Black Belts??

[wade]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a non-contact system. My mistake. There is a difference and I can see why the women in your school wouldn't have a problem with it. In my school, Olympic style full contact TaeKwonDo there would definitely be a problem. When you are not actually hitting some one it does make a difference. Since we tend to go with "body displacement" to show the power of the impact we do tend to temper beating on the lower weight classes with full power. Once again, I appoligize...............................................As for my students, yeah, they do OK. Thanks for asking. Good response, thank you. I tend to forget there are other systems out there that don't actually try to bang the snot out of each other when they spar. Have a safe and happy New Year.

 

[kachi]

The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching.

I agree with DArnold here, I think this may be style or school specific, because we have seperate ranks for teaching than we do for martial ability. You may be a 4th dan black belt in our system but if you are not willing to or have no experience teaching your not allowed to teach. And belt rank outweighs teaching title. Just my 2 cents.

 

[morph4me]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a non-contact system. My mistake. There is a difference and I can see why the women in your school wouldn't have a problem with it. In my school, Olympic style full contact TaeKwonDo there would definitely be a problem. When you are not actually hitting some one it does make a difference. Since we tend to go with "body displacement" to show the power of the impact we do tend to temper beating on the lower weight classes with full power. Once again, I appoligize...............................................As for my students, yeah, they do OK. Thanks for asking. Good response, thank you. I tend to forget there are other systems out there that don't actually try to bang the snot out of each other when they spar. Have a safe and happy New Year.

No apology necessary, I've really enjoyed this exchange.

I wouldn't call it a non contact system, but maybe I can explain better in the context of what you do.

If I were in your dojo, and your criteria for showing the power of impact was "body displacement" I wouldn't need to go as hard to displace a smaller person as I would a larger person, but I would go at them hard enough to demonstrate the power of my technique by displacing ther body, and it would be harder for a black belt than a lower rank. I hope that clears things up.

Once again, thanks for the exchange, Safe and Happy New Year to you too.

 

[bydand]

Morph & Wade, you 2 have just showed why I like this forum so much. Two different perspectives of an issue and instead of just flaming each other, a few posts later and you are both looking at the question from the same angle. I agree with both of you in this issue as well, a BB in any school should be the same as another BB in the same school, reguardless of age or gender. I know as a 6'2" 245# 43 year old construction worker, I've been handed my butt a few times from someone I would have considered a mere girl. Does she deserve her BB at 14? In this case yes she does. Granted she is a exceptional girl who shows great maturity and skill, and the youngest I have ever seen in this art. I have to say those would be the biggest factors in granting the BB in my eyes, maturity and skill. Do I attack her as hard as I do the 6'6" 325# welder in the same class? No, we are also going after body responce and i don't have to go as hard with someone who is less than half my weight and 8 or 10" shorter than I am, where I do with the welder.

 

[morph4me]

That is also the reason I like this forum so much, mutual respect among most of the members, no flame wars, just an exchange of ideas, and if we couldn't see each others points of view, we would agree to disagree.

 

[matt.m]

Gee, I have seen 12-14 yr old tkd dans in Moo Sul Kwan, They get the 1st dan belt and then retest at 15 or 16. Not even a possibility in Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido. No way it will happen. You aren't old enough to do the locks until at least 14 and that is for safety reasons.

 

[DArnold]

I agree with DArnold here, I think this may be style or school specific, because we have seperate ranks for teaching than we do for martial ability. You may be a 4th dan black belt in our system but if you are not willing to or have no experience teaching your not allowed to teach. And belt rank outweighs teaching title. Just my 2 cents.

Our phylosophy is a bit different.

Any instructor will tell you that they have learned just as much teaching as they have working out. Therefore, you can choose not to teach but you will not become a higher rank in our organization.

This prevents what we call TBB's (tourist black belts) - those who wish to become masters but have never had the experience/responsibility of mentoriing someone to black belt. To use this is akin to someone wanting to become a doctor but not wanting to take gross anatomy. It just doesn't/shouldn't happen.

With us you must be able to teach anything below your rank. It is part of the requirements. That way you do not have physically capapable students who don't have the mental understanding of what they are doing.

How would you become a master/higher rank without learning the important aspect of teaching and all that comes with it (mentally)

WADE
I think there is a big misconception here on fighting/sparring. Contact lever has nothing to do with how you fight.

Contact level only has to do with focus.

We find that turning down your sparring level based on rank/size/gender/age is a big waste of time. We fight any lower rank the way we fight any black belt. The only difference is focus. We believe that when you slow down your fighting you are patranizing the student and wasting time. You might as well go danceing as you will get the same out of it.

Most time seniors take this attitude and allow their minds to shut off when sparring juniors. I tell them to fight hard and they think that that means hit hard. Big mistake. Otherwise they dance around slowly and slap at the junior. This is a problem with seniors, keeping their minds engaged. There are so many mind sets you can work on when sparring with a junior that you don't have to patronize them. Try these:

• Block everything thrown - never get touched
• In every clash, always be the first to score
• Never let the junior get in range - withour running away
• Score first using only only one technique - not a flurry
• Use techniques from your highest form/pattern only

...

These are just some things seniors can do to keep their mind engaged and in every instance there is no need to fight slow or light.
As long as you have focus!

 

[Rich Parsons]

There's a good discussion of this here.

While I have a problem with children too young to walk across the parking lot without holding an adult's hand receiving black belts, I am not willing to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say "no one below age X can be a black belt". I think there is a level of maturity necessary before one confers that rank on anyone - and I have met children who have that level of maturity, and adults who do not. A good instructor is able to determine who is, and is not, ready for a black belt - mentally as well as physically.

Kacey et al,

I like this "While I have a problem with children too young to walk across the parking lot without holding an adult's hand receiving black belts".

My 15 y/o nephew recently asked me why he could drive a car soon but even at 18 not drink or get a Concealed Pistol License. I smiled and said there are tages of maturity and right now in our state at 16 to 19 all your points for driving infractions are double points and you must be 10 months free from accident (* even if not your fault *) and ticket free even if this means you go out indefinitely to get off of probation.

So let us assume that you are free to drive after 19 and no longer on probation, but you cannot still drink until you are 21. Because it is kind of like being on probation to show you can make mature decisions.

I do like your comments that I quoted though. It kind of puts things into perspective.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hmmmm, let's see, people that are under a certain age, (pick your own) should not be considered for black belt because they are not mature adults and can't keep up with adult BB's. Gosh, there are many "adult" BB's that can't keep up with other adult BB's. How many of you here would like to get in the ring with and Olympic level TKD player? I wouldn't. Does this make them any less a BB? In my opinion, No, I don't think so. Of course I'm KKW so maybe I'm a little biased, right terry? I have kids that are Pooms, jr. BB's and I am quite happy with them thank you very much. In fact, I think I'll keep them and maybe promote some more to replace them as they get older.

If the definition for any rank be it White 1 or Black or what have you, is that the student can perform a certain series of techniques only then I could see your point. If the student also is onely allowed to spar under certain conditions with safety equipement and always contolled by others, and this is the only time the sparring occurs I can see your point. This is education and application under controller situations. The students learn when they can use it and how to use it.

If part of a definition of a certain rank is to have some aspect of self-defense this is where having a child or someone younger with rank might be of concern.

Personaly anyone of any rank can get hit. No matter the size or years of training. Yet, to have a child think they can survive an attack from an adult, could be misleading. To run away, and get help yes.

 

[jks9199]

Our phylosophy is a bit different.

Any instructor will tell you that they have learned just as much teaching as they have working out. Therefore, you can choose not to teach but you will not become a higher rank in our organization.

This prevents what we call TBB's (tourist black belts) - those who wish to become masters but have never had the experience/responsibility of mentoriing someone to black belt. To use this is akin to someone wanting to become a doctor but not wanting to take gross anatomy. It just doesn't/shouldn't happen.

With us you must be able to teach anything below your rank. It is part of the requirements. That way you do not have physically capapable students who don't have the mental understanding of what they are doing.

How would you become a master/higher rank without learning the important aspect of teaching and all that comes with it (mentally)

While I agree that any advanced student, especially a black belt, should be capable of teaching in a system where that is expected of black belts (some systems do separate teaching proficiency/license from technical proficiency), and that no matter what, every advanced student should be able to help a less advanced student improve when they train together -- not everyone is a good teacher. Some people just can't communicate the skills as well as others; they can learn ways to do so better, but they'll never really be a good teacher. This doesn't mean that they aren't technically skilled; their talents just don't lie in teaching. And it's a disservice both to them and students to force them to teach.

Sure, they're missing out on much of the learning that comes from breaking something down in order to teach it -- but that alone doesn't justify requiring them to teach. Forcing someone to teach that isn't interested or good at it doesn't help them or the student; it all but guarantees a poor outcome.

I'm not a fan of junior black belts or giving black belts to kids. But I choose to train in a system that doesn't do that. If I know someone who wants their kid to be a black belt -- then I'm going to refer them to schools that will do so.

To me, a black belt is a recognition of technical skill, dedicated training, and some personal maturity. In my system, it's in indication that you may instruct without supervision -- but not a guarantee that you will or can.

 

[morph4me]

One of the requirements for black belt in our system is 1 year teaching as a brown belt under the supervision of a black belt. By watching the brown belt teach, the black belt has an opportunity to mentor them and make sure that their understanding of the techniques, is complete and correct. Whether the student chooses to teach is up them, but there is no doubt that they can do it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And at what age do you think is to young to recieve a black belt?

My first style, back in the Stone Age, was Jujitsu and you simply could not get a black belt before 18 back then and I still feel the same today. So anyone under 18, in my opinion, is too young.

And believe it or not I was far under 18 at the time and I agreed with it even then.

 

[DArnold]

While I agree that any advanced student, especially a black belt, should be capable of teaching in a system where that is expected of black belts (some systems do separate teaching proficiency/license from technical proficiency), and that no matter what, every advanced student should be able to help a less advanced student improve when they train together -- not everyone is a good teacher. Some people just can't communicate the skills as well as others; they can learn ways to do so better, but they'll never really be a good teacher. This doesn't mean that they aren't technically skilled; their talents just don't lie in teaching. And it's a disservice both to them and students to force them to teach.

Sure, they're missing out on much of the learning that comes from breaking something down in order to teach it -- but that alone doesn't justify requiring them to teach. Forcing someone to teach that isn't interested or good at it doesn't help them or the student; it all but guarantees a poor outcome.

I'm not a fan of junior black belts or giving black belts to kids. But I choose to train in a system that doesn't do that. If I know someone who wants their kid to be a black belt -- then I'm going to refer them to schools that will do so.

To me, a black belt is a recognition of technical skill, dedicated training, and some personal maturity. In my system, it's in indication that you may instruct without supervision -- but not a guarantee that you will or can.

We don't force anyone to teach, just as we don't force anyone to learn how to do a front kick.
I guess if you do want to use that terminology then you can not use it for one and not another.
Yes, I force my student to learn kicks, I force them to learn patterns, I force them to learn sparring, I force them to learn teaching.
Teaching is just another aspect of the art that as an instructor I must show them how to do.

You show them the beauty in kicks.
You show them the beauty in patters
You show them the beauty in self defense
Do you show them the beauty in teaching?
Do you have a curriculum that is current through all ranks or do you just say, "Your a black belt now so go teach"

With many I found they were never taught/challenged with teaching or shown the fun or beauty so many times it is missing in a curriculum.

However, allowing the student to decide what the want to do, and not do, is not an acceptable form of teaching with us.

While I agree everyone is not a natural at teaching I believe that they can learn. Teaching is an art like kicking. This is not to say that you just throw them out there and tell them to teach. You have to teach them "how to teach". Now if they choose to do so or not then that is the students prerogative. Just like they can choose to practice their kicks or not.

However, Do you believe both should have an affect on their rank progression?

I find that all students will rise to the level that you expect of them. Also that it is an instructors responsibility to put hurdles in front of a student and that they will always have the option to quite.

I find it a disservice to let students use the excuse that they are not good at teaching or don't like it to allow them to slide. As an instructor it is my job to show them the way past this.

What if you allow this exact excuse/logic for physical competency in your MA? Is that acceptable? Why would this logic be acceptable in one and not the other?

I don't want to do patterns because I am not good at them!

Another question, for these people who do not wish to give back to their art or teach, how high in rank do you allow them to go?

Do you allow people to become masters who only show up twice a week and that is all they do?

Can you become a master without teaching simply because you learn the physical part of a MA only?

Where do you draw the line once you say this excuse is ok?

 

[Tez3]

I find the age differences in what you can and can't do between our countries interesting. Most MA clubs I know over here will give BB to 16 years old (rarely younger) if they merit it but they are cadet belts only not full Dan grades. This allows the student to feel they are not being held back by being young. They are rewarded, if you like, for their hard work and dedication but not given the burden of responsiblilty a Dan grade would give them. They get the respect for their work but also know they have a way to go and work hard for their Dan grade.
Here the youngest you can get a driving licence is 17 while you can vote and drink legally at 18.

 

[searcher]

I believe that it is up to the instructor on an individual basis. We cannot set out the same judgement for evey person without some level of flexibility. I have had many adults that were not of a maturity to receive a BB even at 40 and I have had students that were in their low teens that were very mature. The same goes with knowledge and fighting skill. If you feel that the student is too young then you should have a junior BB grading and then when the time is right you can test them for an adult grade. That is what I do BTW.

I am curious as to how many are saying that it is too young are under BB rank? I often see a level of jealousy that arises when a young student rises to BB and an older student is not there yet. They feel that they are deserving and the other is not, so they get very jealous and are full of resentment for younger students out-ranking them.

 

[arnisador]

As a rule, I can't see giving out black belts to kids younger than 16. But it all depends on what a black belt means to you. To me, it should mean that you can defend yourself against a typical attacker, not a comparably-sized attacker. The average 8 year old black belt would get pummeled by the average mugger. But I suppose if you practice kyudo, or even a sport like Judo, this might not seem like a relevant criterion.

 

[Tez3]

Although they don't grade in MMA I know several 14-16 year old amateur MMA fighters who would kick *** in any street situation.At 16 most of them go to semi pro rules, then at 18 they go onto pro rules. Many of them are also higher grades including Dan grades in traditional styles too.

 

[CuongNhuka]

As my understanding of a Black belt seems to be quite different from everyone here I find some interesting concepts in your logic.

Your comments touch on some tangeble and intangeble items.

You say, "The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching."

So you base some of your judgement on the ability to teach.

Is this mearly your concept? Your schools? Your organizations?
And if it is that important wouldn't your requirements/curriculum (of you/your school/your organization) make sure these items were met if you were to promote someone?

Secondly you say, "...Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity"

I find this interesting as many students as well as high ranks think it is their god given right to be promoted because they have been around X days working out (Even more amaziang are those without and instructor)

In the orient you are not considered an adult until 40!

A vast majority of schools only base testing/promotions on things like physical ability and time (which I think is only half of what we should be doing)

So my question is: How do you teach (and more importantly) test a students maturity in your class?

I find that trying to draw a concrete line in the sand will only cause you ten-fold more problems as you are trying to do.

We acctuly agree, to a degree. So to reply:

It should be based on ability to teach. But like all other tests there should also be requirements of time and techniqucal knowledge.

The Cuong Nhu Oreintal Martial Arts Assocation (or CNOMAA for short) will not allow anyone under the age of 16 to be a black belt. And after that it is up to time (minimum of 4 years, 6 is the norm though) and grade (must know all techniques taught up to that point). Not to mention the person must be mature enough to handle the honor. It's only cloth, but it's still an honor.

Teach maturity: cann't be taught in the traditional sense.
Test maturity: give them a responsability. Like leading warm up, or teaching someone

There you go

 

[Christina05]

I love all the feed back its really awsome to know you can ask a serious question and get diffrent answers with out causing a war. And just to let everyone know I do read each and every reply that is posted. Everyone has some good valid reasons and some awsome points on the matter. I have asked this question over and over again to diffrent people even people not into martial arts and gotten similar responses. As for me I got a BB at a young age and to be totally honest I worked hard for it. Some say this is a question of maturity and like most of you said I too have seen adults at age 40 not be as mature as a 12 year old. So why give a 40 year old a BB and not the 12 year old. Which brings me to my next question what does a black belt mean to you? Better yet if they are given out like toys does it really mean anything? Any average joe blow can go out and buy a black belt but it doesnt make him a black belt. I guess the point I'm trying to make is you can pass a child off as a black belt but it doesnt make that child a black belt. I think if an instructor honestly has passed a student that is not deserving then maybe he is in his profession for the wrong reason.

 

[Kacey]

Which brings me to my next question what does a black belt mean to you?

Black belt, to me, is a beginning - proof that, in the eyes of my instructor, and his instructor, I met the minimum standard to truly begin to learn.

Better yet if they are given out like toys does it really mean anything?

It depends on who is giving them out - because even in McDojos, there are many truly deserving students, who, by the standards of their organization, are deserving of moving on to the next level. Some of them learn that the standards are different elsewhere, and some of them go on to earn black belts in other organizations and/or styles; some don't - does that make their achievement any less in their eyes - and yes, I know, if makes it less in the eyes of others who underwent more strenuous requirements, but that's not my point here. Certainly, there are students who receive black belts who shouldn't, and just as certainly, there are differences in standards between, and even within, organizations.

Who are we to judge what does, and does not, mean something to the person who attains it? Yes, it waters down the meaning of black belt for those of us who went through more strenuous processes - but that doesn't make it meaningless for those who don't.