnt even practice. High/flashy kicks are another thing altogether but I dont believe you should have to know flashy kicks to get a black belt.

 

[Manny]

Is that with the instep or ball of foot? I'd like to practice the ball of the foot method to penetrate more, but I've been told it's not WTF style, so we never (never ever!) practice it in class. Too bad in my opinion.

Instep and part of the shinbone.

Manny

 

[SPX]

I do agree with others that age and/or injury are legitimate reasons to no longer be able to do some things. However, they should have been able to demonstrate these things at some point in their martial career in order to be promoted, if that is what the curriculum they've chosen requires.

This is how I feel.

There comes a time when you have a draw a line somewhere and say that giving a good effort is not quite enough. Getting to black belt and beyond should require that you ACTUALLY be able to do certain things, not just have a desire to do them or merely try to do them. If a student can't do them, then perhaps there is another martial art (or another hobby altogether) that would be better suited for him or her.

I definitely understand the desire to reward dedication, but you still have to have standards. It's martial arts schools that refuse to fail anybody when testing time comes around that end up getting a bad reputation, and when there are enough of those schools within that art the whole art suffers as a consequence.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is how I feel.

There comes a time when you have a draw a line somewhere and say that giving a good effort is not quite enough. Getting to black belt and beyond should require that you ACTUALLY be able to do certain things, not just have a desire to do them or merely try to do them. If a student can't do them, then perhaps there is another martial art (or another hobby altogether) that would be better suited for him or her.

I definitely understand the desire to reward dedication, but you still have to have standards. It's martial arts schools that refuse to fail anybody when testing time comes around that end up getting a bad reputation, and when there are enough of those schools within that art the whole art suffers as a consequence.

So do you know of any schools that REQUIRE tornado kicks (and such) for promotion? I ask because I'd certainly want to avoid such a school. Requiring non-useful techniques would indicate to me that the school has lost touch with the realities of self defense, in preference to gymnastics.

And, as it happens, we do not fail students at promotion time. Students who are not already performing at the next level are not allowed to test. Students who (due to nerves, or whatever) cannot perform at a passing level on test day have their promotions pending until they're able to perform at the expected level. This has happened a ferw times, most commonly when someone has been unable to perform a required break. They keep trying as often as they like till they succeed.

 

[SPX]

So do you know of any schools that REQUIRE tornado kicks (and such) for promotion? I ask because I'd certainly want to avoid such a school. Requiring non-useful techniques would indicate to me that the school has lost touch with the realities of self defense, in preference to gymnastics.

I don't know of any, but it wouldn't seem completely ridiculous to me, especially if it was a TKD or sport karate school that placed a great deal of emphasis on doing demonstrations (and there are several of those around). It may not be why you or I train, or what we want out of the art, but that's really another matter.

Ultimately though, there have to be SOME standards or requirements. I guess I look at it the same way I look at going to college -- if you can pass the coursework, you get a degree. If you can't, then you don't. Teachers will work with you if you're struggling with something, but at the end of the day, if you want the degree, you have to pass the required tests.

My main issue is with the notion that you deserve a black belt (or any other kind of belt) just for putting the time in. That belt should MEAN something, just like a college degree does. Or just like a Ranger patch does in the Army. Or just like the "Grandmaster" title does in chess.

I've always bounced around cities and schools and martial arts too much to ever attain the rank of black belt in any style. But one day I hope to. And when I do, I hope that I'll feel like it wasn't an easy journey. I hope that I will have had to demonstrate skills and abilities that I didn't previously have and that I achieved that rank because I was CAPABLE . . . not merely present when the roll was taken.

And, as it happens, we do not fail students at promotion time. Students who are not already performing at the next level are not allowed to test. Students who (due to nerves, or whatever) cannot perform at a passing level on test day have their promotions pending until they're able to perform at the expected level. This has happened a ferw times, most commonly when someone has been unable to perform a required break. They keep trying as often as they like till they succeed.

I've heard of schools that are run that way. It sounds like a better way to do it. All the schools I've been affiliated with have testings every so often and if you are a student at that school then you are welcome to test.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't know of any, but it wouldn't seem completely ridiculous to me, especially if it was a TKD or sport karate school that placed a great deal of emphasis on doing demonstrations (and there are several of those around). It may not be why you or I train, or what we want out of the art, but that's really another matter.

Ultimately though, there have to be SOME standards or requirements. I guess I look at it the same way I look at going to college -- if you can pass the coursework, you get a degree. If you can't, then you don't. Teachers will work with you if you're struggling with something, but at the end of the day, if you want the degree, you have to pass the required tests.

My main issue is with the notion that you deserve a black belt (or any other kind of belt) just for putting the time in. That belt should MEAN something, just like a college degree does. Or just like a Ranger patch does in the Army. Or just like the "Grandmaster" title does in chess.

I've always bounced around cities and schools and martial arts too much to ever attain the rank of black belt in any style. But one day I hope to. And when I do, I hope that I'll feel like it wasn't an easy journey. I hope that I will have had to demonstrate skills and abilities that I didn't previously have and that I achieved that rank because I was CAPABLE . . . not merely present when the roll was taken.

Passing the coursework does not require one to be a gymnast, in any school that teaches something that deserves to be called "martial arts". It should require that you be able to perform specific techniques properly and with power. There's no reasonable reason to expect that your kick be done at a full split, after doing a double back flip with a half twist. That's gymnastics, not martial arts.

To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.