Black Belts and Poor Kicks

[jks9199]

Folks -- the general policy here is not to discuss, and especially complain, about rep in public. If you have a problem with rep that you receive, please notify a staff member. The general practice here is to "sign" rep with your username; the current software settings don't automatically share that with users. Bob may be able to change that; I don't know.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Got it JKS, won't do it again.

A bit off topic, but I'd like to see it be a requirement to put in your screen name when you rep someone. I've received many + rep that I would like to have at least said thank you in return. Conversely, if you get a neg rep it would be nice to have something more substantial than an anonymous drive-by from someone that doesn't agree with you but doesn't leave their name/screen name. That doesn't prove or solve anything.

I'd rather have the chance to actually explain the point, which I understood wouldn't be taken for granted when I posted it. Other than that I don't care. Who knows, said person might have learned something or maybe I would have. I think a lot of coaches would agree with it though.

although to be honest I don't think disagreeing with a point I was making is a reasonable justification for negative rep, I wasn't being insulting or rude.

 

[jks9199]

For more on the Reputation System, see this thread.

 

[WaterGal]

Yes, specific moves change, principles don't. I had to learn some new techniques when I started Judo, but did I have to learn how to fight again? No, and there's no crossover in those rulesets at all. I'd bet if you were asked to do a wrestling or a judo match, you'd do better than you'd expect just because you have an understanding of fighting developed from tkd and hkd. That's usually my experience.

EDIT: I guess it has a bit to do with your learning style as well. I am not one to learn things step by step, I'm a big picture person. Probably why I see things this way. For example, now that I have an understanding of what I'm doing when I spar I don't even really pay attention to my stances, or my hand position, or anything else.

I think maybe I misunderstood what you meant. By "principles", are you talking about the mindset of fighting? E.g., the heightened alertness, awareness of your (and your opponent's) striking range, ability and willingness to give and take a hit with decent power, etc.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Poomsae/Kata, several types of sparring, bunkai. How else?

To a limited extent MMA competition has shown us arts which are primarily striking or grappling are not complete.

In a broader contect, no (sane) soldier going into combat would want to learn only weaponless styles.

But then again before a discussion such as this could have any sort of sensible dialogue there would first have to be an agreement as to "What is a "Martial Art"".

One might argue that combat or sport specific disciplnes lack elements neccessary to be called an "Art".

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Unfortunately, a question like, "what is a martial art" falls into the same category as;

• What is a black belt?
• How long to black belt?
• How long from one Dan level to the next?
• Is SD better than sport/is sport better than SD?
• How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll sucker?

Ask 20 different people and you'll likely get 20 different answers. Which is why it is nigh difficult to arrive at a universal answer. Which is why TKD can be pure sport or pure SD. Which is why in Korea a child can earn a BB in a year and in other countries it is 3-5 years for the same belt and other arts maybe not till year 10.

 

[Tez3]

Unfortunately, a question like, "what is a martial art" falls into the same category as;

• What is a black belt?
• How long to black belt?
• How long from one Dan level to the next?
• Is SD better than sport/is sport better than SD?
• How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll sucker?

Ask 20 different people and you'll likely get 20 different answers. Which is why it is nigh difficult to arrive at a universal answer. Which is why TKD can be pure sport or pure SD. Which is why in Korea a child can earn a BB in a year and in other countries it is 3-5 years for the same belt and other arts maybe not till year 10.

And I don't even know what a Tootsie Roll sucker is! sounds rude (hopefully!)

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And I don't even know what a Tootsie Roll sucker is! sounds rude (hopefully!)

LOL! It was an old cartoon commercial when I was a kid. A Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop is like a lolly pop with a tootsie roll at the center. You'd lick your way through the lolly pop and then chew on the center. Funny how useless trivia floats around in the mind:bangahead:

 

[Tez3]

LOL! It was an old cartoon commercial when I was a kid. A Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop is like a lolly pop with a tootsie roll at the center. You'd lick your way through the lolly pop and then chew on the center. Funny how useless trivia floats around in the mind:bangahead:

A tootsie..a girl? help me out here, I'm off sick with tonsillitis and need something to really cheer me up lol! Funnily enough everyone else is enjoying the silence because I can't talk, can't imagine why!

Still it gives me time to ponder on what 'poor kicks' are. Some places judge kicks by how technically perfect they look whereas a less perfect looking kick can pack a wallop. Do people want the pretty or the effective?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hope you feel better!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How high of a KUKKIWON black belt can a person be at your school and still have poor kicks? I see alot of kids and older adults getting first poom / dan and have poor kicks. I do see it in higher dans but to a lesser extent.

At your school, can a person never have a decent kick (e.g., a basic tornado kick against a pad, not even in competition) and still rise to a higher black belt (2nd, 3rd, or 4th)? Does age factor in at your school? I read on the forums here previously that KKW starts to get serious about the testing at 4th dan - how about your school?

I mean coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height). Believe it or not, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I really am curious how high a person can go with poor kicks, perhaps due to age, injury issues, or just being very unathletic.

The school where I trained most recently topped out at fifth because the school owner's rank wasn't high enough to grade anyone any higher than that. Good attitude, hard work, and commitment go a long way with him. Students who were over thirty five (and who didn't start at a young age) who reached dan grades tended to kick like thirty five years and older men and women who had been training for three to five years while students who were in their late teens to early twenties who reached dan grades tended to kick like boys and girls in their late teens to early twenties who had been training for the same length of time.

Aside from maxing out the instructor's ability to promote within the organization, there was no upper limit placed on students from what I could tell, regardless of how perfect/high their kicks were. If you were a first dan and you could do Koryo well but couldn't kick higher than mid thigh, then you weren't going to win a pumse competition and probably wouldn't do very well sparring in tournaments, but it would not affect your advancement.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I think maybe I misunderstood what you meant. By "principles", are you talking about the mindset of fighting? E.g., the heightened alertness, awareness of your (and your opponent's) striking range, ability and willingness to give and take a hit with decent power, etc.

The principles of fighting are distance, timing, positioning. They are the essence of combat in any form and they never change. Having fought both grappling and Taekwondo matches over and over again, those three things are the only common ground and, not coincidentally, by far the most important thing to learn. Even more so when the risk is serious injury rather than giving up a point or getting submitted.

 

[ETinCYQX]

To a limited extent MMA competition has shown us arts which are primarily striking or grappling are not complete.

In a broader contect, no (sane) soldier going into combat would want to learn only weaponless styles.

But then again before a discussion such as this could have any sort of sensible dialogue there would first have to be an agreement as to "What is a "Martial Art"".

One might argue that combat or sport specific disciplnes lack elements neccessary to be called an "Art".

This is more or less why I think the idea of wanting to be complete in the sense of knowing everything is overrated.

 

[Balrog]

What's a bad kick? Let's ignore the flash: no butterfly kicks, no jump side kicks, etc. Let's stick to basic front kick, side kick, round kick and maybe a reverse side kick.

Height is immaterial. Is the kick powerful? Are the mechanics there: chamber, extension, rechamber, recovery? How about focus, balance and hand position? If most of those are missing, then one might say the kick is bad. If they're all there, then it's a good kick.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What's a bad kick? ... Let's stick to basic front kick, side kick, round kick and maybe a reverse side kick....Height is immaterial. Is the kick powerful? Are the mechanics there: chamber, extension, rechamber, recovery? How about focus, balance and hand position? If most of those are missing, then one might say the kick is bad. If they're all there, then it's a good kick.

I believe that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The proof of the kick is in the speed, power, and accuracy. Taekwondo is a kicking art, so I don't agree that height is immaterial. In my opinion, if I say "do your best kick to my head and I won't move" and you can't land a kick to my head, you shouldn't be a BB in TKD. TKD is a kicking art. That's not to say that a much lower kick isn't effective, just that to me, a kick to the head is pretty basic.

In terms of the basics "basic front kick, side kick, round kick and maybe a reverse side kick" I think that is a little limited. Given that TKD is a kicking art, I would add spinning hook kick to the mix.

In my post, when I wrote of a "poor" kick, I was thinking of balance and control. I think if you have those, then the corresponding speed, power and accuracy of that kick are there too.

 

[SPX]

In my opinion, if I say "do your best kick to my head and I won't move" and you can't land a kick to my head, you shouldn't be a BB in TKD. TKD is a kicking art. That's not to say that a much lower kick isn't effective, just that to me, a kick to the head is pretty basic.

I totally agree, provided we're talking about two fighters of the same height. If you can't get your leg up that high then, barring some legitimate physical impairment, you're just not trying hard enough. I've been pretty lazy lately with my flexibility training and am like a foot and a half off the ground with my splits and can still kick head high.