What should a TKD Black Belt know? What should a TKD Black Belt learn?

[Buka]

That’s fine and good if you’re built and can move like Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan. Not so good if you’re built and move like Shaq.

That's the beauty of it, Garnett and Duncan are certainly built and move differently than Shaq - yet all three excelled to the very pinnacle of their game.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Triggered an old memory I hadn't thought of for a long time. So....I first trained in Greek Goju Ryu. It was my first art and I loved it. But the guys who got me started in it stopped going as frequently, and I couldn't get there as much as I wanted to. (almost two hours public transportation) Left after a few months. Man, I was big time bummed.

Shortly afterwards I found a school in a nearby town to me and started going there. A couple years goes by, I'm a green belt now, and the fellas who started me at the other place stopped up to see me. I was working out with another guy and these fellas watched and commented to each other "brown belt technique, brown belt technique, black belt technique" (they were kind of shocked that a green belt would be doing something that they themselves had yet to learn)

They stopped by a week later with their gis and we did some friendly sparring. They were both brown belts. Remembering their comments, I only threw stuff they were not familiar with. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. That always stuck with me.

It's why I give the students a lot to choose from. If a student asks me "Can you show me how to throw a jump spinning back kick? I'll say sure, but first you have to learn a back kick and I'll teach him that, then you have to learn to take to the air and teach him that. And let me show you what can happen when you do that - and I'll throw one and have one of the black belts just rip me out of the air and crash me to the ground like a shot bird.

Just like there's some students who will never be athletic enough to throw that kick. No matter how long they train. But they'll learn how to counter or neutralize it. And they love that. Obviously that has nothing to do with self defense....except for a little bit. Teaches you to play the cards you're dealt, how to overcome certain physical things, teaches body movement, distance, timing etc etc.

And we never actually had a curriculum necessary for the advanced of rank. Sometimes white to yellow, but that was about it.

When I was working out how I wanted to teach, I seriously wanted to divorce rank from the curriculum points. But it's too deeply ingrained in me. When I try to imagine not doing it, I see myself just throwing things at the students willy-nilly, because I'm trying really hard not to do what my mind is used to. In the end, I succumbed and did what worked for me, though I still don't think it's the most efficient way to teach...it's just apparently the most efficient way I can teach.

And students seem to like it as much as I did when I was going through the ranks, so I have to wonder if that whole exercise was just me wanting to change stuff without a good reason.

 

[dvcochran]

I understand where you’re coming from and I’m sure we’re a lot closer to agreeing than we appear to be on paper (actually, this screen).

Your approach is teach them what you feel they’re ready for when they’re ready, and don’t teach to a test. I agree.

My approach would be “ instead of playing around with that stick that you don’t need to use until later on, put the stick down and get better at the stuff you’re required to learn.”

One example that sticks out in my mind...
One of my basketball guys was a 6’10 power forward. Big, strong, stereotypically not a guard. He wasn’t fast nor agile enough, and he didn’t have the outside range. He had great range for a post player, but not guard range. What did this guy do during unstructured stuff? Shot 3s. Nothing but 3s and shooting guard stuff. The coach was always all over him. “Why don’t you work on your jump hook? Why don’t you work on positioning for rebounds? Why don’t you work on free-throws? It’s not like those are so perfect where you should start adding more stuff to your game that you don’t even need.” If that guy actually listened and spent half as much time doing those things as he did trying to be Larry Bird, he’d still be playing after college. He had a European league workout with a bunch of coaches and scouts who quickly walked away and started watching other people who actually spent time refining what they were supposed to rather than what they liked to do. It became painfully obvious to everyone in the gym that he thought he was a shooting guard rather than a power forward.

Practice what you need, not what you want.

But again, we’re on the same page.

I wish I have a school full of students with your frame of mind. I would make teaching so much easier. Just stay with the curriculum and never deviate.
I don't know any other way to say it other than it is balance and recognition from the teacher. The majority of people need something to break up the repetition every one in a while, that is the balance. I see some instructors do it more than others. I feel it is the instructors responsibility who, what, and when someone can learn something outside their required curriculum, that is the recognition.
Some people just are not very teachable, like the kid shooting 3's in his spare time. When something is voluntary, like school sports or MA, it is hard to help some people understand they are hurting their own progress.

 

[JR 137]

I wish I have a school full of students with your frame of mind. I would make teaching so much easier. Just stay with the curriculum and never deviate.
I don't know any other way to say it other than it is balance and recognition from the teacher. The majority of people need something to break up the repetition every one in a while, that is the balance. I see some instructors do it more than others. I feel it is the instructors responsibility who, what, and when someone can learn something outside their required curriculum, that is the recognition.
Some people just are not very teachable, like the kid shooting 3's in his spare time. When something is voluntary, like school sports or MA, it is hard to help some people understand they are hurting their own progress.

Well, I’m going to be 43 soon enough, so that probably explains my getting it right before I move on mentality. And that I’ve been there, done that with chasing rank in my early 20s. I’ve seen the stuff that looked really cool before I learned it, then learned it and thought why did I think that was so cool after I had it down enough times to realize that it’s not that big a deal anymore. I’ve been through getting my black belt and realizing I’m still just JR no matter what color my belt is.

In a nutshell, I’ve learned to enjoy the process far more than the outcome. The outcome is just a side effect in a sense. It’s about getting better and making the difficult stuff easier. Learning a new kata is fun and all, but I’ll learn it at the right time. The dojo’s not going anywhere any time soon and neither am I.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah, I guess the whole notion of strategic positioning for the sake of a competition is just very foreign to me in the context of learning a martial art. It reflects the primary mindset of the school in placing a high priority on winning competitions under a specific rule set.

It’s not my cup of tea, which i realize is my own issue and not theirs. They can do whatever they want. I do some something else.

Sure it’s strategic positioning for some, but not all. And I wasn’t thinking strategic positioning; I was thinking merely give the student a chance for a little success when they compete, ie the first time they point fight shouldn’t be in a tournament.

I’ve never competed in something I’ve never done before nor have I competed in something I absolutely knew I had zero chance of being somewhat competitive. But other people have and do. And that’s fine if they’re ok with it. But if I’m teaching and I’ve got a student who wants to compete for the right reasons, I’m going to help him out. I’m going to help give him a chance at a little success. I think any rational teacher would under the right circumstances.

 

[skribs]

New techniques, new forms. The Black Belt forms are much longer and more challenging than the colored belt forms. The new techniques are more challenging as well, plus different applications of old techniques.

We also do more advanced weapons training. Again, new forms for the weapons and more detailed application of the basics.

This confuses me, because of what you wrote earlier in the thread:

"To me, a Black Belt indicates that the individual has learned the curriculum of the style and has performed it in a testing environment before higher ranks.

I also equate earning 1st Degree to graduating from high school. You have learned the basics, now it's time to go to college and do some serious studying."

If you've learned the curriculum by black belt, then there isn't anything post-black belt. Yet there's a curriculum up to 8th degree, and you learn new techniques. You're making 0 sense in this thread.

 

[Balrog]

This confuses me, because of what you wrote earlier in the thread:

"To me, a Black Belt indicates that the individual has learned the curriculum of the style and has performed it in a testing environment before higher ranks.

I also equate earning 1st Degree to graduating from high school. You have learned the basics, now it's time to go to college and do some serious studying."

If you've learned the curriculum by black belt, then there isn't anything post-black belt. Yet there's a curriculum up to 8th degree, and you learn new techniques. You're making 0 sense in this thread.

I should have said 1st Degree Black Belts should know the entire colored belt curriculum. Then as you continue along the journey, there's always something new to learn. Which is the way it should be, because once you stop learning, you start stagnating.

 

[JR 137]

I should have said 1st Degree Black Belts should know the entire colored belt curriculum. Then as you continue along the journey, there's always something new to learn. Which is the way it should be, because once you stop learning, you start stagnating.

And if the curriculum did end at 1st dan, that doesn’t mean you’re not learning anything. What’s in a boxer’s “curriculum” after the initial several months? They’re not learning forms. There’s only so many ways to throw a punch. There’s only so many ways to block and duck.

Yet interestingly enough they’re still learning for years and years after they learned the “curriculum.”

 

[Flying Crane]

And if the curriculum did end at 1st dan, that doesn’t mean you’re not learning anything. What’s in a boxer’s “curriculum” after the initial several months? They’re not learning forms. There’s only so many ways to throw a punch. There’s only so many ways to block and duck.

Yet interestingly enough they’re still learning for years and years after they learned the “curriculum.”

Lots of mileage on a small curriculum.
Having trained in a couple of systems with very large curricula (@Buka your favorite word again) I am becoming more of a fan.

 

[skribs]

I should have said 1st Degree Black Belts should know the entire colored belt curriculum. Then as you continue along the journey, there's always something new to learn. Which is the way it should be, because once you stop learning, you start stagnating.

The purpose of this thread is to find out what should be in the colored belt vs. black belt curriculum.

Saying that a black belt should know the colored belt curriculum, is like defining the word with the word.

 

[dvcochran]

I should have said 1st Degree Black Belts should know the entire colored belt curriculum. Then as you continue along the journey, there's always something new to learn. Which is the way it should be, because once you stop learning, you start stagnating.

Love your tagline.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And if the curriculum did end at 1st dan, that doesn’t mean you’re not learning anything. What’s in a boxer’s “curriculum” after the initial several months? They’re not learning forms. There’s only so many ways to throw a punch. There’s only so many ways to block and duck.

Yet interestingly enough they’re still learning for years and years after they learned the “curriculum.”

Agreed. My formal curriculum actually does end at BB (no dan rankings). The NGAA curriculum isn't much different (a small amount at 1st dan, nothing after that), and I never ran out of stuff to learn and work on.

 

[skribs]

Agreed. My formal curriculum actually does end at BB (no dan rankings). The NGAA curriculum isn't much different (a small amount at 1st dan, nothing after that), and I never ran out of stuff to learn and work on.

Where do you get stuff to work on now?

 

[Flying Crane]

Where do you get stuff to work on now?

I can’t speak for Gerry, but there is plenty to work on without needing to learn something new and formalized as part of the curriculum. It seems to me that someone who has reached any level of black belt ought to be very capable of taking what they know and getting creative with it, coming up with new ways to practice it in context that is different from the formalized part of the education and training, and even develop some things on their own, applications, drills, etc.. A person at this level ought to be able to take control of his own practice and training, and ought to be able to improve and progress even if he never learns another piece of the formal curriculum.

In my opinion, any “advanced” material that exists at higher black belt level should be kind of unnecessary. If it exists, and if you have learned it, it is useful stuff. But, if you haven’t learned it or it does not exist in your system, then you are not really missing anything.

Once you reach black belt, in my opinion, you should be able to take control of your own training. There should not be anything that you now “need” to learn. Learning continues for a lifetime, but you should have received an education that gives you the tools to learn as you go and not necessary to be in a formal instruction environment.

It’s kind of like if you earned a degree in English Literature, you have the education to read and critically consider pretty much anything. You don’t need to be in a classroom setting to appreciate the next thing you read.

 

[CB Jones]

In my sons style...you learn all the techniques by 1st Dan. After that, it is about striving to better understand and apply those techniques.

 

[Buka]

^^ Same in American Karate as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where do you get stuff to work on now?

There are three main ways I figure out what I want to work on:

1. I look at what I know how to do and ask if it's really any good. Some of it I just need to improve on. Some of it, I need to explore and figure out if it's really useful, and I'll put real time into that. If it isn't directly applicable (can't really be expected to be used in a fight), I figure out if it's useful as a drill. If it doesn't fit either use, it needs work or it needs to go.
2. Cross-training. A couple of years ago I spent time taking private lessons in FMA (actually, a blend of FMA and Jujitsu), and I continue to work on some of the fundamentals I picked up there, either for my own use, or to build parts into what I teach.
3. I look for interesting material in videos. I have enough grappling experience that I can take a video of all but the most technical grappling moves, and work out what the principles are that are involved. Then I can work on that.

But really, I don't spend most of my time working on material for me, these days. I'm mostly happy with what I know for my own use right now., so I just need stuff to tinker with. Most of my exploration and experimenting is to improve what I teach to others - and how I teach it. I'll probably hit a point sometime when I'll go back to focusing more on my own stuff. I suspect that'll come if I manage to get my body to hold together so I can get into a competition or two.

 

[Buka]

In my sons style...you learn all the techniques by 1st Dan. After that, it is about striving to better understand and apply those techniques.

Fortunately it doesn't take long applying and understanding those techniques. Just a couple dozen dog leap years. Part time a little longer.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Where do you get stuff to work on now?

My foundation in striking comes from boxing and Muay Thai. You can learn the official "curricula" of both arts in a few weeks. Then you can spend decades learning how to master that small catalog of techniques.

My grappling foundation comes from BJJ. In BJJ, there are always new techniques available to learn because the BJJ research laboratories are always coming up with new moves. You can pick those up from your training partners, from seminars, from instructional videos, from watching and analyzing innovative competitors, or from experimenting on your own. It's kind of fun learning new material that way, but I get the greatest satisfaction from learning how to improve some fundamental technique that I've been doing for 20 years. I learn how to do that from … my training partners, from seminars, from instructional videos, from watching and analyzing innovative competitors, or from experimenting on my own.

 

[Balrog]

Yet interestingly enough they’re still learning for years and years after they learned the “curriculum.”

Of course. Once you stop learning, you stagnate and die.