Black Belts and Poor Kicks

[SPX]

Passing the coursework does not require one to be a gymnast, in any school that teaches something that deserves to be called "martial arts". It should require that you be able to perform specific techniques properly and with power. There's no reasonable reason to expect that your kick be done at a full split, after doing a double back flip with a half twist. That's gymnastics, not martial arts.

To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.

How about a spinning hook kick, head height? Do you feel that any TKD black belt should be capable of that, or at least should've been at the time he/she received their grading?

 

[Dirty Dog]

How about a spinning hook kick, head height? Do you feel that any TKD black belt should be capable of that, or at least should've been at the time he/she received their grading?

Spinning hook kick, yes. Head high? No. The utililty of high kicks is very debateable, and while I personally think they can be useful, they're certainly less useful and less common than lower kicks.

At some point, I hope to be allowed to strap a black belt around my wife. I do not think she's likely to throw a spinning hook kick to anybodies head. She started training way too late in life to reasonably be expected to develop that degree of flexibility. She can, however, deliver a spinning hook kick to your ribs that will make you unhappy.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.

I think it would be more like doing 35 x 13 in your head... a little challenging but not too difficult if you have aptitude.

 

[ACJ]

Spinning hook kick, yes. Head high? No. The utililty of high kicks is very debateable, and while I personally think they can be useful, they're certainly less useful and less common than lower kicks.

At some point, I hope to be allowed to strap a black belt around my wife. I do not think she's likely to throw a spinning hook kick to anybodies head. She started training way too late in life to reasonably be expected to develop that degree of flexibility. She can, however, deliver a spinning hook kick to your ribs that will make you unhappy.

While agree about the general lack of utility of high kicks in terms of self defence (even kicks in general are a lower percentage movement), I quite strongly disagree with the idea of being too old to become or retain flexibility. The vast majority of the population can achieve the level of flexibility required to do high kicks in a relatively short amount of time, with the appropriate work and training.

I have trained many people to this level of flexibility, notably including a student who started martial arts unable to touch their toes or kick above their knee at the young age of 76 years.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Passing the coursework does not require one to be a gymnast, in any school that teaches something that deserves to be called "martial arts". It should require that you be able to perform specific techniques properly and with power. There's no reasonable reason to expect that your kick be done at a full split, after doing a double back flip with a half twist. That's gymnastics, not martial arts.

To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.

I don't think a tornado kick is all that difficult to do, unless your tornado kick is different from mine. A step by step breakdown of the technique should allow almost anyone to perform it. They may not look like a Korean Tiger, but they should be able to demonstrate the understanding of the technique.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I don't think a tornado kick is all that difficult to do, unless your tornado kick is different from mine. A step by step breakdown of the technique should allow almost anyone to perform it. They may not look like a Korean Tiger, but they should be able to demonstrate the understanding of the technique.

I agree regarding the tornado kick, its certainly not a difficult kick, and any decent black belt should be able to do one. We dont tend to teach them unless a student asks, and Ive seen many a black belt go from never having done one to being proficient at them in the space of one lesson.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think it would be more like doing 35 x 13 in your head... a little challenging but not too difficult if you have aptitude.

Hairs may be split, but the bottom line is that gymnastics are not a fundamental part of any martial arts program.

 

[Dirty Dog]

While agree about the general lack of utility of high kicks in terms of self defence (even kicks in general are a lower percentage movement), I quite strongly disagree with the idea of being too old to become or retain flexibility. The vast majority of the population can achieve the level of flexibility required to do high kicks in a relatively short amount of time, with the appropriate work and training.

I have trained many people to this level of flexibility, notably including a student who started martial arts unable to touch their toes or kick above their knee at the young age of 76 years.

When you start training at 50+, after having two vertebrae replaced with titanium (not a cage, not rods, totally removed) then let's see you do this.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't think a tornado kick is all that difficult to do, unless your tornado kick is different from mine. A step by step breakdown of the technique should allow almost anyone to perform it. They may not look like a Korean Tiger, but they should be able to demonstrate the understanding of the technique.

I have a complete understanding of the technique. 30 years ago, I could do it. Now, I'm not going to even try.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree regarding the tornado kick, its certainly not a difficult kick, and any decent black belt should be able to do one. We dont tend to teach them unless a student asks, and Ive seen many a black belt go from never having done one to being proficient at them in the space of one lesson.

Then by your definition I guess I am not, not will I ever again be, a "decent" black belt. I'll do my best to live with the disappointment though...

 

[ACJ]

When you start training at 50+, after having two vertebrae replaced with titanium (not a cage, not rods, totally removed) then let's see you do this.

Like I said, range of people have been trained, similar situations and arguably more difficult problems have already been overcome. I find the main barrier age and old injuries present are not the physical limitations that have developed, but the attitude of it being an excuse for not trying overcome some of less solid limitations.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Then by your definition I guess I am not, not will I ever again be, a "decent" black belt. I'll do my best to live with the disappointment though...

you could do one dirty dog break the kick down and its really quite simpl if you just go for waist high. I have a mate who wanted to learn one (and he has never done any martial arts in his life) and he was doing them within a couple of hours, pretty ordinary ones, but he was doing them.

 

[SPX]

Spinning hook kick, yes. Head high? No. The utililty of high kicks is very debateable, and while I personally think they can be useful, they're certainly less useful and less common than lower kicks.

The thing about TKD is that it is largely defined by its physically demanding techniques. When you (or at least most people) think of TKD, they thinking of high kicks, spinning kicks, aerial kicks, etc. That is largely what sets it apart from other styles and makes it its own thing.

The thing is that if someone doesn't have the aptitude or physical ability to do these kind of things then there are other martial arts that may be better suited to their body type or personal inclinations. Pretty much all karate styles focus more on power and less on finesse, where lower kicks are the norm and less athleticism is expected. I don't see the need in trying to fit a square peg into a round hole unless there are just no other MA schools around.

At some point, I hope to be allowed to strap a black belt around my wife. I do not think she's likely to throw a spinning hook kick to anybodies head. She started training way too late in life to reasonably be expected to develop that degree of flexibility. She can, however, deliver a spinning hook kick to your ribs that will make you unhappy.

I wouldn't underestimate her (or yourself). Anyone can become flexible with the right training. It just may require that you commit half an hour or so a day specifically to focused stretching for, say, three to six weeks.

 

[SPX]

I think it would be more like doing 35 x 13 in your head... a little challenging but not too difficult if you have aptitude.

I agree. Tornado kicks are actually pretty simple.

Now 540 or 720 kicks . . . that would more more like "calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head."

 

[SPX]

Here you go: Splits in three weeks.

I haven't done this program, and I doubt anyone who is particularly inflexible with get all the way to the splits in three weeks, but it looks like a very basic but solid routine that I'm sure would greatly improve anyone's flexibility.

http://drillobsession.com/2006/09/03/flexibility-to-the-maxstretch-your-splits-in-3-weeks/

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I have to agree regarding flexibility, a half hour a night achieves a lot. I do think its a shame that tkd is defined by high, flashy gymnasic style techniques. Tkd has so much more to offer, and flashy kicks take too much valuable class time away from learning martial arts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The thing about TKD is that it is largely defined by its physically demanding techniques. When you (or at least most people) think of TKD, they thinking of high kicks, spinning kicks, aerial kicks, etc. That is largely what sets it apart from other styles and makes it its own thing.

I took my first TKD lesson when I was 7. I've studied other arts as well.
30 years ago, I might have agreed with you. And at that time, I could do a lot of pretty nifty flying spinning back flipping gymnastic kicks. Not any more.
Those kicks can be fun, and they are impressive at demos. They are not, however, what TKD is.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I took my first TKD lesson when I was 7. I've studied other arts as well.
30 years ago, I might have agreed with you. And at that time, I could do a lot of pretty nifty flying spinning back flipping gymnastic kicks. Not any more.
Those kicks can be fun, and they are impressive at demos. They are not, however, what TKD is.

so very very true, and if more people realised this tkd wouldnt have the reputation it has.

 

[SPX]

I do think its a shame that tkd is defined by high, flashy gymnasic style techniques. Tkd has so much more to offer, and flashy kicks take too much valuable class time away from learning martial arts.

I guess it depends on what we're calling flashy, but I've seen a lot of flashy kicks score in competition. Personally, it was the spinning/flying stuff that got me interested in TKD as a kid and I still find myself looking for any good opportunity to throw kicks like that. They're fun.

 

[SPX]

I took my first TKD lesson when I was 7. I've studied other arts as well.
30 years ago, I might have agreed with you. And at that time, I could do a lot of pretty nifty flying spinning back flipping gymnastic kicks. Not any more.
Those kicks can be fun, and they are impressive at demos. They are not, however, what TKD is.

so very very true, and if more people realised this tkd wouldnt have the reputation it has.

No love for the Tiger Team then?