Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...

[generalneon]

I joined this forum for my daughter, who is 10. She is currently a 1st dan in Tang Soo Do, about to test for her 2nd degree in April. She has put in the time, the effort, and has shown the dedication to earn her rank. She helps to instruct the lower belts in forms and sparring, and has strived to improve herself and others. She has been recognized for having forms twice as crisp as black belts twice her age. Ultimately, it depends on the kid. How a five year old earns a black belt is a mystery to me, since I thought that dedication and attrition factor into the ranking, but if a kid puts in the work, there should be no real age barrier. Black belts do, however, need to be earned.

 

[ballen0351]

I joined this forum for my daughter, who is 10. She is currently a 1st dan in Tang Soo Do, about to test for her 2nd degree in April. She has put in the time, the effort, and has shown the dedication to earn her rank. She helps to instruct the lower belts in forms and sparring, and has strived to improve herself and others. She has been recognized for having forms twice as crisp as black belts twice her age. Ultimately, it depends on the kid. How a five year old earns a black belt is a mystery to me, since I thought that dedication and attrition factor into the ranking, but if a kid puts in the work, there should be no real age barrier. Black belts do, however, need to be earned.

how long has she trained?

 

[generalneon]

how long has she trained?

She's been training since she was five, averaging between three and five classes per week, not including the Haidong Gumdo classes she takes twice a week.

 

[ballen0351]

She's been training since she was five, averaging between three and five classes per week, not including the Haidong Gumdo classes she takes twice a week.

So in 5 years shes gone from no belt to ready for 2nd dan? Is it a real adult level black belt or junior belt? We don't allow anyone under 18 to have an adult belt. We have 2 different levels of junior black belts then at 16 you can start the adult classes but cant test for black until 18. My teachers son is 17 and is amazing but he cant test for a few more months. And nobody can test for 2nd dan at 5 total years the fastest it would be possible is 8 years total.

 

[generalneon]

So in 5 years shes gone from no belt to ready for 2nd dan? Is it a real adult level black belt or junior belt? We don't allow anyone under 18 to have an adult belt. We have 2 different levels of junior black belts then at 16 you can start the adult classes but cant test for black until 18. My teachers son is 17 and is amazing but he cant test for a few more months. And nobody can test for 2nd dan at 5 total years the fastest it would be possible is 8 years total.

There is no designation between junior or senior belts, your level is your level. She has put in the hours of training, passed every test she was given, which are the exact same as anyone else testing, regardless of age. She passed her black belt test at age 8, and continued with her training for an additional 2 years, which is required to teat for 2nd degree. One of the big factors to earn the black belt is time training in the dojang, and she's in there, training, very frequently, more so than most other students her age, and more than many senior belts. She's a quick learner, very determined, and a bit of a perfectionist. Her instructor stresses discipline and power, both of which she has demonstrated frequently. She does have her moments where she displays a level of immaturity, but she will work through it to meet any and all expectations. She's earned everything she's acquired. If she's earned it, age should be irrelevant.

 

[ballen0351]

There is no designation between junior or senior belts, your level is your level. She has put in the hours of training, passed every test she was given, which are the exact same as anyone else testing, regardless of age. She passed her black belt test at age 8, and continued with her training for an additional 2 years, which is required to teat for 2nd degree. One of the big factors to earn the black belt is time training in the dojang, and she's in there, training, very frequently, more so than most other students her age, and more than many senior belts. She's a quick learner, very determined, and a bit of a perfectionist. Her instructor stresses discipline and power, both of which she has demonstrated frequently. She does have her moments where she displays a level of immaturity, but she will work through it to meet any and all expectations. She's earned everything she's acquired. If she's earned it, age should be irrelevant.

Im sure shes a great kid, but shes still a kid. Ive never seen a kid blackbelt because they don't exist in my organization. If I saw a 10 year old 2nd dan in any place I walked into looking for training, Id turn and walk out. My preference I don't believe they are on par with adults but your ok with it so good for her.

 

[generalneon]

Im sure shes a great kid, but shes still a kid. Ive never seen a kid blackbelt because they don't exist in my organization. If I saw a 10 year old 2nd dan in any place I walked into looking for training, Id turn and walk out. My preference I don't believe they are on par with adults but your ok with it so good for her.

If that's how you feel, then you're entitled to your feelings. However, you may just be impressed by the level of skill that the kid displays if you decided to hang around and watch. If the crispness and power of the kicks are what one expects, and the fluidity of the forms displayed are nearly flawless, then that would bode well for the instructor's ability to teach their students the art. That instructor shouldn't be looked down upon if young students can learn what they are teaching to the point of high accomplishment.

 

[ballen0351]

If that's how you feel, then you're entitled to your feelings. However, you may just be impressed by the level of skill that the kid displays if you decided to hang around and watch. If the crispness and power of the kicks are what one expects, and the fluidity of the forms displayed are nearly flawless, then that would bode well for the instructor's ability to teach their students the art. That instructor shouldn't be looked down upon if young students can learn what they are teaching to the point of high accomplishment.

I have no doubt kids can copy the moves but that's not understanding the material. More to it then looking good

 

[drop bear]

football is taking steps to prevent head injuries including rule changes equipment changes and at least here even the slightest belief a kid took a hard shot to the head he is pulled from game, evaluated, and if the medic think its even a slight concussion he cant go back in game, is banned from practice for 2 weeks and cant play in a game for 4 weeks and needs a doc note saying hes cleared to play. Youth Soccer is banning the use of heading the ball to try prevent this and I know nothing about rugby I don't even know if we have kids rugby here.


sure some risk but not full contact punches and kicks to the head.


not according to the Doctors

has nothing to do with the topic. kids can play anything other then beating each other in the head. BJJ, Judo, Grapple or wrestle if you want to keep training in MMA style and stay in shape

great kids wear head gear and:
Because of the risk of head and facial injuries, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society oppose boxing as a sport for children and adolescents. These organizations recommend that physicians vigorously oppose boxing in youth and encourage patients to participate in alternative sports in which intentional head blows are not central to the sport.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1165.abstract

that's the same tory from the boxing above?


I don't want contact sports to go away. I just don't want kids put at unnecessary risks with repeated blows to the head. you want to do it as an adult have fun you know the risks.

You are drawing you own lines in the sand about the risk. It went from 1 concussion is bad to well if they have systems in place it is better. To wrestling and judo may produce injuries but that is better.

And you are welcome to make that choice for yourself and your kids as other parents have drawn their own lines in the sand. And make their own choices.

Regardless and to try to get back on topic anyone who has the experience and the dedication to be a pro fighter should fill the same boxes that it takes to be a black belt. Not taking into account personal character which is of course personal.

This holds with any activity if you are pursuing a martial art and they are further along than you then listen to what they say. If this means that progress is defined by a rank then that is also OK.

It is not reasonable to base rank on what seems to be age or body weight.

Each martial arts sets its own standards on this. You can't really compare black belt in style a to black belt in style b. Gradings are not really designed to do that.

Comparing black belts changes the meaning from an achievement that is designed to mark your own progress to an achievement designed to impress others.

The same question could be raised regarding disabled black belts.

 

[ballen0351]

You are drawing you own lines in the sand about the risk. It went from 1 concussion is bad to well if they have systems in place it is better. To wrestling and judo may produce injuries but that is better.

And you are welcome to make that choice for yourself and your kids as other parents have drawn their own lines in the sand. And make their own choices.

I'm not talking about injuries that heal like broken bones or sprain ankles. Head injuries don't heal and sometimes don't even show up until decades later. There is no intent to strike the head in any of the other sports like football judo wrestling horseback riding. Its all incidental. Mma is purposely targeting the head. So when you brain is still forming and growing as a kid your parents are stupid to put you at that risk. Incidental or accidental head contact can't be avoided joining a sport that purposely targets the head is bad parenting. You want to ignore the data fine go for it but again I feel bad for her when she's 40 and can't remember her kids names.

Regardless and to try to get back on topic anyone who has the experience and the dedication to be a pro fighter should fill the same boxes that it takes to be a black belt.

One has nothing to do with the other. Plenty of pro fighters don't have black belts and pleant of black belts could never make it as a pro fighter.

Not taking into account personal character which is of course personal.

This holds with any activity if you are pursuing a martial art and they are further along than you then listen to what they say. If this means that progress is defined by a rank then that is also OK.

That's where I disagree a 5 yr old black belt doesn't have the intellectual capacity to thoroughly explain the finer details of a form or kata or bunkai.

It is not reasonable to base rank on what seems to be age or body weight.

Tell a 7 year old to explain how to tie his shoe. They have been doing it for a few years so its not hard. They can't they don't have the capacity. Now ask a 10 yr old black belt to explain a black belt lvl kata and the details of a bunkai. They might be able to copy the teacher and preform the moves but that's not enough.

Each martial arts sets its own standards on this. You can't really compare black belt in style a to black belt in style b. Gradings are not really designed to do that.

I agree to an extent but if your rank test is the same for a 5 year old kid and a 25 year old something's wrong there.

Comparing black belts changes the meaning from an achievement that is designed to mark your own progress to an achievement designed to impress others.

The same question could be raised regarding disabled black belts.

Depends on the disability. Physical disability its not even close to similar. Mental then yes depending on severity

 

[K-man]

Bad parenting there. Letting a 14 year old full contact fight is borderline child abuse. with all the data coming out about brain injuries and allowing a 14 yr old take multiple blows to the head like that is stupid.

Totally in agreement.

It is a Queensland thing. Kids are just brought up tougher here.

I don't believe it is a Queensland thing at all. Stupid is where you find it.

I think you are overestimating the risk. Of contact sports mma suffers some of the least head trauma. And has very good safety measures.

I don't believe there is any evidence anywhere to support this statement.

And I think your not paying attention to all the data coming out about brain injuries. And we have no idea the damage being caused to a 14 yr old whos brain is still growing and*developing.

True again.

Yeah I got the implied "we are just tougher then you" BS the first time. Like I said don't matter how tough you are physics are physics and being tough won't stop a kids brain from banging around in the skull. You wanna do it as an adult great known the risk under stand the risk and go for it. Hopefully I'm wrong but since we are only now taking this stuff seriously and really studying Traumatic brain injury on adult athletes and seeing even repeated small hits over the course of a few years can cause major damage later in life this girl won't know the damage for another 20 or 30 years. Hey but you guys are just tougher down there so physics don't apply to her I guess.

Mate, how could I disagree with you that we are tougher Down Under. That goes with the territory. But we are not all stupid and the physics applies regardless of tough.

Again all that is irrelevent were talking science and facts and facts are showing repeated blows to the head are bad for adults and we have limited data on kids brains but what i have been reading the data we do have shows amd even great effect at a younger age.

Sure she can run around with a black belt that's meaningless to me when she will be drooling and forgetting her name at 40.

Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.

Mohammad Ali was 42 when diagnosed with his problems. If you look at the time frame his career spanned 22 years but the major trauma occurred in the later stages of his career when he started getting hit. MMA hasn't been around long enough to see the problems but I have no doubt that the damage will become evident.

Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, Ali’s long-time ringside physician, is one of those who feels boxing alone is not to blame, but rather the fact that Ali continued fighting longer than he should have. “Boxing in and out of itself is not the cause of Muhammad Ali’s brain injuries, but rather, it was Muhammad Ali fighting for too long and fighting at an advanced age that resulted in his injuries,” he stated.


When asked after which fight he felt he should have retired, Ali simply said, “Foreman,” referring to his 1974 world heavyweight title clash with George Foreman, The Rumble in the Jungle.


Many agree with this evaluation, arguing that Ali should have stopped his career after that triumphant victory in Zaire. But the fact remains that he did not. In fact he went on to fight another 14 times before retiring in 1981. Ali’s last two fights in particular, defeats to Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick, saw ‘The Greatest’ suffer unnecessary and consistent punishment.

I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.

A very fine fine line at that. I would suggest that even with top quality headgear I wouldn't allow a child into full contact fighting.

The long term effects of even a single concussion in a child can be devastating. Pretending that it's no big deal won't change that. And while you may not have noticed the early onset of significant cognitive degeneration in people who have had multiple concussions, I can assure you that those of us in emergency medicine see it far too often.

This needs to be read again ... slowly, so it sinks in.

And my point is mma is one of the lesser risky sports.
http://www.scifighting.com/2013/11/20/16325/12-sports-dangerous-mma/

That's a joke, right? There may be be sports with more chance of injury but few with more chance of brain injury. Not one of the people involved in these activities goes out in the knowledge that they are likely to be hit multiple times to the head.

Cheerleading, equestrian, motocross.

Actually motocross is a pretty big sport here.

So is playing dangerous games with bulls. ( you think mma is tough try going to a rodeo)

And you never had any scientific evidence you told me to find it remember? so there was nothing to rebutt. And another poster even laid out some for you.

Cheerleaders punching each other to the head? No
Equestrian eventers or jockeys punching each other? Mmm! Not within the rules.
Motocross guys in a punch up? See previous answer.
MMA guys punching each other to the head? Sure, not a problem.

And I did say there was a risk.

I am not sure how you remove risk from sport.

Certainly there are ways to minimise that and mma is making steps to do so especially with younger fighters. I think there should be more focus on good refereeing good medical advice fair match ups and systems in place that reduce that risk.

I don't feel we need to condem the parents of any child that does a sport that can result in concussions.

You can't remove the risk of injury from sport or from life in general. Everything comes down to risk management and avoiding things that are likely to cause long term permanent damage. MMA would be in the the top group of sports where competitors are likely to suffer ABI. Any parent that knowingly exposes their child to that risk is open to condemnation.

I don't think all sports but MMA or any full contact fighting art be it TKD, Karate, Boxing where blows to the head are the norm should be restricted to adults only

Years ago as a junior boxer I would have disagreed. With the more recent medical evidence I concur. At what age a person can take such a decision is debatable.

So are we condemning parents of football, rugby, soccer?

You are facing the issue where these risks are an acceptable part of growing up. Quite often the benefits of sport outweigh The risks.

Obesity is a big killer that starts in child hood.

Boxing has been used as a troubled youth program with good results.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

PTSD treated with mma.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

Now mental health in youth is a killer as well.

Contact sports are not going away and I don't believe as a society we would be healthier or happier if they did.

We are not discussing contact sports. We are discussing MMA or martial arts. I no longer allow hard punching to the head in our training. It just isn't worth the risk. If as an adult, you make the decision to engage in a sport that could cause you long term disability, that is your call. For me, martial art training is great for many reasons, but being hit in the head is not one of them.

sure some risk but not full contact punches and kicks to the head.

Because of the risk of head and facial injuries, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society oppose boxing as a sport for children and adolescents. These organizations recommend that physicians vigorously oppose boxing in youth and encourage patients to participate in alternative sports in which intentional head blows are not central to the sport.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1165.abstract

that's the same story from the boxing above?

I don't want contact sports to go away. I just don't want kids put at unnecessary risks with repeated blows to the head. you want to do it as an adult have fun you know the risks.

Spot on! Mate I hope you got a Rep for this thread. (I tried)

 

[jks9199]

Folks, let's try to shift back on topic about young black belts. And on that note, let's try to remember that the meaning of a black belt is really dependent on the school and association, sometimes even changing over time. Let's not excoriate a kid because of how their teachers do things, OK?

 

[drop bear]

I'm not talking about injuries that heal like broken bones or sprain ankles. Head injuries don't heal and sometimes don't even show up until decades later. There is no intent to strike the head in any of the other sports like football judo wrestling horseback riding. Its all incidental. Mma is purposely targeting the head. So when you brain is still forming and growing as a kid your parents are stupid to put you at that risk. Incidental or accidental head contact can't be avoided joining a sport that purposely targets the head is bad parenting. You want to ignore the data fine go for it but again I feel bad for her when she's 40 and can't remember her kids names.

One has nothing to do with the other. Plenty of pro fighters don't have black belts and pleant of black belts could never make it as a pro fighter.

That's where I disagree a 5 yr old black belt doesn't have the intellectual capacity to thoroughly explain the finer details of a form or kata or bunkai.

Tell a 7 year old to explain how to tie his shoe. They have been doing it for a few years so its not hard. They can't they don't have the capacity. Now ask a 10 yr old black belt to explain a black belt lvl kata and the details of a bunkai. They might be able to copy the teacher and preform the moves but that's not enough.

I agree to an extent but if your rank test is the same for a 5 year old kid and a 25 year old something's wrong there.


Depends on the disability. Physical disability its not even close to similar. Mental then yes depending on severity

And again you are making you own choice about risk. And what is acceptable. Just like everybody else gets to.

The point is that if you can use your martial arts to win fights then that is an indicator that you understand it. I don't get the point of Kata so I don't do it. I don't condem other people who choose to do it.

And this is the point I am trying to make. I don't judge other styles by my standards. I don't think that is reasonable if it is working for them fine.

So if for example people want to give down syndrome kid a black belt that he worked for. Then he deserves that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ujCeYfAyU

If they want to give a child a black belt that they worked for fine.

Just because someone is awarded a black belt it does not really mean they will be called upon to fight crime or win fights. It is for them and their club. Not me,not my club and not to meet my expectations

 

[drop bear]

Folks, let's try to shift back on topic about young black belts. And on that note, let's try to remember that the meaning of a black belt is really dependent on the school and association, sometimes even changing over time. Let's not excoriate a kid because of how their teachers do things, OK?

Yeah fair point.

 

[K-man]

There is no designation between junior or senior belts, your level is your level. She has put in the hours of training, passed every test she was given, which are the exact same as anyone else testing, regardless of age. She passed her black belt test at age 8, and continued with her training for an additional 2 years, which is required to teat for 2nd degree. One of the big factors to earn the black belt is time training in the dojang, and she's in there, training, very frequently, more so than most other students her age, and more than many senior belts. She's a quick learner, very determined, and a bit of a perfectionist. Her instructor stresses discipline and power, both of which she has demonstrated frequently. She does have her moments where she displays a level of immaturity, but she will work through it to meet any and all expectations. She's earned everything she's acquired. If she's earned it, age should be irrelevant.

Forgive me if I disagree. I have seen too many babies walking around with black belts. Designate them as juniors, sure. But to equate the child's rank with an adult rank is a joke. I'm with Ballen ​on this one.

If that's how you feel, then you're entitled to your feelings. However, you may just be impressed by the level of skill that the kid displays if you decided to hang around and watch. If the crispness and power of the kicks are what one expects, and the fluidity of the forms displayed are nearly flawless, then that would bode well for the instructor's ability to teach their students the art. That instructor shouldn't be looked down upon if young students can learn what they are teaching to the point of high accomplishment.

I once saw a thirteen year old grade to adult black belt and it was just pitiful. He had the knowledge but not the physical ability. I have a sixteen year old with three times the ability and much more knowledge but it will be two more years before he gets his black. When he does he will wear it with pride in any company.

At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation. If your organisation gives out black belts to 8 year olds fine, but don't expect others to look at that with more than a mild amusement.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Forgive me if I disagree. I have seen too many babies walking around with black belts. Designate them as juniors, sure. But to equate the child's rank with an adult rank is a joke. I'm with Ballen ​on this one.

I once saw a thirteen year old grade to adult black belt and it was just pitiful. He had the knowledge but not the physical ability. I have a sixteen year old with three times the ability and much more knowledge but it will be two more years before he gets his black. When he does he will wear it with pride in any company.

At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation. If your organisation gives out black belts to 8 year olds fine, but don't expect others to look at that with more than a mild amusement.
:asian:

Why is there an expectation at all that other people are supposed to be impressed by your black belt?

What happens when you encounter someone who has done their bb harder?

I am not sure at all about this idea that people are walking around with this concept that their bb is more awesome than anybody else's.

 

[ballen0351]

And again you are making you own choice about risk. And what is acceptable. Just like everybody else gets to.

Its not "my" choice. Its what the medical professionals are finding out.

The point is that if you can use your martial arts to win fights then that is an indicator that you understand it.

True but that has nothing to do with a black belt I know orange belts or green belts that can win fights.

I don't get the point of Kata so I don't do it. I don't condem other people who choose to do it.

Which is fine but if were talking about an art that teaches them i just dont believe a 10 year old is mentally capable of understanding them. They can copy the moves no doubt but dont understand what they are doing.

And this is the point I am trying to make. I don't judge other styles by my standards. I don't think that is reasonable if it is working for them fine.

Which is fine I dont judge people either but the point of a forum is to give ideas and opinions and someone asked the question. And in my opinion if I walked into a school looking for training and saw kids with black belts my first thought is Mcdojo and Im walking out. I could be totally wrong but thats my opinion.

So if for example people want to give down syndrome kid a black belt that he worked for. Then he deserves that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ujCeYfAyU

Got no problem with that. At my dojo we have a few special needs kids. We give them ranks but also take into consoderation there limitations and grade accordingly.

If they want to give a child a black belt that they worked for fine.

Just because someone is awarded a black belt it does not really mean they will be called upon to fight crime or win fights. It is for them and their club. Not me,not my club and not to meet my expectations

I agree but whats your opinion? Would you award an adult rank to a 5 yr old?

 

[ballen0351]

Why is there an expectation at all that other people are supposed to be impressed by your black belt?

What happens when you encounter someone who has done their bb harder?

I am not sure at all about this idea that people are walking around with this concept that their bb is more awesome than anybody else's.

I don't think it has anything to do with one black belt is better then another's but if your test is the same for an 8 yr old and a 28 yr old its either way to hard for one or way to easy for the other. There is too much difference mentally physically and emotionally between the ages for the tests and material covered to be equal for both ages.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think it has anything to do with one black belt is better then another's but if your test is the same for an 8 yr old and a 28 yr old its either way to hard for one or way to easy for the other. There is too much difference mentally physically and emotionally between the ages for the tests and material covered to be equal for both ages.

It would solve your age problem though. Either they could do it or they can't.

But k man is judging his black belt off other styles.

 

[drop bear]

Its not "my" choice. Its what the medical professionals are finding out.

True but that has nothing to do with a black belt I know orange belts or green belts that can win fights.

Which is fine but if were talking about an art that teaches them i just dont believe a 10 year old is mentally capable of understanding them. They can copy the moves no doubt but dont understand what they are doing.

Which is fine I dont judge people either but the point of a forum is to give ideas and opinions and someone asked the question. And in my opinion if I walked into a school looking for training and saw kids with black belts my first thought is Mcdojo and Im walking out. I could be totally wrong but thats my opinion.

Got no problem with that. At my dojo we have a few special needs kids. We give them ranks but also take into consoderation there limitations and grade accordingly.

I agree but whats your opinion? Would you award an adult rank to a 5 yr old?

And so now you are drawing a line in the sand about what does as does not make a black belt. And again that is fine and your choice. Just like it is fine and their choice to have their own standards.

An adult rank in our system is a guy who fights. That is about the criteria. You have the fight team and you have everybody else. Otherwise there is no rankings except for things like the sherdog ones.