Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...

[ballen0351]

And so now you are drawing a line in the sand about what does as does not make a black belt. And again that is fine and your choice. Just like it is fine and their choice to have their own standards.

An adult rank in our system is a guy who fights. That is about the criteria. You have the fight team and you have everybody else. Otherwise there is no rankings except for things like the sherdog ones.

Lol I'm not drawing any lines anywhere. I'm giving an opinion on an internet forum. No more no less.

So can a 5 yr old be on your "fight team". If not why since you say age shouldn't matter

Or since you don't really have ranks in your school do kids
Train in the same class with aadults? Since giving a 10 year old an adult black belt means that 10 yr old is of the same skill level as adults of the same rank

 

[Carol]

Unfortunately the brain is not a muscle and cannot be built up to better withstand impact. Safety gear helps some but the damage sustained is from the brain hitting the skull, and no safety gear can prevent that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[drop bear]

Lol I'm not drawing any lines anywhere. I'm giving an opinion on an internet forum. No more no less.

So can a 5 yr old be on your "fight team". If not why since you say age shouldn't matter

Or since you don't really have ranks in your school do kids
Train in the same class with aadults? Since giving a 10 year old an adult black belt means that 10 yr old is of the same skill level as adults of the same rank

We have weight classes and we make our own judgements on age. So no a five year old cannot be on our fight team. Kids train with less or no contact. We don't match up hundred kilo guys with 50 kilo guys for serious sparring.

So yes we do make adjustments for kids. But that does not mean we are automatically right and all of you guys are wrong.

And this is my point.

 

[ballen0351]

We have weight classes and we make our own judgements on age. So no a five year old cannot be on our fight team. Kids train with less or no contact. We don't match up hundred kilo guys with 50 kilo guys for serious sparring.

So yes we do make adjustments for kids. But that does not mean we are automatically right and all of you guys are wrong.

And this is my point.

And my point is if you need to make adjustments for kids then its not the same level as adults so it isn't the same rank.

 

[drop bear]

And my point is if you need to make adjustments for kids then its not the same level as adults so it isn't the same rank.

It isn't the same rank anyway. My rank is not your rank even if the belts look similar.

Raking has this issue. That you are applying one standard to people of different ages different sizes and different learning abilities. And it cannot be done. And personally I believe it shouldn't be done.

Our style takes more commitment than most. As you have said there is a physical element and a danger element. A lot of styles don't have that and it is plausible that a child can perform to that standard.

It was even mentioned about some kid with his snappy techniques that in theory pass an adult standard. You mentioned that the child would not have the understanding. But that is subjective. In a objective test of understanding the kid would only need the right answers.
Without adjustment the kid can become a black belt by every standard required.

So this adjustment becomes part of a grading.

In all honesty many black belt tests could be passed with a few months of dedicated training if all you were doing was training to pass a test.

But rankings are not designed like that.

 

[K-man]

But k man is judging his black belt off other styles.

Not so. Kano introduced the ranking system originally. He used them to recognise progress through his organisation. Other Japanese styles followed suit. If you look at the USJF I reckon they have it right. You progress through the ranks as a junior but you grade to black belt as an adult.

The USJF Juniors ranking system specifies ranks to 11th kyū (jūichiky&#363. The USJA Juniors ranking system specifies twelve levels of kyū rank, beginning with "Junior 1st Degree" (equivalent to jūnikyū, or 12th ky&#363 and ending with "Junior 12th Degree" (equivalent to ikky&#363. As with the senior practitioners, the USJA recommends that juniors wear a patch specifying their rank. When a USJA Junior reaches the age of 17, their conversion to Senior rank is:
Yellow belt converts to 6th kyu (rokyu)
Orange belt converts to 5th kyu (gokyu)
Green belt converts to 4th kyu (yonkyu)
Blue belt or higher converts to 3rd kyu (sankyu)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank_in_Judo

Why is there an expectation at all that other people are supposed to be impressed by your black belt?

What happens when you encounter someone who has done their bb harder?

I am not sure at all about this idea that people are walking around with this concept that their bb is more awesome than anybody else's.

Most people who haven't trained martial arts look at a black belt as something special. They have no concept of dan ranks but anyone with a black belt must be some tough SOB, and if you go back thirty or forty years they were. Back then a black belt wasn't given out without a lot of blood, sweat and tears, especially the blood. I trained in one school for a very short time where you weren't allowed to touch your partner when sparring. Go figure! Now you have little kids walking round with black belts. If someone here is a black belt in BJJ I'm impressed because I know what it took to get there. Same for most other MAs. But in some MAs, and I'm not naming them here, the rankings are just a joke. Nothing to do with 'my belt is more awesome than yours'. Personally I couldn't give a stuff about the rank, but if you tie a black belt around your waist in the places I train then you had better be at that level. Some places I have trained guys are scared to hit hard in case they hit you. It is hard to train effectively when the strikes lack intent. To me that reflects badly on the school and the instructors. But you can't train that way with kids. Years ago the most promising 15 year old I had left after a grading where he was hit a bit too hard by an over zealous partner.

When you talk about harder gradings it gets interesting. Years ago the gradings were really hard with lots of physical work and full on sparring, very little knowledge required. Now, we don't actually spar as such. For black belt now you will still put on head gear etc and have to work hard, but that's just a small part of it. The more advanced gradings are demonstrating knowledge and understanding.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Not so. Kano introduced the ranking system originally. He used them to recognise progress through his organisation. Other Japanese styles followed suit. If you look at the USJF I reckon they have it right. You progress through the ranks as a junior but you grade to black belt as an adult.




Most people who haven't trained martial arts look at a black belt as something special. They have no concept of dan ranks but anyone with a black belt must be some tough SOB, and if you go back thirty or forty years they were. Back then a black belt wasn't given out without a lot of blood, sweat and tears, especially the blood. I trained in one school for a very short time where you weren't allowed to touch your partner when sparring. Go figure! Now you have little kids walking round with black belts. If someone here is a black belt in BJJ I'm impressed because I know what it took to get there. Same for most other MAs. But in some MAs, and I'm not naming them here, the rankings are just a joke. Nothing to do with 'my belt is more awesome than yours'. Personally I couldn't give a stuff about the rank, but if you tie a black belt around your waist in the places I train then you had better be at that level. Some places I have trained guys are scared to hit hard in case they hit you. It is hard to train effectively when the strikes lack intent. To me that reflects badly on the school and the instructors. But you can't train that way with kids. Years ago the most promising 15 year old I had left after a grading where he was hit a bit too hard by an over zealous partner.

When you talk about harder gradings it gets interesting. Years ago the gradings were really hard with lots of physical work and full on sparring, very little knowledge required. Now, we don't actually spar as such. For black belt now you will still put on head gear etc and have to work hard, but that's just a small part of it. The more advanced gradings are demonstrating knowledge and understanding.
:asian:

The thing is that it sets the bar on any arbitrary level we want.


A style that grades easier is one that does not realise the potential of its students

A style that is too hard is subjecting its students to too much risk.

This makes every grading system right.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I hear this a lot, and I have to disagree. In some TKD organizations this might be true.

Might be? In the largest TKD organization, and in a good number of the smaller ones, it is definitely true.

4th dan is considered an instructor grade and 5th dan an up are considered high dans in KKW TKD. In Korea, ildan (first dan) takes a year. Second dan another year, third dan another two years, and fourth dan another three years. These are minimums. So a newly minted fourth dan in KKW TKD in Korea represents roughly seven years of training. In the states, where the average in KKW schools is roughly two years based on what I've seen and read, it represents roughly eight years (again, minimums). A fifth dan represents over a decade of training.

From what I've gathered and read, in arts where a shodan takes more than three years (say four to six), a freshly minted black belt is not considered a high rank. The sentiment that a black belt is just the beginning is also frequently expressed regarding many of these arts.

While a new black belt, even in a two year program, is not a rank beginner, they are frequently considered to be still in the beginning stage of the art. Again, that is based on what I've seen/read/heard, not on hard data.

Or more especially in a school where they routinely give little kids an adult BB rank. In other systems, the BB or it's equivalent implies real achievement and proficiency( BJJ?). Sure there's still a long way to go to true mastery but by BB you're more of a journeyman and definitely not a beginner.

I was not referring to real performance and proficiency. I was strictly referring to rank. A shodan/chodan/ildan is not generally considered a high rank. Shodan literally means "beginning degree," and while a shodan is (or should) not be a rank beginner, it is generally not considered a high rank.

Mention of BJJ is out of place, as BJJ made the black belt a much more advanced grade than it is in most martial arts. From what I understand, it is something along the lines of ten years to achieve.

I also don't know that I would call a shodan the equal of a journeyman. The two don't really represent the same thing.

In the art I study, You put in a good many years to achieve the BB equivalent and only a very, very few ever achieve 5th level or higher. After a certain point it's an issue of ability as much as knowledge and years. Honestly, I probably never will make "master", even with decades working at it.

I don't know what art you practice and I don't know what the average time to shodan/equivalent is, nor where it fits into the scheme of your art's ranks, so I don't have a perspective on it. But based on yoru last sentence, shodan does not appear to be a "high" grade in your art either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But k man is judging his black belt off other styles.

The differences between schools, even within the same art and the same organization, is different enough that I would not go beyond the same school in terms of comparison. That is not practical, but I would not go beyond the same art and the same organization in terms of standards for rank.

 

[MJS]

So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.

I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.

Now this makes me want to tell a story and have a conversation about this. When I use to do TKD, one of the students was like 14 or so and had his black belt. His parents moved so him and his brother had to go to a different school. They found one, but in order to maintain there rank there new teacher needed to test them. His younger brother was...hmmm I don't know purple or brown belt. Regardless the instructor tested him and let him keep his belt. This other student being a black belt and young didn't seem to fit for the teacher. Because the teacher test him and then sparred him. The kid was able to beat the instructor which seemed to fustrate him since he made him spar him 3 more times or so before he reluctantly agreed to let him keep his rank.

Now I tell my story since this teacher shared in the idea that you have to be a certain age for your black belt...

now the topics I would like to hear opinions on..

How young is too young?
Why does age matter? Should it not be based on skill?

on the flip side...
How well can a young kid learn martial arts. I mean lets consider self defense, a child learning self defense will react differently to an adult attacker then a child who is a full grown teen.

I'll say the same thing I've always said about this matter...IMHO, I don't believe in giving a BB to anyone under the age of 16. Some schools have a Jr. BB, which isn't considered a full BB until the person reaches a certain age. I'm fine with that. But a 5yr old BB...that's a joke, the school is a mcdojo, more interested in making money and keeping people happy, than preserving the real meaning behind the art and the belt, and I'd run, not walk, away from any school that did that. It's a joke, plain and simple.

Sure, some will say, "But what if the kid starts at 3? by the time he's 12 he should be ready." I still call BS on that! I highly doubt anyone that young, has a solid understanding of what it means to be a BB.

Forgot to answer the other questions. How young is too young? Under the age of 16. Age matters IMO, because the older you are, the better you can understand something. A 5yr old knows what it means to be a BB? I highly doubt it. Sure, I've seen some quality young kids out there. There are a few kids at my dojo that are younger than 16 that have a 'kids' BB. I train at a Kyokushin dojo. My teacher doesnt hand out BB's to anyone that doesnt deserve them. His standards are high for every rank, especially the BB. I've seen his BB tests, and they're no joke. The quality and skill level of those kids is above and beyond ANY youth BB that I've seen in any other schools I've trained or been a part of. And yes, skill is just one part of it.

 

[MJS]

Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.

It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?

I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.

I agree. Even with protective gear, injury can and does, happen. I think that this is why many, not all, dojos out there, tend to water down their teachings, mainly due to fear of injury to someone and the lawsuit that'll no doubt follow. What some tend to forget is that the arts involve contact. You can't spar or do SD without it...it doesnt work that way..lol.

 

[MJS]

I have no doubt kids can copy the moves but that's not understanding the material. More to it then looking good

QFT!!! THAT is the main key factor, IMO! I doubt a 6yr old, a 10yr old is going to have the full understanding of things.

 

[wingchun100]

So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.

I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.

Now this makes me want to tell a story and have a conversation about this. When I use to do TKD, one of the students was like 14 or so and had his black belt. His parents moved so him and his brother had to go to a different school. They found one, but in order to maintain there rank there new teacher needed to test them. His younger brother was...hmmm I don't know purple or brown belt. Regardless the instructor tested him and let him keep his belt. This other student being a black belt and young didn't seem to fit for the teacher. Because the teacher test him and then sparred him. The kid was able to beat the instructor which seemed to fustrate him since he made him spar him 3 more times or so before he reluctantly agreed to let him keep his rank.

Now I tell my story since this teacher shared in the idea that you have to be a certain age for your black belt...

now the topics I would like to hear opinions on..

How young is too young?
Why does age matter? Should it not be based on skill?

on the flip side...
How well can a young kid learn martial arts. I mean lets consider self defense, a child learning self defense will react differently to an adult attacker then a child who is a full grown teen.

It stinks how some schools (out of greed) have undermined the significance of belts. For example, in the judo school I went to, there were a lot of students 13-16 years old. I saw them wearing all kinds of belts, and I found out the ranking system was: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black and then degrees of black.

There was an older guy in class...maybe about 30. He was a yellow belt. Then he took a belt test and the next time he came to class...he had a BROWN BELT!!! I asked, "Hey, shouldn't he have orange?" They told me, "No. For anyone over 18 the belts go white, yellow, brown, black and then various degrees of black."

To me, that just makes the belt system a moot point. I mean, why do you get to skip all those colors just because you are over 18? What was the reason behind that? I didn't have the nerve to ask the Sensei about it (I thought he would take it as me challenging his choices instead of just being curious), and now I can't because the school is long gone.

 

[MJS]

It stinks how some schools (out of greed) have undermined the significance of belts. For example, in the judo school I went to, there were a lot of students 13-16 years old. I saw them wearing all kinds of belts, and I found out the ranking system was: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black and then degrees of black.

There was an older guy in class...maybe about 30. He was a yellow belt. Then he took a belt test and the next time he came to class...he had a BROWN BELT!!! I asked, "Hey, shouldn't he have orange?" They told me, "No. For anyone over 18 the belts go white, yellow, brown, black and then various degrees of black."

To me, that just makes the belt system a moot point. I mean, why do you get to skip all those colors just because you are over 18? What was the reason behind that? I didn't have the nerve to ask the Sensei about it (I thought he would take it as me challenging his choices instead of just being curious), and now I can't because the school is long gone.

Yes, you're right...it does stink how some places are. Regarding what you said...my guess would be that the school has a seperate belt system for kids, and another for adults. I'd say the reason for this is probably to prolong the training, so as to not award them higher rank while being so young. IF that is in fact the reason, I can accept that. Look at it this way...nowadays, people are all about the belts. It makes people feel good. Oh boy, I got a new belt...I must be good! Um...no, not necessarily. LOL!

When I started Kyokushin, and took my first belt exam, we don't find out until a few days later, whether or not we passed. The belt that I thought I was testing for was orange. However, when I came to class, my teacher handed me a blue belt. I didn't question it or ask why. I can only assume that because of my past training, he felt I was worthy of skipping a belt. However, since then, I have not skipped any ranks. For me, it's all about the training, and learning the art. When I'm ready to test, he'll tell me.

 

[ballen0351]

It isn't the same rank anyway. My rank is not your rank even if the belts look similar.

Raking has this issue. That you are applying one standard to people of different ages different sizes and different learning abilities. And it cannot be done. And personally I believe it shouldn't be done.

Im not comparing two different schools or styles. Within an individual school each rank should have people around the same skill level so white belts should be similar, blue belts should all be similar, browns, blacks ect. Its impossible for a 5 yr old to have the same skill level as a 28 yr old normal adult. Mentally, physically, and emotionally they are just too far apart in development.

Our style takes more commitment than most.

:BSmeter:

As you have said there is a physical element and a danger element. A lot of styles don't have that and it is plausible that a child can perform to that standard.

It was even mentioned about some kid with his snappy techniques that in theory pass an adult standard. You mentioned that the child would not have the understanding. But that is subjective. In a objective test of understanding the kid would only need the right answers.

More too it then looking good and memorizing the test.

Without adjustment the kid can become a black belt by every standard required.

So this adjustment becomes part of a grading.

if your styles testing and material is the same for a 5 yr old and a 35 yr old ow much is the 35 yr old really learning? Not much if you ask me.

In all honesty many black belt tests could be passed with a few months of dedicated training if all you were doing was training to pass a test.

none that Ive ever seen but Ive never trained in all styles or seen all black belt tests. The ones Ive seen couldn't be learned and passed in a few months.

 

[MJS]

It isn't the same rank anyway. My rank is not your rank even if the belts look similar.

True.

Raking has this issue. That you are applying one standard to people of different ages different sizes and different learning abilities. And it cannot be done. And personally I believe it shouldn't be done.

We're not all clones of each other, so adjustments will need to be made. A 5'3 female, trying to reach the face of a 6'2 male, is probably going to be difficult, so yes, adjustments will need to be made. Will the fitness level of a 23yo male be different than that of a 60yo male? Probably. Even with age, size, sex, etc, differences, standards can still be held accordingly.

It was even mentioned about some kid with his snappy techniques that in theory pass an adult standard. You mentioned that the child would not have the understanding. But that is subjective. In a objective test of understanding the kid would only need the right answers.
Without adjustment the kid can become a black belt by every standard required.

I'll refer to what ballen said regarding this.

So this adjustment becomes part of a grading. However, I will add that me personally, I'm not a fan of young kids, ie: 4, 5, 6yr olds, training anyways.

In all honesty many black belt tests could be passed with a few months of dedicated training if all you were doing was training to pass a test.

But rankings are not designed like that.

I disagree.

 

[K-man]

It stinks how some schools (out of greed) have undermined the significance of belts. For example, in the judo school I went to, there were a lot of students 13-16 years old. I saw them wearing all kinds of belts, and I found out the ranking system was: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black and then degrees of black.

There was an older guy in class...maybe about 30. He was a yellow belt. Then he took a belt test and the next time he came to class...he had a BROWN BELT!!! I asked, "Hey, shouldn't he have orange?" They told me, "No. For anyone over 18 the belts go white, yellow, brown, black and then various degrees of black."

To me, that just makes the belt system a moot point. I mean, why do you get to skip all those colors just because you are over 18? What was the reason behind that? I didn't have the nerve to ask the Sensei about it (I thought he would take it as me challenging his choices instead of just being curious), and now I can't because the school is long gone.

I would wonder why it is 'greed' that gives the belt system a lack of significance. I don't charge for junior grading but it is important IMHO, if belts have any relevance, that children's belt progress be held back so they arrive at black belt at an age where they are ready for a black belt and are equal physically and mentally with other Shodan ho. If that means adding more coloured belts, fine by me. I have one friend who adds stripes to his coloured belts as the kids move up. Nothing to do with money, just rewarding progress without making a mockery of the belt system.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

The differences between schools, even within the same art and the same organization, is different enough that I would not go beyond the same school in terms of comparison. That is not practical, but I would not go beyond the same art and the same organization in terms of standards for rank.

I agree with you. I didn't actually say what drop bear quoted me as saying. What I actually said that a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style. However, that said, I would expect a blackbelt of any style to be able to demonstrate their skill in an outside SD situation and I can't see an eight year old black belt doing that.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

I agree. Even with protective gear, injury can and does, happen. I think that this is why many, not all, dojos out there, tend to water down their teachings, mainly due to fear of injury to someone and the lawsuit that'll no doubt follow. What some tend to forget is that the arts involve contact. You can't spar or do SD without it...it doesnt work that way..lol.

And look not everybody would be expected to jump in the cage at 14 or ever.

Some martial arts are going to be geared towards little or no contact.

Personal choice.

I could very easily get on my high horse and say if a black belt has never fought then he is not a real black belt.

Bjj tends towards this idea.

But again because of personal choice I don't feel people have to.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with you. I didn't actually say what drop bear quoted me as saying. What I actually said that a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style. However, that said, I would expect a blackbelt of any style to be able to demonstrate their skill in an outside SD situation and I can't see an eight year old black belt doing that.
:asian:

What you said was.

At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation. If your organisation gives out black belts to 8 year olds fine, but don't expect others to look at that with more than a mild amusement.