Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...

[tshadowchaser]

a black belt may be a certain level of ability to do certain things but an instructor it dose not make. some people can do but will never be able to instruct for many reasons. maybe schools need to start having ranks and instructors certs (although I have seen instructors badges on 10 year olds also)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Points taken Dan, but yes, I do feel that it's a joke. My wording could probably have been better. Let me ask you this though...had I used your 2nd, more friendly option of voicing my disapproval of 5yr old BBs, do you think that the replies would be that much different?

Hard to say. The replies may have been less indignant.

I still remember saying the same kinds of things to Mangoman when he posted about kids with belts years ago. I thought that I was saying something that needed to be said. Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't, but my tone with him, looking back, generated much more heat than light.

If I say, "I disagree with giving a 5yr old a BB, because IMO, they're way too young, and they just do not have the ability to fully grasp, like someone who's older, what the belt is really all about, as well as having the ability to have a much more in depth understanding of the material." Do you think that someone still won't take offense to that? Maybe not like as if I said, "All 5yr old BBs are a joke!!" but given the fact that I'm still talking about their child, the fact that I disapprove, despite how much training they do per week, their understanding, etc, I'd still wager a guess feathers would be ruffled.

People take offence and have their feathers ruffled by all kinds of things. I'm not saying that we should walk on eggshells and seek never to offend. But at the same time, we all know that there are parents who read/post on this board who have children with dan ranks and who do not have the background to know why you or I might view it as a problem. Let's face it; a parent with a grade school student is probably significantly younger than I am and has no memory of martial arts prior to the Karate kid and the fitness/ninja craze of the eighties, which is arguably when the shift to children really happened in the States.

If our board exists to disseminate knowledge and share information in a friendly, informal fashion, it behooves us to keep in mind who might be reading our posts and whether or not our words are simply making them more defensive and causing them to dig their heels in rather than reach them and educate them.

And I certainly do not hold myself up as a saint in this area; my own past posting history is filled with comments than generate more heat than light.

Regarding the handing out rank comment. Do you feel that what I said holds any truth, when I made the comment that some schools may cater to the child, out of fear of losing a student? During my time teaching, I've had more than 1 parent approach me and ask why Joey is getting promoted, but their child isn't, especially since they both started at the same time. Well ma'am, joey shows up 4-5 times a week, takes a private a month, clearly trains at home, and your child, well...I am lucky to see him twice a week, he fools around in class, doesn't seem like he trains at home...but you want me to promote him anyways? They're either going to take the hint or they're going to get pissed off and leave. I've seen is many times.

I phrased it as I did because I think that in many cases, it does hold truth. But I've seen enough exceptions that I'm not willing to generalize regarding kids with black belts.

As far as teachers being afraid...well, I pretty much covered that in the above reply as well. Hey, I understand that people need to make a living, but I'd rather not devalue my school or morals because someone is upset and leaves. IMO, I don't see anything wrong with a teacher being upfront with potential students, and making it clear from day 1, and outlining everything from attendance, to testing.

Again, I phrased my comment as I did because there is truth there as well. And I watched a former sabeom agonize over belting young kids, and finally, he gave in and adjusted his grading standards out of fear of losing students and of confrontation with parents. On the other hand, Puunui made a very strong case for belting kids, and I seriously doubt that fear of parents reactions played any part. And I have met very diligent instructors who firmly believe in black belts for younger students, fear playing no part in their reasoning.

As far as the belts...well, I could take 'em or leave 'em. When we have Arnis camps/seminars, nobody wears their belts. The upper belts always try to mix in with the lower ranks. It usually doesn't take much to figure out, simply by watching, who the higher belts are. It's like I always say, impress me with your skill and knowledge, not the number of stripes on your belt.

We don't wear belts in kendo. And it becomes pretty clear who senior students are to any casual onlooker.

With hapkido students, I only use six belts: white, yellow, green, blue, red, and red/black for kids or black for adults (I don't do stripes; just name at one end and the school at the other). I won't teach joint locking or manipulation in a children's class and I don't have enough students to even consider a separate belting program for children. This is strictly an issue related to joint and bone development in kids.

If I did have a children's self defence program, I might consider doing that, though it would be with the understanding that the grades are for that particular program. Would I have the kids' ranks terminate in a black belt? I'm undecided at this point, but as it is not on my radar for the near future, I don't feel pressed to make a choice in that area.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ill wait for his reply for specifics but If as he says they have no difference between a junior black belt and an adult black belt then in theory it should be option 2 since in most schools a black belt should be of the skill lvl to teach a basic class. If its option one then there is a difference between an adult rank and a junior rank even if they don't admit it

I have trained in a lot of schools and in none of them are shodan/chodan students required or expected to be able to teach a basic class. I have heard of that being the case in some arts/schools, but I would hardly consider it universal.

I don't know anything about the school where his daughter trains, so I have no opinion. However, I used to train at a school where the owner began giving teaching duties to minor students. This was without any real preparation for teaching and was mainly being done for the purpose of cheap labor. It was one of the reasons that I left that school.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Lets face it, many of us do not like the idea of a child black belt but the truth in the matter is most schools are supported by youth programs and if ranking the kids keeps the parents bringing them back then schools will continue to give out the ranks

 

[ballen0351]

I have trained in a lot of schools and in none of them are shodan/chodan students required or expected to be able to teach a basic class. I have heard of that being the case in some arts/schools, but I would hardly consider it universal.

I don't know anything about the school where his daughter trains, so I have no opinion. However, I used to train at a school where the owner began giving teaching duties to minor students. This was without any real preparation for teaching and was mainly being done for the purpose of cheap labor. It was one of the reasons that I left that school.

I didn't say anyone was required or expected to teach a class. I said a basic black belt should have the ability and skill level to teach a basic class.

 

[wingchun100]

Of course, and my apologies for not stating that. There certainly is nothing wrong with pointing out the good things. My teacher does that all the time. One class, we were doing some floor drills, going up and down the dojo, doing a series of blocks, strikes, etc. He stopped me and made a correction with the way I was executing the block/punch. I saw his approval when I made the correction.

Well, you have to give people hope for the future or you will have one less student.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I didn't say anyone was required or expected to teach a class. I said a basic black belt should have the ability and skill level to teach a basic class.

I know. I said required or expected to be able to teach a basic class. I included required because I actually do know of schools were shodans have some level of teaching as a requirement (though usually not soloing a class). Of course, these are not two year black belt programs either, but generally more like five or six.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Lets face it, many of us do not like the idea of a child black belt but the truth in the matter is most schools are supported by youth programs and if ranking the kids keeps the parents bringing them back then schools will continue to give out the ranks

In my opinion, awarding kids black belts is not so much the issue as the fact that schools jumped to do so without exploring other means of building youth programs. While I'm not against children with black belts in principle, I also don't feel that it should be a go-to solution. I can think of a lot of ways to reward kids and build a youth program that does not require the use of that particular badge.

The problem is that nothing is more recognizable to the public as a symbol of accomplishment in the martial arts as the black belt. And that is precisely why it was chosen: market cache.

At this point, railing against black belts for children is like railing against knighthood for pop stars and actors. It is institutionalized now and is not going away. In short, it has become part of the MA landscape.

Thus I feel that it is more important to emphasize integrity in grading and honesty about what the belt represents in a particular school or art. If the belt system is designed so that a five year old can meet the requirement, then fine; make the five year old meet those requirements, whatever they may be. If your system has different requirements based on the age of the student, then make the students meet those requirements, whatever they may be.

Of course, if a five year old can meet the requirements, please don't ask me to pay hundreds of dollars for my kid to test.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Should the black belt be placed on a pedestal the way it often is in the USA? Perhaps it should be seen as just another belt. I especially don't see why the black belt would be placed on a pedestal if your instructor is from Japan, as mine is.

 

[ballen0351]

Should the black belt be placed on a pedestal the way it often is in the USA? Perhaps it should be seen as just another belt. I especially don't see why the black belt would be placed on a pedestal if your instructor is from Japan, as mine is.

I don't think preventing a 5 year old from an adult belt is putting it on a pedestal. I'd say it goes for all belts a 5 yr old orange belt or blue or red or pink or purple belt shouldn't be the same as a 25 yr old.

 

[generalneon]

Nobodys poo-pooing your daughter. We are poo-pooing the practice of saying a 10 year old is the same level as a 28 yr old. It just isn't possible.

I disagree. If a street fight, perhaps not, that's just physics. It's not speed that kills, it's momentum that kills, and a larger individual would have far more momentum behind their strikes than a small kid. But the other aspects, retention of knowledge, displaying forms and fighting combinations, those can be equal to an older student, it just depends on the particular students.

When she competes does she compete against adults or is it by age groups? Im sorry but if you walked into any other type of business say you contacted a mechanics shop to get an oil change and a 10 year old walksout with a wrench to change you oil you would say "Is this a joke?" My son is 8 he can change oil in a car Ive showed him hes helped me and if I asked Im sure he could do it by himself. BUT that's not acceptable yet you think a 10 year old teaching self defense is acceptable? Sorry but that screams belt factory. Now it doesn't mean your daughter isn't working hard and learning but again seeing a 2nd dan 10 year old just isn't acceptable in most martial arts schools.

Core competitions are done with age groups, but competition for grand champion is open to all black belts. The analogy of a kid being employed and wrenching on a car is really getting off subject. There are national laws forbidding that. I'm sure that my kid could swing a mattock underground at the coal mine that her grandfather works at, but it would be illegal.

If you believe age doesn't matter then why do we have age limits for driving a car? My son is 8 and again he knows how to drive a car he drives my old jeeps all over our property. According to you if he can reach the pedals and see out the windshield he should get a license. There are developmental stages that need to be reached before someone is able to "get it." She is so young she doesn't even know what she doesn't get yet.

If your kid drives around on the streets, and gets pulled over, then they are breaking the law. Who exactly are the martial arts police? You? Different schools of martial arts have different rules that all members must follow, and if an age requirement for advancement is one of the rules, so be it, everyone has to follow their rules. However, if the concepts are grasped and displayed to satisfaction to a panel of judges, both physically and mentally, and their is no existingrule against age requirements, then their age should not be the deciding factor as to whether or not they earned advancement.

So again your showing a lack of getting it. If these "exotic" moves are in your style then someone along the way deemed them important for self defense. If not and its just for show then you need to find a new art

That was me making a point about the martial artist elitist attitude of, "This kid is too young to share the floor with me, maybe they'd be better served taking ballet lessons, and leaving the martial arts to the real martial artists. Now get off the floor, you're taking up valuable kicking room."

I Hope so

well I hope shes not getting into fights with other 10 year old girls since I cant think of any one else the size of a 10 year old girl but another 10 year old girl

Her training has taught her to not go looking for a fight, but if a fight finds her, to put their opponent down and make sure that they stay down, called I believe ilsa pilgar. Just one of the many concepts that she 'gets'.

 

[generalneon]

I understand. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but hopefully her test is a success next month.

Thank you.




So, in your opinion, as long as all the standards are met, you see nothing wrong with the age factor? I'm probably going to have to go with what Daniel said in his reply, but let me ask you this. If we go with your theory, then it's very possible for someone to reach a high level black belt, at a young age. If you walked into a school and saw someone who was 20yrs old, but was a 7th or 8th dan, would that be ok with you?

Let's see their skill set and decide if it's valid or not. The proof is on the mat.






Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving? Voting? Drinking? Working? I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car. So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?

If they have attained the skills to acquire it, yes. Once again, the proof is on the mat.




My point was simply that in that art, you don't see people, of any age, worrying about rank. Everyone trains, and they earn the rank on the standards the art has. What is the rush? Does it really matter if someone who starts training at 5, gets a BB by the time they're 10 or are they capable of waiting until they're 16?

Worried, no. No real rush through it, however I don't believe that age should be the ultimate predetermining factor as to whether or not a student has acquired the sufficient skills and knowledge to advance in rank.





Ok.

Just sayin'.

 

[generalneon]

If Generalneon means that his daughter being a good senior to her juniors, then I don't see the problem. Kids who are at the head of their class helping kids who are not is not uncommon in school. The idea of students being a 'teacher's assistant' is also not unheard of in grade school.

If Generalneon means that his daughter is acting in the role of an instructor who is under the supervision of a senior instructor, then the school is engaging in a practice that I do not endorse.

There's a couple things going on with that. The teacher breaks down class by rank and assign various seniors to work on a particular form, one-step, etc. They are seeing if the juniors are showing respect to their senior as they learn, and the seniors are being observed as to whether or not they show maturity and poise in a leadership role. Plus, the seniors are being given a taste of teaching and seeing if they may want to pursue teaching in the future.

 

[ballen0351]

I disagree. If a street fight, perhaps not, that's just physics. It's not speed that kills, it's momentum that kills, and a larger individual would have far more momentum behind their strikes than a small kid. But the other aspects, retention of knowledge, displaying forms and fighting combinations, those can be equal to an older student, it just depends on the particular students.

If that were true we would have a bunch of 10 year old college students running around. Maybe your kids a prodigy but we have a bunch of TKd schools in my town and I see kids in black belts all the time I cant imagine they are all prodigies. There is just to big of a difference developmentally both physical and mental between a10 yr old and a 20 yr old. Which is why we have all the laws protecting kids because they are not adults. I teach kids a totally different curriculum then adults. Why? because a kid cant generate enough force needed to complete certain techniques effectively so why show them until they are older and more capable. Instead I teach them more relevant and age appropriate things related to self defense. Self defense for a 5 year old had different needs then self defense then a 20 yr old.

Core competitions are done with age groups,

Why? if shes is just as good why do they have age groups?

but competition for grand champion is open to all black belts. The analogy of a kid being employed and wrenching on a car is really getting off subject. There are national laws forbidding that. I'm sure that my kid could swing a mattock underground at the coal mine that her grandfather works at, but it would be illegal.

Why do we have laws protecting kids? According to you if a kid can do the move or swing the hammer its all that matters.

If your kid drives around on the streets, and gets pulled over, then they are breaking the law.

why according to you age doesn't matter right?

Who exactly are the martial arts police? You?

nope someone asked for an opinion and I gave it. It really don't matter to me what they teach at your school or what color belt you daughter wears

Different schools of martial arts have different rules that all members must follow, and if an age requirement for advancement is one of the rules, so be it, everyone has to follow their rules. However, if the concepts are grasped and displayed to satisfaction to a panel of judges, both physically and mentally, and their is no existingrule against age requirements, then their age should not be the deciding factor as to whether or not they earned advancement.

except both mentally and physically age does matter so it cant be the same.

That was me making a point about the martial artist elitist attitude of, "This kid is too young to share the floor with me, maybe they'd be better served taking ballet lessons, and leaving the martial arts to the real martial artists. Now get off the floor, you're taking up valuable kicking room."

No martial art elitist here and kids don't take up any room in my training since we dont train kids and adults at the same time because it becomes to simple for the adults or to hard for the kids. So it has nothing to do with sharing the floor and more to do with the nonsense of a kid thinking they are adults. I went to an elementary school to assist my Sensei with a career day. At the time I was a brown belt. As we walked in to a 4th grade class I heard a little girl tell her friend she was a black belt at her school and she could kick my butt.

Her training has taught her to not go looking for a fight, but if a fight finds her, to put their opponent down and make sure that they stay down, called I believe ilsa pilgar. Just one of the many concepts that she 'gets'.

until due to her size and limitations of age she cant then what?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There's a couple things going on with that. The teacher breaks down class by rank and assign various seniors to work on a particular form, one-step, etc. They are seeing if the juniors are showing respect to their senior as they learn, and the seniors are being observed as to whether or not they show maturity and poise in a leadership role. Plus, the seniors are being given a taste of teaching and seeing if they may want to pursue teaching in the future.

Okay, so it is observation of leadership and senior students being good seniors to their juniors.

I presume that the part about seeing if they may want to pursue teaching in the future means distant future for a young teen or tween.

While I do not feel that age is an issue for a black piece of cloth, I do feel that teaching not only requires a level of maturity that is unusual in teens, tweens, and children, but also that the instructor be at leastof the age of majority. Preferably, mid twenties or greater.

There are a number of reasons for this, some of which revolve around the instructor and some of which revolve around the perception of the instructor. Typically, a teen has difficulty controlling a class. Partly because of lessons a teen has typically not learned at that stage of life and partly because the students and/or parents of students perceive him or her as a kid.

 

[K-man]

Not all martial arts are geared towards outside SD. For example, would you say that about an eighty year old who just got her black sash at the tai chi class she took at the senior center?

How about a Haidong gumdo black belt or an iaido or kendo shodan?

Sure, the principles that are taught in those arts are applicable in SD, but kendo, iaido, and tai chi classes taught in senior centers do not contain self defense specific training. Same goes for Haidong Gumdo.

And while one of my kendo students (a child, ironically) did successfully apply kendo principles to dealing with a schoolyard bully, the purpose of kendo is not self defence. It is not even related to fighting.

Such an expectation on your part, at least worded as broadly as "all" is unrealistic.

Of course you are right. I should have qualified my reply. However, my intent was possibly more realistic in that black belt exponents of any martial art who claim their art can be used for self defence should be able to demonstrate their expertise in a nasty situation if required to do so. I would include TKD in that category. In our karate it would take about eight years to get to Nidan and the same for aikido.
:asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Of course you are right. I should have qualified my reply. However, my intent was possibly more realistic in that black belt exponents of any martial art who claim their art can be used for self defence should be able to demonstrate their expertise in a nasty situation if required to do so. I would include TKD in that category. In our karate it would take about eight years to get to Nidan and the same for aikido.
:asian:

I don't know that I fully agree, but I think that that is a very reasonable viewpoint.

Where I differ is that not all arts have the same training time to first degree. As I mentioned earlier, in Korea, it takes one year. And that is apparently not a recent phenomenon. You cannot reasonably compare a one to two year student with a four to six year student.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, in at least KKW TKD, a first degree is not considered a high grade. It is considered a beginning degree.

Now, having said that, a one to two year student is not (or at least should not be) a rank beginner and should have enough trained in to be able to, as you say, demonstrate their expertise (or at least proficiency) in a nasty situation when required to do so. I was not a long time student in TKD as a kid and was no black belt, and was able to do so.

As far as kids with degrees of that nature go, I would expect them to be able to do what they reasonably can when things get nasty. The sort of circumstances that young kids are most likely to face are either schoolyard bullies or adult predators.

While a child is at a severe disadvantage when dealing with an adult predator, there are strategies that a child, even a five year old, can learn and 'get' well enough to apply.

Of course, a child would have to be getting instruction in those kinds of things and drilling in them regularly, and based on what I see of most kids MA classes, they're more fitness and sport oriented.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know that I fully agree, but I think that that is a very reasonable viewpoint.

Where I differ is that not all arts have the same training time to first degree. As I mentioned earlier, in Korea, it takes one year. And that is apparently not a recent phenomenon. You cannot reasonably compare a one to two year student with a four to six year student.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, in at least KKW TKD, a first degree is not considered a high grade. It is considered a beginning degree.

Now, having said that, a one to two year student is not (or at least should not be) a rank beginner and should have enough trained in to be able to, as you say, demonstrate their expertise (or at least proficiency) in a nasty situation when required to do so. I was not a long time student in TKD as a kid and was no black belt, and was able to do so.

As far as kids with degrees of that nature go, I would expect them to be able to do what they reasonably can when things get nasty. The sort of circumstances that young kids are most likely to face are either schoolyard bullies or adult predators.

While a child is at a severe disadvantage when dealing with an adult predator, there are strategies that a child, even a five year old, can learn and 'get' well enough to apply.

Of course, a child would have to be getting instruction in those kinds of things and drilling in them regularly, and based on what I see of most kids MA classes, they're more fitness and sport oriented.

But if you were being equal. None of us would fare well against an attacker twice our body weight. You still train the child but it will be low percentage by nature.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But if you were being equal. None of us would fare well against an attacker twice our body weight.

An attacker twice my 220 pound body weight would hard pressed to catch me without having a heart attack and would likely have some serious mobility issues.

You still train the child but it will be low percentage by nature.

Low percentage of what?

In any case, most of what you train a child for is to build the foundation by getting the muscle memory in them when they're really in the zone for learning pretty much anything and have gobs of flexibility.

Self defence for children against adult predators should focus on strategies to A) avoid them, and B) to escape from them, particularly before they get the kid into a vehicle.

No strategy is guaranteed, even for an adult. And yes, a well trained child is at a severe disadvantage against an adult predator.

But then, that has nothing to do with belts.

 

[drop bear]

An attacker twice my 220 pound body weight would hard pressed to catch me without having a heart attack and would likely have some serious mobility issues.


Low percentage of what?

In any case, most of what you train a child for is to build the foundation by getting the muscle memory in them when they're really in the zone for learning pretty much anything and have gobs of flexibility.

Self defence for children against adult predators should focus on strategies to A) avoid them, and B) to escape from them, particularly before they get the kid into a vehicle.

No strategy is guaranteed, even for an adult. And yes, a well trained child is at a severe disadvantage against an adult predator.

But then, that has nothing to do with belts.

Low percentage meaning a severe disadvantage. Just a me terminology thing. Nothing is guaranteed to work nothing is guaranteed to fail. So low high percentage.

I think there would be two threats to children stranger danger and bullying. For stranger danger avoidance and awareness is key. For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order.