Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...

[Takai]

And you told the 9 year old that most first fights are pretty scrappy?

Actually I explained the difference between the system they are training in (Wing Chun) versus the style they were watching.

 

[drop bear]

at 5 my 1st son started but that's with full pads and helmets and against other 5 year olds and I still think twice about it and may not let my other son start and there is talk here of banning tackle football for kids due to more data on traumatic Brain injuries

didn't say she wasn't an ok fighter I said her parents are stupid

Keep telling her that when she has dementia at 40 and blows her head off like Junior Seau "Oh its ok she was a tough kid"

I think you are overestimating the risk. Of contact sports mma suffers some of the least head trauma. And has very good safety measures. And it is an area where kids are still allowed to fall over.
Look I accept it is a hard sport and not many people are going to be able to take it to the level where they fight. There is a lot of dedication and sacrifice involved.

And that is where the experience is gained. A pro fighter is the equivalent of the black belt. As far as the standing in most clubs go. They take a mentoring role and get some added authority. They have the fight skills and the experience.

So can a minus 18 handle responsibility? Yes.

Can they know the techniques? Yes.

Can they handle themselves as much as a 14 year old girl can be expected to? Yes.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.

I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.

Now this makes me want to tell a story and have a conversation about this. When I use to do TKD, one of the students was like 14 or so and had his black belt. His parents moved so him and his brother had to go to a different school. They found one, but in order to maintain there rank there new teacher needed to test them. His younger brother was...hmmm I don't know purple or brown belt. Regardless the instructor tested him and let him keep his belt. This other student being a black belt and young didn't seem to fit for the teacher. Because the teacher test him and then sparred him. The kid was able to beat the instructor which seemed to fustrate him since he made him spar him 3 more times or so before he reluctantly agreed to let him keep his rank.

Now I tell my story since this teacher shared in the idea that you have to be a certain age for your black belt...

now the topics I would like to hear opinions on..

How young is too young?
Why does age matter? Should it not be based on skill?

on the flip side...
How well can a young kid learn martial arts. I mean lets consider self defense, a child learning self defense will react differently to an adult attacker then a child who is a full grown teen.

I really don't think age should be an issue for rank but rather, it should be if the student is ready for the rank, physically and mentally. At my dojo to get a black belt you have to be able to take a hit like a full grown man. You hold a pad and somebody hits it full force and you have to be able to take the impact. That is one of the requirements for black belt. Now, if a five year old can fulfill that requirement for getting a black belt along with all the other requirements than I don't see any reason why he shouldn't get it, although I've never heard of a five year old that could do that.

 

[TKDTony2179]

As a parent who actively trains with their kids...that was really hard to watch. My kids are much younger than that but, I wouldn't allow them anywhere near a ring. I just don't get what is going on with some parents. The risk of serious injury in that type of match is just not worth it.

Of course, listening to my 9 year old daughter ask "Why are they just flailing?" was priceless.

Yea flailing because of lack of skill and adrenaline dump. Pad work and real fighting looks totally different.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I think it really depends on what a black belt means in the context of the style and organization.

Does black belt mean you've mastered a deep and detailed set of skills and are ready to strike out on your own as a teacher? Does it mean you can legitimately defend yourself in real life or are a hardcore tough fighter? Then yeah, you need to an adult, or at least an older teen.

But in some styles/orgs, a black belt means that you can do this list of forms, that list of strikes, are a decent sparrer for your age & weight class, are physically fit and have a good attitude. If those are the requirements, I think some middle-to-older kids can reasonably be black belts. Yeah, they won't usually have the same power as an adult and may take longer to learn things. But if they work hard, kids can learn to do forms and strikes cleanly, and can spar well for their weight class.

But I do think that 5 years old is too young by any reasonable standard. Kids 3-4 years are still developing basic motor skills, spatial awareness, and being able to pay attention for more than 2 minutes. At that age, most of what you're teaching them is stuff like which foot is the left one and how to stand in line; there's just no way a 3-year old could learn Taegeuk 3 in two months well enough to even do it on their own. I have no idea how they're passing those kids along.

Only reason I can see a 5 yr old that have a black belt is because they passed their lil dragon or ninja program. But I can see why that would confuse adults or even older black belt.

 

[drop bear]

Yea flailing because of lack of skill and adrenaline dump. Pad work and real fighting looks totally different.

It is easy to look perfect when you are not under pressure. But the plan changes when you step in to the ring for the first time. A scrappy first fight is no indication of lack of skill. More just what happens in a full contact fight.

It is not uncommon and that was a better first fight that a lot of people have. You have to bear in mind very few people are able to perfect pad work and real fight there way through one of those.

A first mma fight is supposed to look like that. It is just one of the differences between real life and what people think should happen.

It can be a trap because people go to water when the reality of hard punches to the head changes the script from clever pad work to trying to achieve some simple basics under enormous pressure.

Same girl doing drills. Nothing wrong with her technique.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDOaG52D_h4

 

[ballen0351]

I think you are overestimating the risk.

And I think your not paying attention to all the data coming out about brain injuries. And we have no idea the damage being caused to a 14 yr old whos brain is still growing and*developing.

Of contact sports mma suffers some of the least head trauma. And has very good safety measures. And it is an area where kids are still allowed to fall over.

Yeah I got the implied "we are just tougher then you" BS the first time. Like I said don't matter how tough you are physics are physics and being tough won't stop a kids brain from banging around in the skull. You wanna do it as an adult great known the risk under stand the risk and go for it. Hopefully I'm wrong but since we are only now taking this stuff seriously and really studying Traumatic brain injury on adult athletes and seeing even repeated small hits over the course of a few years can cause major damage later in life this girl won't know the damage for another 20 or 30 years. Hey but you guys are just tougher down there so physics don't apply to her I guess.

Look I accept it is a hard sport and not many people are going to be able to take it to the level where they fight. There is a lot of dedication and sacrifice involved.

Again all that is irrelevent were talking science and facts and facts are showing repeated blows to the head are bad for adults and we have limited data on kids brains but what i have been reading the data we do have shows amd even great effect at a younger age.

And that is where the experience is gained. A pro fighter is the equivalent of the black belt.

Sure she can run around with a black belt that's meaningless to me when she will be drooling and forgetting her name at 40.

 

[drop bear]

And I think your not paying attention to all the data coming out about brain injuries. And we have no idea the damage being caused to a 14 yr old whos brain is still growing and*developing.

Yeah I got the implied "we are just tougher then you" BS the first time. Like I said don't matter how tough you are physics are physics and being tough won't stop a kids brain from banging around in the skull. You wanna do it as an adult great known the risk under stand the risk and go for it. Hopefully I'm wrong but since we are only now taking this stuff seriously and really studying Traumatic brain injury on adult athletes and seeing even repeated small hits over the course of a few years can cause major damage later in life this girl won't know the damage for another 20 or 30 years. Hey but you guys are just tougher down there so physics don't apply to her I guess.

Again all that is irrelevent were talking science and facts and facts are showing repeated blows to the head are bad for adults and we have limited data on kids brains but what i have been reading the data we do have shows amd even great effect at a younger age.

Sure she can run around with a black belt that's meaningless to me when she will be drooling and forgetting her name at 40.

Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.

It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?

I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.

It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?

I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.

Here and here and here and here. How many more would you like?

The long term effects of even a single concussion in a child can be devastating. Pretending that it's no big deal won't change that. And while you may not have noticed the early onset of significant cognitive degeneration in people who have had multiple concussions, I can assure you that those of us in emergency medicine see it far too oftne.

 

[drop bear]

Here and here and here and here. How many more would you like?

The long term effects of even a single concussion in a child can be devastating. Pretending that it's no big deal won't change that. And while you may not have noticed the early onset of significant cognitive degeneration in people who have had multiple concussions, I can assure you that those of us in emergency medicine see it far too oftne.

And so you are proposing removing any sport where a child could sustain a concussion? I don't think you would have many sports left.

Including the tkd I am afraid.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLcAXcemUDc

By the way did they give that kid a standing count? If you want to discuss danger and head trauma. That is an issue right there.

 

[drop bear]

I looked into that little white girl's Kaela training. damn. It's like an instant eye sore.

Ugly! clumsy! and so grounded. you call that martial art? we capoeiristas fly everywhere.

See I like capoeira.

I would be more of an Angola man these days.

I used to train with some of these guys.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BsPGy6LC59k

 

[ballen0351]

Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.

It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?

I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.

I didn't bash MMA I bashed this kids parents. Grown adults can do what they want. They are old enough to look at the dangers and weigh the risks and make a choice.

There is growing data about kids and head injuries and the outlook isn't good. Adults brains are done forming and growing so it is what it is. Kids not so much.

It takes 10 seconds on Google to find the data if you choose to read it.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't bash MMA I bashed this kids parents. Grown adults can do what they want. They are old enough to look at the dangers and weigh the risks and make a choice.

There is growing data about kids and head injuries and the outlook isn't good. Adults brains are done forming and growing so it is what it is. Kids not so much.

It takes 10 seconds on Google to find the data if you choose to read it.

And my point is mma is one of the lesser risky sports.
http://www.scifighting.com/2013/11/20/16325/12-sports-dangerous-mma/

 

[ballen0351]

And my point is mma is one of the lesser risky sports.
http://www.scifighting.com/2013/11/20/16325/12-sports-dangerous-mma/

Ok how man kids are running from bulls, BASE jumping, Cave diving or driving race cars? And getting ate by a Shark really? That's your rebuttal to scientific evidence showing traumatic brain injuries in Children is very dangerous and can cause life long problems.

 

[drop bear]

Ok how man kids are running from bulls, BASE jumping, Cave diving or driving race cars? And getting ate by a Shark really? That's your rebuttal to scientific evidence showing traumatic brain injuries in Children is very dangerous and can cause life long problems.

Cheerleading, equestrian, motocross.

Actually motocross is a pretty big sport here.

So is playing dangerous games with bulls. ( you think mma is tough try going to a rodeo)

And you never had any scientific evidence you told me to find it remember? so there was nothing to rebutt. And another poster even laid out some for you.

 

[ballen0351]

Cheerleading, equestrian, motocross.

Actually motocross is a pretty big sport here.

So is playing dangerous games with bulls. ( you think mma is tough try going to a rodeo)

And you never had any scientific evidence you told me to find it remember? so there was nothing to rebutt. And another poster even laid out some for you.

I didn't know google was so hard for you
TBI in children
http://www.biausa.org/brain-injury-children.htm
http://nichcy.org/disability/specific/tbi
http://www.childrenshospital.org/health-topics/conditions/head-or-brain-injury
http://www.asha.org/Publications/leader/2010/101102/Pediatric-Traumatic-Brain-Injury.htm
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/909105-overview
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/statistics.html
http://www.internationalbrain.org/issues-associated-with-preschool-child-traumatic-brain-injury/
http://cokidswithbraininjury.com/

MMA specific
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/11/10/5087742/ufc-mma-brain-injury-tbi-cte-concussions

One fighter, for example, says he slurs his speech for up to 36 hours after sparring sessions. He also was found wandering a department store, oblivious to how he got there. Others tell stories of being dizzy for months after a fight and unable to remember people they've met a few days earlier.

Or this from former UFC fighter Tom DeBlass:

DeBlass already retired from fighting once, last November, after losing his first two fights in the UFC. But he returned in April to a different promotion and scored a technical knockout to improve his record to 8-2.
After that win, DeBlass says, he wasn't sure he would fight again. He says his brain would ache after sparring, and his fiancee, Delilah Acevedo, says he is generally more forgetful.
This spring, for example, DeBlass was ordering takeout from Conca D'oro Restaurant in Forked River for a gathering at his home. Minutes later, he called back and tried to order his own meal again, forgetting he had already done so.​

http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/3/13/2867460/the-fighter-who-stayed-too-long

"When talking to him on the phone, his speech was becoming slurred," said Mike Mobbs, who’s counted Goodridge as his best friend since the two were nine years old, growing up in Barrie, Ontario together. "It got to the point where, when having phone conversations with him, I found myself constantly saying, ‘What did you say? Pardon?’ That, to me, was the tip-off."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...aces-to-learn-more-about-fighter-brain-injury

Earlier this spring, Bernick and his team revealed findings that showed substantial degradation in certain areas of the brains of long-tenured MMA fighters. The affected areas are critical to learning, memory and emotion. Evidently, these degradations are consistent with the symptoms of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a condition caused by multiple head injuries and characterized by dementia, memory loss, aggression, confusion and depression. CTE generally appears years, or even decades, after the trauma occurs.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't know google was so hard for you
TBI in children
http://www.biausa.org/brain-injury-children.htm
http://nichcy.org/disability/specific/tbi
http://www.childrenshospital.org/health-topics/conditions/head-or-brain-injury
http://www.asha.org/Publications/leader/2010/101102/Pediatric-Traumatic-Brain-Injury.htm
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/909105-overview
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/statistics.html
http://www.internationalbrain.org/issues-associated-with-preschool-child-traumatic-brain-injury/
http://cokidswithbraininjury.com/

MMA specific
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/11/10/5087742/ufc-mma-brain-injury-tbi-cte-concussions


http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/3/13/2867460/the-fighter-who-stayed-too-long

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...aces-to-learn-more-about-fighter-brain-injury

[/INDENT]

And I did say there was a risk.

I am not sure how you remove risk from sport.

Certainly there are ways to minimise that and mma is making steps to do so especially with younger fighters. I think there should be more focus on good refereeing good medical advice fair match ups and systems in place that reduce that risk.

I don't feel we need to condem the parents of any child that does a sport that can result in concussions.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't feel we need to condem the parents of any child that does a sport that can result in concussions.

I don't think all sports but MMA or any full contact fighting art be it TKD, Karate, Boxing where blows to the head are the norm should be restricted to adults only

 

[drop bear]

I don't think all sports but MMA or any full contact fighting art be it TKD, Karate, Boxing where blows to the head are the norm should be restricted to adults only

So are we condemning parents of football, rugby, soccer?

You are facing the issue where these risks are an acceptable part of growing up. Quite often the benefits of sport outweigh The risks.

Obesity is a big killer that starts in child hood.

Boxing has been used as a troubled youth program with good results.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

PTSD treated with mma.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

Now mental health in youth is a killer as well.

Contact sports are not going away and I don't believe as a society we would be healthier or happier if they did.

 

[ballen0351]

So are we condemning parents of football, rugby, soccer?

football is taking steps to prevent head injuries including rule changes equipment changes and at least here even the slightest belief a kid took a hard shot to the head he is pulled from game, evaluated, and if the medic think its even a slight concussion he cant go back in game, is banned from practice for 2 weeks and cant play in a game for 4 weeks and needs a doc note saying hes cleared to play. Youth Soccer is banning the use of heading the ball to try prevent this and I know nothing about rugby I don't even know if we have kids rugby here.

You are facing the issue where these risks are an acceptable part of growing up.

sure some risk but not full contact punches and kicks to the head.

Quite often the benefits of sport outweigh The risks.

not according to the Doctors

Obesity is a big killer that starts in child hood.

has nothing to do with the topic. kids can play anything other then beating each other in the head. BJJ, Judo, Grapple or wrestle if you want to keep training in MMA style and stay in shape

Boxing has been used as a troubled youth program with good results.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

great kids wear head gear and:
Because of the risk of head and facial injuries, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society oppose boxing as a sport for children and adolescents. These organizations recommend that physicians vigorously oppose boxing in youth and encourage patients to participate in alternative sports in which intentional head blows are not central to the sport.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1165.abstract

PTSD treated with mma.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

that's the same tory from the boxing above?

Contact sports are not going away and I don't believe as a society we would be healthier or happier if they did.

I don't want contact sports to go away. I just don't want kids put at unnecessary risks with repeated blows to the head. you want to do it as an adult have fun you know the risks.