Belt Rank Progress

[PhotonGuy]

Instances of weird dojo politics aside (and those circumstances do arise) I disagree with this. Not everyone becomes proficient at the same pace. I have a student who has been with me since 2009 and whom I will only promote to shodan next year if they can resolve three specific issues. These issues have been identified and he has made progress, but he simply is very slow in making progress. And he isn't a slacker. I have another student who started last September who has surpassed him, and did so some time ago. He simply is a natural. The rest of my students are somewhere in between.

We don't train for rank. And if any of my students are preoccupied with getting rank, then they are training for the wrong reason. I'm still happy to train them, but the desire for advancement is actually an inhibiting factor in advancement.

One of the issues that I have with belt systems is that students who are more prize oriented tend to fixate on the belts. It also sets up a hierarchy that isn't entriely accurate; any colored belt and even a newly minted shodan isn't really "senior" to anyone but a raw beginner anyway, so nobody should be fixating on it anyway.

Well at least the student knows what he is doing wrong, he knows the issues that have to be resolved and he is working on them. That is the important thing. If you told the student what he needs to work on to get a black belt than as far as Im concerned you are doing your job. If he is having a hard time with these issues than he just needs to work harder.

As for naturals, I think its possible to be natural with some stuff but not with others. Michael Jordan was arguably the best basketball player in the history of the sport but he wasn't that good at baseball. I once knew this guy who was a really good swimmer and who held records for swimming but he wasn't a good runner. As for me, I've got what you would call natural ability in kicking, I've got really strong kicks and I've always been good at stuff where you use your legs, not just for kicks in the martial arts but in other stuff too such as certain weight lifting exercises that use the legs such as the squat. With hand strikes, on the other hand, Im not as good with those. I've never been as good with the upper body and that's my weakness.

 

[MJS]

Maybe you did, and I may have missed it. I asked him on the last page earlier today.

No problem.

Correct; they could be not ready and would fail the test. Just as with drivers license testing.

Some schools that I've seen, do a 'pre-test', which is basically a quick, informal 'test' before the test, to serve as a quick run thru of all material. Sure, the brain fart can still happen, but the pre test would hopefully help the student pass. My current school doesn't do this. My teacher is old school, so we're most likely being 'tested' every class. How we all perform, are we improving on weak areas, how much effort we put out in class, during sparring, how many times you show up to class, time in grade, etc, is the measuring stick he uses.

Presumably, the rest of your performance was satisfactory. You passed and moved on to the next grade.

I was exhausted after that test, but I got the thumbs up from my teacher, as well as some of the other black belts and people that were there to watch.

Like I said, I don't endorse the idea, though I'm not philosophically opposed to it either. It really comes down to what you're used to and to what works in a particular school. Personally, I do not charge for testing and have considered dropping gradings prior to ikkyu because all the grading really is for is to determine whether they're proficient in their current unit.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.

Instances of weird dojo politics aside (and those circumstances do arise) I disagree with this. Not everyone becomes proficient at the same pace. I have a student who has been with me since 2009 and whom I will only promote to shodan next year if they can resolve three specific issues. These issues have been identified and he has made progress, but he simply is very slow in making progress. And he isn't a slacker. I have another student who started last September who has surpassed him, and did so some time ago. He simply is a natural. The rest of my students are somewhere in between.

We don't train for rank. And if any of my students are preoccupied with getting rank, then they are training for the wrong reason. I'm still happy to train them, but the desire for advancement is actually an inhibiting factor in advancement.

One of the issues that I have with belt systems is that students who are more prize oriented tend to fixate on the belts. It also sets up a hierarchy that isn't entriely accurate; any colored belt and even a newly minted shodan isn't really "senior" to anyone but a raw beginner anyway, so nobody should be fixating on it anyway.

Well at least the student knows what he is doing wrong, he knows the issues that have to be resolved and he is working on them. That is the important thing. If you told the student what he needs to work on to get a black belt than as far as Im concerned you are doing your job. If he is having a hard time with these issues than he just needs to work harder.

On the other hand, hard work isn't always the answer. Which is what I was getting at. You can work very, very hard and make no visible progress.

Sometimes it's because the hard work is paying off but the results are not showing and it will simply take more time to achieve the needed result(s).

Other times, the hard work isn't done correctly. And as a long time practitioner and as an instructor, I will tell you that I have both seen and had students who work hard but refuse to follow the specific advice that I have given them. Usually because they have become attached to some bad habit that they've developed and aren't willing to address it for one reason or another, but continue under the delusion that if they "work harder/bust their butt" on this bad habit, they can somehow make it work even though it's just a bad habit.

You may also have an issue where the hard working, and perhaps naturally gifted, student is an insufferable jerk with serious maturity issues and the sensei is unwilling to provide him/her with senior status over other students due to concerns that (s)he will treat their black belt like some badge that allows them to boss around or talk down to colored belts students.

The reason that I disagreed with your statement is that it implies that the absence of a black belt in the face of hard work within an appropriate time frame is somehow the fault of the sensei and absolves the student of all responsibility due to hard work, and this simply is not the case in many instances.

As for naturals, I think its possible to be natural with some stuff but not with others. Michael Jordan was arguably the best basketball player in the history of the sport but he wasn't that good at baseball. I once knew this guy who was a really good swimmer and who held records for swimming but he wasn't a good runner. As for me, I've got what you would call natural ability in kicking, I've got really strong kicks and I've always been good at stuff where you use your legs, not just for kicks in the martial arts but in other stuff too such as certain weight lifting exercises that use the legs such as the squat. With hand strikes, on the other hand, Im not as good with those. I've never been as good with the upper body and that's my weakness.

Generally, when people refer to a "natural" in the context of a martial art, they are talking about someone who picks up the art relatively quickly and with little difficulty. Yes, they may be stronger in some areas than in others, but on the whole, they grasp the material and attain proficiency in a seemingly textbook manner. This doesn't imply identical levels of execution across all techniques or that the individual is a natural in activities outside of the scope of the art/sport/activity in which the instructor is observing him/her.

 

[MJS]

If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point?

So, in your opinion, you're saying that you don't feel that there's anything else to learn?

The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job. If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.

I've taught more than my share of classes. I'm sorry, I didn't know that an instructor was supposed to be capable of working magic in addition to the arts. News flash for you, but like anything in life, a teacher can only do so much. If the student isn't doing their part, then I'm sorry, to say, but you're wrong...it isn't just the teachers fault. As it was pointed out to you already, just because someone is 'busting their butt' as you put it, does not mean that the student is really grasping the art or the things the teacher is teaching.

 

[David Lader]

I appreciate your concern here...
Really, at the end of the day, as they say, there are so many styles, schools, organizations, etc., that there never has been, nor will there ever be, any true standards for advancement in the martial arts...
What we call "Martial Arts" is so remarkably broad, worldwide and throughout history, that each individual, and/or each individual Master/Instructor, must ultimately decide for themselves what "progress" and varying degrees of technical proficiency looks like. I believe there is nothing wrong with designing protocols and having standards, which may include "benchmarks" or "ranks." Still, people have been training to fight and defend forever, and anyone who wants to systematize their particular way of preparing for battle is simply making it up as they go... Some folks are far more proficient martial aritsts than others, and some systems are more likely to produce effective warriors than others. Still, we're all just making this up as we go, so I think it's important to not take ourselves, or anyone, for that matter, too seriously...
Do your training, trust your teacher, and get your new belts whenever your school decides your ready...focus on the process, not the outcome...
Train hard, train smart, and be well.
David M. Lader
5th Dan Tae Kwon Do Master
http://www.warriorsdance.com

 

[MJS]

I appreciate your concern here...
Really, at the end of the day, as they say, there are so many styles, schools, organizations, etc., that there never has been, nor will there ever be, any true standards for advancement in the martial arts...
What we call "Martial Arts" is so remarkably broad, worldwide and throughout history, that each individual, and/or each individual Master/Instructor, must ultimately decide for themselves what "progress" and varying degrees of technical proficiency looks like. I believe there is nothing wrong with designing protocols and having standards, which may include "benchmarks" or "ranks." Still, people have been training to fight and defend forever, and anyone who wants to systematize their particular way of preparing for battle is simply making it up as they go... Some folks are far more proficient martial aritsts than others, and some systems are more likely to produce effective warriors than others. Still, we're all just making this up as we go, so I think it's important to not take ourselves, or anyone, for that matter, too seriously...
Do your training, trust your teacher, and get your new belts whenever your school decides your ready...focus on the process, not the outcome...
Train hard, train smart, and be well.
David M. Lader
5th Dan Tae Kwon Do Master
http://www.warriorsdance.com

Well, IMO, I don't think that there should be one way of doing things for every art. Of course, as we know, some arts are known for their questionable testing/promoting habits, so....

Not quite sure what you mean by 'making it up as we go'. As I've said many times, I could care less about belts, ranks, tests, etc. That is not what matters...what matters, is the knowledge, how well the material is taught, applied, understood, etc, to name a few. Some schools ie: McDojos, are more concerned with keeping the people happy, even though they suck, rather than quality students.

 

[Hyoho]

I didn't read all the thread but the highest population in MA is kids. Its like little league. Also Japanese love groups an achievement. For many in more modern MA its not about culture but, "What grade are you trying for next?".

We shouldn't get bogged down by colours. A shodan is a beginners rank. We have the rest of our lives for more and surprisingly the biggest drop out rate is 6th Dan.


As we get older we get out of the belt idea apart from the fact a nice wide obi gives us good back support.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Other times, the hard work isn't done correctly. And as a long time practitioner and as an instructor, I will tell you that I have both seen and had students who work hard but refuse to follow the specific advice that I have given them. Usually because they have become attached to some bad habit that they've developed and aren't willing to address it for one reason or another, but continue under the delusion that if they "work harder/bust their butt" on this bad habit, they can somehow make it work even though it's just a bad habit.

You may also have an issue where the hard working, and perhaps naturally gifted, student is an insufferable jerk with serious maturity issues and the sensei is unwilling to provide him/her with senior status over other students due to concerns that (s)he will treat their black belt like some badge that allows them to boss around or talk down to colored belts students.

The reason that I disagreed with your statement is that it implies that the absence of a black belt in the face of hard work within an appropriate time frame is somehow the fault of the sensei and absolves the student of all responsibility due to hard work, and this simply is not the case in many instances.


Generally, when people refer to a "natural" in the context of a martial art, they are talking about someone who picks up the art relatively quickly and with little difficulty. Yes, they may be stronger in some areas than in others, but on the whole, they grasp the material and attain proficiency in a seemingly textbook manner. This doesn't imply identical levels of execution across all techniques or that the individual is a natural in activities outside of the scope of the art/sport/activity in which the instructor is observing him/her.

Well aside from working hard a student also has to work smart and listen to and follow what the instructor says. If the instructor is telling the student to do something a certain way and the student isn't following such instructions and keeps doing it the wrong way than its the student's fault for lack of progress. Working hard at doing it the wrong way will only make the student better at doing it the wrong way. However, I believe its the sensei's job to tell the student what they are doing wrong and how to fix it. A sensei should tell a student what the student needs to do to get to the next belt rank, including the black belt if that happens to be the next rank. The sensei should tell the student, "what you need to do to get a black belt is blah blah blah." It's the sensei's job to provide that information.

As for a "natural" who picks up the art quickly, I think much of that has to do with attitude and passion. Somebody who has a passion for something, be it martial arts or anything else will naturally pick it up quickly. Some people just do martial arts as a hobby and don't put much into it whereas other people make a career out of it. Much of it has to do with mindset and a love for the art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well aside from working hard a student also has to work smart and listen to and follow what the instructor says. If the instructor is telling the student to do something a certain way and the student isn't following such instructions and keeps doing it the wrong way than its the student's fault for lack of progress. Working hard at doing it the wrong way will only make the student better at doing it the wrong way. However, I believe its the sensei's job to tell the student what they are doing wrong and how to fix it.

It isn't always a matter of fault. Some students progress at the rate they progress. You can't make a student move at a pace they are incapable of attaining or maintaining. The end result is a hurried and half baked first degree.

But first degree is really meaningless. If you are associating awarding of merit badges with progress, then you're operating under false premise. Students who are worried about merit badges and rank are there for the wrong reason. I'm happy to have them (a paying student is a paying student), and in time, some mature and get past their preoccupation with meaningless merit badges. Others attain their badges but miss some of the sights along the way.

Don't be focused on merit badges. And truly, that is what colored belts are. Set actual training goals and when you're in class, focus on what is being taught and on what you're doing (this is to the general you, not specifically you).

A sensei should tell a student what the student needs to do to get to the next belt rank, including the black belt if that happens to be the next rank. The sensei should tell the student, "what you need to do to get a black belt is blah blah blah." It's the sensei's job to provide that information.

Sure is. It is the instructor's job to provide the information needed for yellow belt as well. But unless you have an instructor who is intentionally witholding information to keep students in colored belts for a longer time, which is rare in my observation (the unscrupulous instructors tend to be the opposite and try to hurry you through), this has no relation to the length of time it takes a student to reach first degree.

As for a "natural" who picks up the art quickly, I think much of that has to do with attitude and passion. Somebody who has a passion for something, be it martial arts or anything else will naturally pick it up quickly. Some people just do martial arts as a hobby and don't put much into it whereas other people make a career out of it. Much of it has to do with mindset and a love for the art.

No, that's not what I'm talking about, though it certainly helps.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sure is. It is the instructor's job to provide the information needed for yellow belt as well. But unless you have an instructor who is intentionally witholding information to keep students in colored belts for a longer time, which is rare in my observation (the unscrupulous instructors tend to be the opposite and try to hurry you through), this has no relation to the length of time it takes a student to reach first degree..

Well yes. It is the sensei's job to provide the information but after thinking this over quite a bit I've come to the conclusion that its also the student's job to ask. If the student needs certain information on obtaining a belt rank, be it black belt or whatever, he needs to ask the sensei about it. You've got a mouth, you've got to use it. In the same way that a student taking an academic class who wants to get an A, they should talk to their teacher about it and ask their teacher what they need to do to get an A. A student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei and ask their sensei what they need to do to get to the next belt, and that includes the black belt if it happens to be the next belt.

 

[David Lader]

This all really depends on the degree to which a student is willing to "show up" within the context of a very traditional teacher/student relationship dynamic...

Even more important is the manner in which the instructor chooses to be a teacher. If it is predominantly about the teacher earning a living and catering to the desires of every person who walks through the door, that establishes an entirely different set of ground rules. Also, none of this is "black and white" science, as this is all about human relationships, and there is no one "right way..." Still, what works best for me with my students through the years is as follows: The longer a student humbly "shows up" for whatever I ask of them, the more I am willing to be in a conversation with them about what they need to be working on, the best way to achieve this, and what my expectations are for their next rank... The newer the student, the less interested I am in discussing any of these issues.

Interestingly, and without fail, all of my most outstanding and accomplished students throughout my many years of teaching have never asked me when they would "rank" next or what they should be working on... They simply trusted the process... If the results aren't meaningful and satisfying, leave... The rank, in and of itself, is a fairly unreliable measure of the substance any one practitioner is gleaning from their training...

Peace.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Interestingly, and without fail, all of my most outstanding and accomplished students throughout my many years of teaching have never asked me when they would "rank" next or what they should be working on... They simply trusted the process... If the results aren't meaningful and satisfying, leave... The rank, in and of itself, is a fairly unreliable measure of the substance any one practitioner is gleaning from their training...

Peace.

In just about everything in life, whether its martial arts or something else, you have to learn from a good teacher and you have to be a good learner and that includes talking to the teacher and asking your teacher what you need to do to get to the next belt, rank, level, ect. In academic school, if a student wants to get an A in a class, the student of course must study hard to get the A but a good student will also talk to the teacher about it. I once had a professor who respected students who went to him and asked him what they needed to do to get an A. All the studying in the world won't get you an A if you're not doing it right and if you're not aware of your teacher's standards and expectations. In Boy Scouts, a scout who wants to get an Eagle badge should talk to their scoutmaster about it. As a matter of fact, to get the Eagle badge have to talk to your scoutmaster because on of the requirements to be an Eagle Scout is that you have to do a community service project that other scouts help you with but where you lead, where you're in charge. To do such a project you have to talk to your scoutmaster so that he will set you up with something. The same thing with the martial arts, if you want to get to a certain belt level be it black belt or whatever, a good student should talk to their sensei about it. It's the same thing about an academic student talking to their teacher about getting an A or a boy scout talking to their scoutmaster about becoming an Eagle Scout. Somebody who just trusts the process will become very frustrated and might become downright depressed and feel worthless when they aren't getting the results they're shooting for. I am by no means saying students should be arrogant and demand a belt, or for that matter an A or a badge in boy scouts, I am saying students should humbly ask their teacher, professor, scoutmaster, sensei, ect. what they need to do to get to the next level, what they need to do to meet their instructor's standards. To simply trust the process, I myself foolishly made the mistake of following that philosophy and it practically ruined my life. So I speak from my own bad experience, that is not how you get ahead in the martial arts, or in life for that matter.

 

[David Lader]

If my teachers have had certain ways of moving or "being" that I've admired, been attracted to, and wished to have manifest in my own life, I've been most successful at achieving this end when I have simply waited for direction and emulated them to the best of my ability. If I think I am unsafe in any way, I can always choose to move on... My teachers are not gods, and none have had "all the answers..." It's been child's play to find faults with my various instructors through the years... The real work has been developing the patience, humility, and willingness to wait for the ONE gem from each of my chosen teachers (and we DO choose our teachers) that has, invariably changed my life for the better. When I am busy finding out what I have to do to get rank, or an A, I am not fully present to what my teacher is saying and sharing in the moment, and I will miss the best stuff...

Life is full of hurts, dissappointments, and betrayals, and our teachers often let us down in various ways. Still, I must take responsibility for my own decisions and risk the bruises in order to learn the meaningful lessons. As warriors, we must take such calculated risks, or we will never thrive... It's ok to be both grateful to our teachers for the new knowledge and willing to move on when we've learned what we need to learn - but that is really up to us... No one forces me to choose a real teacher, and a real teacher has no attachment to "keeping" me longer than I need to be around...

One of my teachers shared this with me long ago: "A student comes to his master and says 'Master,' how long will it take me to become a master like you?' The master replies 'many, many years, young one...' The student then asks 'what if I work twice as hard?' to which the master replies 'It will then take you twice as long, for you will always have one eye on the outcome, leaving only one eye in the present with which to study...'"

Please, I mean no disrespect in our exchange...We need not agree...only value each others' process.

Peace to You...be well...

 

[Balrog]

I'm somewhat of a dinosaur. I believe that students should stay current on their low-rank material, because practicing the lower forms will help with the current form. In addition, there is the expectation that a Black Belt should know the curriculum for whatever discipline they practice.

Once a student has promoted past Yellow Belt in my school, they are liable to be asked to demonstrate low rank forms at their testings. In addition, to get permission to test from brown to red, they must sign off on the first 5 ranks, and to promote from red to red/black, they have to sign off on the remainder. At red/black, they have to sign off on everything from White Belt on up to get permission to test for Black Belt, and on their Black Belt testing, they will present their current form and at least 5 of the 8 lower ranked forms. They don't know which ones I'll pick, so they have to be up to speed on them all.

 

[David Lader]

I'm somewhat of a dinosaur. I believe that students should stay current on their low-rank material, because practicing the lower forms will help with the current form. In addition, there is the expectation that a Black Belt should know the curriculum for whatever discipline they practice.

Once a student has promoted past Yellow Belt in my school, they are liable to be asked to demonstrate low rank forms at their testings. In addition, to get permission to test from brown to red, they must sign off on the first 5 ranks, and to promote from red to red/black, they have to sign off on the remainder. At red/black, they have to sign off on everything from White Belt on up to get permission to test for Black Belt, and on their Black Belt testing, they will present their current form and at least 5 of the 8 lower ranked forms. They don't know which ones I'll pick, so they have to be up to speed on them all.

I completely agree...I share your experience, and this is in-line with how I ran my traditional schools...

 

[PhotonGuy]

If my teachers have had certain ways of moving or "being" that I've admired, been attracted to, and wished to have manifest in my own life, I've been most successful at achieving this end when I have simply waited for direction and emulated them to the best of my ability. If I think I am unsafe in any way, I can always choose to move on... My teachers are not gods, and none have had "all the answers..." It's been child's play to find faults with my various instructors through the years... The real work has been developing the patience, humility, and willingness to wait for the ONE gem from each of my chosen teachers (and we DO choose our teachers) that has, invariably changed my life for the better. When I am busy finding out what I have to do to get rank, or an A, I am not fully present to what my teacher is saying and sharing in the moment, and I will miss the best stuff...

Life is full of hurts, dissappointments, and betrayals, and our teachers often let us down in various ways. Still, I must take responsibility for my own decisions and risk the bruises in order to learn the meaningful lessons. As warriors, we must take such calculated risks, or we will never thrive... It's ok to be both grateful to our teachers for the new knowledge and willing to move on when we've learned what we need to learn - but that is really up to us... No one forces me to choose a real teacher, and a real teacher has no attachment to "keeping" me longer than I need to be around...

One of my teachers shared this with me long ago: "A student comes to his master and says 'Master,' how long will it take me to become a master like you?' The master replies 'many, many years, young one...' The student then asks 'what if I work twice as hard?' to which the master replies 'It will then take you twice as long, for you will always have one eye on the outcome, leaving only one eye in the present with which to study...'"

Please, I mean no disrespect in our exchange...We need not agree...only value each others' process.

Peace to You...be well...

I don't agree with all eastern philosophy. The philosophy about something taking twice as long when they work twice as hard is one of those philosophies that I don't particularly agree with, by that logic, if I did absolutely nothing I would get to my goal instantaneously. From my own experience in the real world the harder and more efficient you work the sooner you reach your goals and you get more out of the process. That is why the USA is such a great country that it is, our forefathers worked hard and America has a strong work ethic and your classic American philosophy is to set a goal and go for it. As an American and as a former Boy Scout I follow that philosophy. If you want to get a college degree it makes sense to know what classes you have to take, doesn't it?

In Boyscouts, becoming an Eagle Scout, the top level, takes so many years and you have to get so many merit badges and do some other stuff. Now, lets say you work harder and get twice the number of merit badges in half the time as well as fulfilling the other requirements, you will become an Eagle Scout all the sooner which seems to be exactly the opposite of that philosophy about a student working twice as hard and taking twice as long to reach their goal as a result of that.

Furthermore, to become an Eagle Scout you do need to talk to your scoutmaster about it. One of the requirements to be an Eagle Scout is a community service project and for that you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it so that he can set you up with something. Furthermore to be an Eagle Scout does have a time limit, you have to do it before you turn 18 so you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it before its too late. Even if it didn't have a time limit you would still need to talk to your scoutmaster some time or another if you ever want to be an Eagle Scout so that he can set you up with a community service project, otherwise you will never be an Eagle Scout even if you had a million years. Sometimes, quite often, its necessary to talk to a teacher, sensei, instructor, just to get the proper information.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to get a black belt, an Eagle badge, or an A in a class. Those are goals, levels of achievement, and that is what the great USA is built on, levels of achievement.

I am only speaking from my own experience from the situation that I was in, it practically ruined my life when I followed the philosophy of just trusting int he process and not talking to the instructor and not getting the proper information.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't agree with all eastern philosophy. The philosophy about something taking twice as long when they work twice as hard is one of those philosophies that I don't particularly agree with, by that logic, if I did absolutely nothing I would get to my goal instantaneously. From my own experience in the real world the harder and more efficient you work the sooner you reach your goals and you get more out of the process. That is why the USA is such a great country that it is, our forefathers worked hard and America has a strong work ethic and your classic American philosophy is to set a goal and go for it. As an American and as a former Boy Scout I follow that philosophy. If you want to get a college degree it makes sense to know what classes you have to take, doesn't it?

Except that taking twice as long when you work twice as hard is not part of eastern philosophy. It is part of your personal fantasy about what eastern philosophy is. You can agree or disagree with eastern philosophy all you want, but you should at least understand it before commenting on it.

In Boyscouts, becoming an Eagle Scout, the top level, takes so many years and you have to get so many merit badges and do some other stuff. Now, lets say you work harder and get twice the number of merit badges in half the time as well as fulfilling the other requirements, you will become an Eagle Scout all the sooner which seems to be exactly the opposite of that philosophy about a student working twice as hard and taking twice as long to reach their goal as a result of that.

Furthermore, to become an Eagle Scout you do need to talk to your scoutmaster about it. One of the requirements to be an Eagle Scout is a community service project and for that you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it so that he can set you up with something. Furthermore to be an Eagle Scout does have a time limit, you have to do it before you turn 18 so you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it before its too late. Even if it didn't have a time limit you would still need to talk to your scoutmaster some time or another if you ever want to be an Eagle Scout so that he can set you up with a community service project, otherwise you will never be an Eagle Scout even if you had a million years. Sometimes, quite often, its necessary to talk to a teacher, sensei, instructor, just to get the proper information.

What is the reason for your preoccupation with the boy scouts? It comes up a lot in your posts.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to get a black belt, an Eagle badge, or an A in a class. Those are goals, levels of achievement, and that is what the great USA is built on, levels of achievement.

Except that those are not levels of achievement. They're symbols. They represent achievements, but are not the achievement themselves. A medal of honor by itself is worthless. It is the act of bravery for which it is awarded that makes it meaningful.

As for wanting merit badges, black belts, and an A in class, what you should really be wanting are the things that those items represent. A black belt represents training and a level of skill designated by the org/system. You either have it or you don't, regardless of the color of your gi accessory. An "A" is just ink on a paper. It is the knowledge and the time you spent learning it that that letter represents that are important, not the arbitrary character scrawled on a piece of paper.

I am only speaking from my own experience from the situation that I was in, it practically ruined my life when I followed the philosophy of just trusting int he process and not talking to the instructor and not getting the proper information.

How was your life practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout? Serious question, no sarcasm.

And if you opted not to speak to your scoutmaster about (presumably, this ruining of your life is tied up in scouting), what has that to do with eastern philosophy? Again, serious question, no sarcasm.

Incidentally, the idea of aloof superiors that nobody can approach is not an east/west phenomenon; it exists in all cultures, including western society. There are many proverbs, fables, and sayings in western philosophy that reinforce the authority of one's elders and which are designed to discourage you from questioning them.

 

[David Lader]

In regard to the story of the master telling his student that the journey to black belt will take twice as long, the message is not a literal one...

The lesson is intended to guide us in a general direction - a direction that looks like living in the moment. It is important to plan, communicate, and ask questions along the way, and, in our culture, which is increasingly noteworthy for its profound spiritual bankruptcy, finding a balance between "taking care of business" and trusting in God, Allah, the Creator, the Universe, or whatever you're into, seems to be a paramount concern.

"Trust in Allah and tether your camel" doesn't mean we should become Muslim... "Trust in God and tether your horse" works fine as well. Again, it's not about being literal...

Finally, and most importantly, as painful and uncomfortable as life can be, other people cannot "ruin" my life... I must be accountable and responsible and look at my part in each uncomfortable mess that life throws my way... I'm not suggesting that others can't hurt me and my loved ones in remarkable ways... I'm suggesting, as Eleanor Roosevelt put it, "No one can make me feel inferior without my consent..." Please, one last time - this is not to be taken 100% literally...there is a brilliant lesson here... Please do not miss the "gem" because of an argument that a drunk driver wiped out my entire family while I was watching... I must look for the gem, and try to keep an open mind... When a sign with an arrow says "Go this way to the town of Enlightenment," my job isn't to climb up the sign and hold on for dear life - it's simply an arrow to guide me in a general direction... When I clamber up the sign, I'm called a "fundamentalist..."

Be Well.

 

[David Lader]

I appreciate your comments...
Each seemed very wise and thoughtful.
My approach has been less direct, and I value both of our approaches to this man's comments and questions.
Perhaps it is time for me to move on, as I am starting to sense unnecessary tension, and I do not intend to argue.
Be Well.

 

[lklawson]

Except that those are not levels of achievement. They're symbols. They represent achievements, but are not the achievement themselves. A medal of honor by itself is worthless. It is the act of bravery for which it is awarded that makes it meaningful.

As for wanting merit badges, black belts, and an A in class, what you should really be wanting are the things that those items represent. A black belt represents training and a level of skill designated by the org/system. You either have it or you don't, regardless of the color of your gi accessory. An "A" is just ink on a paper. It is the knowledge and the time you spent learning it that that letter represents that are important, not the arbitrary character scrawled on a piece of paper.

Those symbols, accessories, and ink are generally accepted as evidence, proof if you will, of the skills they represent. Many jobs require a Certificate in order to apply for the job. Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer or Red Hat Certified Technician certificates are both accepted industry standards for the holder having a certain minimum level of skill and knowledge. If I present my RHCT to an employer then he knows I have, at the minimum, proven a certain minimum skill set by passing certain lab tests and he can reasonably assume that I have a base set of skills. The representation of the skill is considered proof of skill itself.

Similarly, a Boy Scout merit badge in Orienteering (or whatever) is considered to mean that the holder has a given minimum skill using a compass and a map. If some kid shows you his BSA Orienteering badge then you expect that he darn well knows at least how to align north on a map and go from point A to point B.

If some kid says the got a 'A' in Geometry but doesn't know the Pythagorean theorem then you're probably going to call "bull" because you know that it's a fundamental skill to geometry which you expect someone who made an 'A' to know.

I admit that it gets a lot more confusing when we slip into "Black Belt." You expect that symbol to be proof a certain minimum level of skill and knowledge. But because there's a gazillion different systems, styles, and organizations, exactly what minimum of what skill and what knowledge could be anything. At that point it is nearly meaningless unless you're familiar with the owner's specific style and branch.

But, hey, it sounds impressive anyway.

View attachment $6858.strip.gif

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk