Belt Rank Progress

[Daniel Sullivan]

And yet in every day life, how many times do we see the same thing with events that happen in the world? Someone gets shot by a cop, it's the cop fault because he's a macho hot head who shoots first and asks questions later. Couldn't possibly be that perhaps the guy had a knife and lunged at the cop after repeated commands to drop the knife . Of course, like I said, what's the big secret? I mean, while nobody is required to post info, if it was posted, perhaps things would be different.

Just because people do this everyday doesn't make it justified. And up to this point, the OP hasn't been dodging questions, so I'm not sure that there is a big secret.

I'm going to disagree a bit with this. Using myself as an example...I went from a Kenpo school, to a Kyokushin school. Both are martial arts, but the training is very different. My kyokushin dojo is far from a mcdojo, and yet when I joined 2yrs ago, I had to become accustomed to things. IMHO, a mcdojo tends to do things that the reasonable person would call suspect or questionable. Perhaps, so as to not sidetrack this thread, I should start a new thread on what people thinks make a mcdojo.

I was refering only to this thread, not to the bigger picture. People specifically said, "McDojo" because of the idea that students could apply to test without the instructor giving them permission.

 

[MJS]

Just because people do this everyday doesn't make it justified. And up to this point, the OP hasn't been dodging questions, so I'm not sure that there is a big secret.

You're right. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was. I was simply saying that people think like that all the time, regardless of it being right or wrong.

I was refering only to this thread, not to the bigger picture. People specifically said, "McDojo" because of the idea that students could apply to test without the instructor giving them permission.

I've never seen that practice done in any of the schools that I've either been a part of, nor any schools in which I've been to for seminars, camps, etc, and have talked with the inst about his dojo. I mean, think about it...it's a sad reality that many places want to keep people happy, at all costs. Would you rather have someone be told that they can apply for a test when they feel that they're ready, or....that they have to be given the ok by the inst, regardless of whether or not they, as the student, thinks they're ready?

In the end, just like with anything, it's the person that's under the spotlight, that'll have to live with their shady actions. I know who I train with, and thankfully, it's not like that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've never seen that practice done in any of the schools that I've either been a part of, nor any schools in which I've been to for seminars, camps, etc, and have talked with the inst about his dojo. I mean, think about it...it's a sad reality that many places want to keep people happy, at all costs. Would you rather have someone be told that they can apply for a test when they feel that they're ready, or....that they have to be given the ok by the inst, regardless of whether or not they, as the student, thinks they're ready?

In the end, just like with anything, it's the person that's under the spotlight, that'll have to live with their shady actions. I know who I train with, and thankfully, it's not like that.

Again, the question is the basis upon which they can apply. Is it a general, 'when you feel ready' or a 'when you have ______ time in grade, _______ hours of attendance in class during that time, know _________ kata, etc.'

Just to clarify, I'm not endorsing the idea; in most settings, I see it as impractical and not particularly beneficial. I was only saying that it doesn't automatically mean McDojo.

 

[MJS]

Again, the question is the basis upon which they can apply. Is it a general, 'when you feel ready' or a 'when you have ______ time in grade, _______ hours of attendance in class during that time, know _________ kata, etc.'

Just to clarify, I'm not endorsing the idea; in most settings, I see it as impractical and not particularly beneficial. I was only saying that it doesn't automatically mean McDojo.

I asked this question of the OP earlier, and I believe he answered, but I'll open it up for anyone else to answer. What makes the student more capable of deciding when he/she is ready to test, vs. the inst making that decision? Using the example you gave above, I'll give an example: Lets say its 3mos to go from white to yellow. They have to have at least 40hrs of training time in and they know the required kata. Even after all that, the student could still not be ready. Like I said, just because they claim they 'know it' doesn't mean that they actually do. Wouldn't it be better to have the inst look at the student, make corrections, etc, and have them wait, rather than the student going to test, looking like crap and failing? And yes, we all have those 'brain farts' and forget when we're under pressure. But IMO, I could justify a few minor mistakes, providing they put in 110% effort and the vast majority of the material looked sharp.

Using myself as an example: I just took a test on the 14th of Sept. While performing one of my katas, my teacher stopped me and asked me to tell him a particular move that I did. For the life of me, I could not recall the Japanese term for it, so after a short pause, I was honest and told him I couldn't remember. He told me to continue, of course stopping me again a few more times, asking about other moves, which I was able to tell him. I passed my test.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I asked this question of the OP earlier, and I believe he answered, but I'll open it up for anyone else to answer.

Maybe you did, and I may have missed it. I asked him on the last page earlier today.

What makes the student more capable of deciding when he/she is ready to test, vs. the inst making that decision? Using the example you gave above, I'll give an example: Lets say its 3mos to go from white to yellow. They have to have at least 40hrs of training time in and they know the required kata. Even after all that, the student could still not be ready. Like I said, just because they claim they 'know it' doesn't mean that they actually do. Wouldn't it be better to have the inst look at the student, make corrections, etc, and have them wait, rather than the student going to test, looking like crap and failing? And yes, we all have those 'brain farts' and forget when we're under pressure. But IMO, I could justify a few minor mistakes, providing they put in 110% effort and the vast majority of the material looked sharp.

Correct; they could be not ready and would fail the test. Just as with drivers license testing.

Using myself as an example: I just took a test on the 14th of Sept. While performing one of my katas, my teacher stopped me and asked me to tell him a particular move that I did. For the life of me, I could not recall the Japanese term for it, so after a short pause, I was honest and told him I couldn't remember. He told me to continue, of course stopping me again a few more times, asking about other moves, which I was able to tell him. I passed my test.

Presumably, the rest of your performance was satisfactory. You passed and moved on to the next grade.

Like I said, I don't endorse the idea, though I'm not philosophically opposed to it either. It really comes down to what you're used to and to what works in a particular school. Personally, I do not charge for testing and have considered dropping gradings prior to ikkyu because all the grading really is for is to determine whether they're proficient in their current unit.

 

[lklawson]

I asked this question of the OP earlier, and I believe he answered, but I'll open it up for anyone else to answer. What makes the student more capable of deciding when he/she is ready to test, vs. the inst making that decision?

Knowing what material is going to be tested and what the testing standards are. If the student has a clear understanding of what techniques, concepts, and knowledge he will be required to demonstrate and what level of competency in each will be required, he has a way to gauge if he has a reasonable chance of success. The biggest problem here is, of course, is the student capable of determining if his competency is up to snuff? The more experience he has in the system and/or examples to compare against, the better chance he has at making the proper determination. A person with no martial experience at all might not have enough experience to self-judge when he is ready for his first belt test. However, if he watches several others in their first belt test he may be able to compare his performance to those who passed and those who failed and make a fair guess where his skills lay. Or, if someone with experience in a similar art is testing. For instance if someone with a shodan in Shotokan Karate is training at a TKD school, chances are pretty good that he'll have the experience to judge when he is ready to take his first belt test, moving on from white belt.

Using myself as an example: I just took a test on the 14th of Sept. While performing one of my katas, my teacher stopped me and asked me to tell him a particular move that I did. For the life of me, I could not recall the Japanese term for it, so after a short pause, I was honest and told him I couldn't remember. He told me to continue, of course stopping me again a few more times, asking about other moves, which I was able to tell him. I passed my test.

My first dan test, in Aikido, I flubbed one of the techniques so badly that I fell. I got up and told my Uke to do it again. We nailed it the second time. I was certain that I'd just borked myself but I was passed anyway and I was told later that, while I still got a low score on that technique, the judges were impressed that I didn't let it blow my concentration and performed the rest of the test well. They considered it an intangible asset.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

Knowing what material is going to be tested and what the testing standards are. If the student has a clear understanding of what techniques, concepts, and knowledge he will be required to demonstrate and what level of competency in each will be required, he has a way to gauge if he has a reasonable chance of success. The biggest problem here is, of course, is the student capable of determining if his competency is up to snuff? The more experience he has in the system and/or examples to compare against, the better chance he has at making the proper determination. A person with no martial experience at all might not have enough experience to self-judge when he is ready for his first belt test. However, if he watches several others in their first belt test he may be able to compare his performance to those who passed and those who failed and make a fair guess where his skills lay. Or, if someone with experience in a similar art is testing. For instance if someone with a shodan in Shotokan Karate is training at a TKD school, chances are pretty good that he'll have the experience to judge when he is ready to take his first belt test, moving on from white belt.

Even if the student can judge when they are ready to grade or how well they did fairly well they still need to consult with the instructor. When I was 16 and I had just graded for my blue tip (5th Kup), I was so confident that I had passed that I came to class for the belt and tip presentation already wearing my tip. Although I did in fact pass my instructor told me if I did that again then I would be denied my promotion the next time. Even though I was sure that I had passed I still should have waited until I was officially presented with it by my instructor. Usually the ones who did not pass the grading stand out a bit.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was so confident that I had passed that I came to class for the belt and tip presentation already wearing my tip.

Side question; how did you get your tip if it hadn't been presented?

 

[lklawson]

Even if the student can judge when they are ready to grade or how well they did fairly well they still need to consult with the instructor. When I was 16 and I had just graded for my blue tip (5th Kup), I was so confident that I had passed that I came to class for the belt and tip presentation already wearing my tip. Although I did in fact pass my instructor told me if I did that again then I would be denied my promotion the next time. Even though I was sure that I had passed I still should have waited until I was officially presented with it by my instructor. Usually the ones who did not pass the grading stand out a bit.

I don't disagree.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

Side question; how did you get your tip if it hadn't been presented?

The tip is just a piece of electrical tape placed around the tip of the belt.I got it from the shop and placed it on myself.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I usually know that I'm ready for a grading when I feel confident at performing the syllabus that I know will be included within the test. Confidence only comes after competence for me - in most things I do, at least.

My instructor usually throws me a curve ball but I've handled it well enough in the past.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I would say any student past raw beginner needs to be more than the engine.

If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point? The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job. If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This wasn't an accusation. You've said that it is up to the student when they test, but you haven't said if there is some kind of objective basis (minimum number of study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, knowledge of specific kata, etc.) by which the students can gauge that they're actually ready.

There is a sheet you can get that lists all the requirements for each belt, so if you get the sheet you can check what you need for your next belt level. At higher belts especially, though, knowing the techniques on the sheets is not enough to pass, you've got to do them well.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Agreed!! It's amazing how concerned with people are with the belts, almost as if getting a new belt is something magical. LOL! It's amazing how many times the following questions are asked by newbies: "How long does it take to get to black belt?" and "How long does it take to advance between belts?" I mean really...there's nothing more important than that? People tend to think that just because they learn something new and can 'do it' in 5min, that they know it. No, doesn't work that way. I've taught someone a tech, walked away and came back 10min later, asked them to show me, and it was horrible...yet they want to learn something else.

My current teacher does promotions on what you said in your last paragraph...performance...in addition to how many times you show up to class. Come to class 4 times a month, never improve with your material....you'll be at the same rank for a loooooooong time. Show up 3+ times a week, always strive to get better, put forth the effort to perform 110%, you'll advance. Now, my teacher is old school and has told me many times that his teachers never handed out rank and neither does he. Even though he has quarterly belt tests, it doesn't mean that you're going to test each time. Obviously as you advance, the time between belts goes up.

Some people think its magical to get an A in a class. While it might not be magical, getting an A is certainly a form of achievement that can make you feel good about yourself. Some people are obsessed with grades, I once knew this guy who was upset about a 97 that he got on a test.

 

[MJS]

Some people think its magical to get an A in a class. While it might not be magical, getting an A is certainly a form of achievement that can make you feel good about yourself. Some people are obsessed with grades, I once knew this guy who was upset about a 97 that he got on a test.

I agree. My point was simply that it's the knowledge, among other things, not the belt, that makes you good.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point?

Because the student doesn't know that (s)he doesn't know. In other words, you need someone who knows what they're looking at to coach you and to help you improve. What you describe is practice. You know at that point what to practice and how to practice it. What you don't know are all of the little fine tuning mistakes that you cannot pick up without an instructor. I've been training in sword arts for many years and I still have an instructor. And yes, it really pays off.

The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job.

I agree.

If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.

Instances of weird dojo politics aside (and those circumstances do arise) I disagree with this. Not everyone becomes proficient at the same pace. I have a student who has been with me since 2009 and whom I will only promote to shodan next year if they can resolve three specific issues. These issues have been identified and he has made progress, but he simply is very slow in making progress. And he isn't a slacker. I have another student who started last September who has surpassed him, and did so some time ago. He simply is a natural. The rest of my students are somewhere in between.

We don't train for rank. And if any of my students are preoccupied with getting rank, then they are training for the wrong reason. I'm still happy to train them, but the desire for advancement is actually an inhibiting factor in advancement.

One of the issues that I have with belt systems is that students who are more prize oriented tend to fixate on the belts. It also sets up a hierarchy that isn't entriely accurate; any colored belt and even a newly minted shodan isn't really "senior" to anyone but a raw beginner anyway, so nobody should be fixating on it anyway.

 

[Cirdan]

If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point? The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job. If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.

Your teacher can only show you the path, you must still take the wheel or else you will drive right off the road the moment he is not holding your hand anymore. What you are describing is spoon feeding where the student repeats like a parror tather than making the art his own. It is actually quite common for people to quit because they don`t want to use their head that much.

 

[Cirdan]

Kinda like Defending a Doctoral Thesis?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kind of like a grading in a traditional martial arts school actually.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree. My point was simply that it's the knowledge, among other things, not the belt, that makes you good.

Well yes, the belt is a result of the knowledge and ability, not the other way around.

 

[MJS]

Well yes, the belt is a result of the knowledge and ability, not the other way around.

Sadly, some don't quite see it that way.