Belt Rank Progress

[PhotonGuy]

Except that taking twice as long when you work twice as hard is not part of eastern philosophy. It is part of your personal fantasy about what eastern philosophy is. You can agree or disagree with eastern philosophy all you want, but you should at least understand it before commenting on it.

That is just how I interpret it but if I'm wrong than I stand corrected.

What is the reason for your preoccupation with the boy scouts? It comes up a lot in your posts.

I like to talk about boy scouts and the Eagle Scout rank because it is a good example of something in life that has a set time limit. BSA is also is a good American organization and teaches American philosophy which I live by, being an American and all.

Except that those are not levels of achievement. They're symbols. They represent achievements, but are not the achievement themselves. A medal of honor by itself is worthless. It is the act of bravery for which it is awarded that makes it meaningful.

As for wanting merit badges, black belts, and an A in class, what you should really be wanting are the things that those items represent. A black belt represents training and a level of skill designated by the org/system. You either have it or you don't, regardless of the color of your gi accessory. An "A" is just ink on a paper. It is the knowledge and the time you spent learning it that that letter represents that are important, not the arbitrary character scrawled on a piece of paper.

True. As I said before, anybody can buy a black belt from a store for about $5-$10. The knowledge, time, and ability is what really matters but I see nothing wrong with also wanting the symbols that result in the knowledge, time, and ability, be it an A, a black belt, an eagle badge, or whatever else. And to get it, you need to know what your teacher's, sensei's, instructor's standards are and that often involves talking with said person.

How was your life practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout? Serious question, no sarcasm.

My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit. The reason I keep talking about the rank of Eagle Scout is because, as I said before in this post, being an Eagle Scout is a good example of something that has a set time limit. But even if you have a goal that doesn't have a time limit that is put in place by an organization such as BSA (Boyscouts of America) the goal might have a time limit that you have for yourself.

And if you opted not to speak to your scoutmaster about (presumably, this ruining of your life is tied up in scouting), what has that to do with eastern philosophy? Again, serious question, no sarcasm.

See above. It was not my scoutmaster that I opted not to speak to it was my sensei that I opted not to speak to, a big mistake on my part. Sometimes its hard to talk to authority figures.

Incidentally, the idea of aloof superiors that nobody can approach is not an east/west phenomenon; it exists in all cultures, including western society. There are many proverbs, fables, and sayings in western philosophy that reinforce the authority of one's elders and which are designed to discourage you from questioning them.

Yet in the USA students are encouraged to talk to teachers if they want to do well in a class. Sports players are encouraged to talk to their coaches if they need help in their sport. If I was a teacher, be it an academic teacher, a sports coach, or for that matter a martial arts instructor I wouldn't mind students questioning me about stuff they needed help with or if they wanted to know what my standards are, as a matter of fact I would encourage it. As I said in an earlier post in this board, you've got a mouth you've got to use it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I appreciate your comments...
Each seemed very wise and thoughtful.
My approach has been less direct, and I value both of our approaches to this man's comments and questions.
Perhaps it is time for me to move on, as I am starting to sense unnecessary tension, and I do not intend to argue.
Be Well.

There is no tension. Debate is good. I often like it when people disagree with and challenge my approaches. If we always agreed with everything we would get nowhere and it would be boring. Please stay. No hard feelings.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If some kid says the got a 'A' in Geometry but doesn't know the Pythagorean theorem then you're probably going to call "bull" because you know that it's a fundamental skill to geometry which you expect someone who made an 'A' to know.

The Pythagorean theorem has to do with right triangles. It states that A squared plus B squared equals C squared. So the scarecrow was wrong after he got his diploma from the Wizard of Oz when he started talking about isosceles triangles, perhaps he didn't have a brain after all. I just had to say that, I couldn't resist.

I admit that it gets a lot more confusing when we slip into "Black Belt." You expect that symbol to be proof a certain minimum level of skill and knowledge. But because there's a gazillion different systems, styles, and organizations, exactly what minimum of what skill and what knowledge could be anything. At that point it is nearly meaningless unless you're familiar with the owner's specific style and branch.

Yes and you also have to take into account the gazillion different standards that each sensei or instructor has. The level of standards can be as different as night and day.

 

[CK1980]

I think, probably most everywhere, when you take your Black Belt test- it is more of a measure of learned ability and proficiency. This is probably where the original poster is getting the notion that it is a large step.

I know that when I was actively studying, the main school I went to- you pre-tested for 3 days before your test. That was for EVERY belt though. The instructor would let you know that you were going to be testing on [date] and that the next 3 class periods were mandatory. "Miss one and you don't test". The 3 pre-test dates were your evaluation on material (past and present). This included forms, demonstrations, sparring, and tradition. On test night, you had to demonstrate your current form (flawlessly), demonstrate physical conditioning, and fight for a 3 minute round with specific striking goals that had to be met. At certain levels, you went from 1 round to 2 rounds and up to black belt being 5 rounds. As a final note on that, it was always the head instructor who decided if you were going to test. If you had the notion to ask him if you were testing, the answer was "no". His reason, if you have to ask, then you aren't ready. Again, that was with EVERY belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit.

Okay. How was your life practically ruined by not making a martial arts goal?

 

[David Lader]

Good question...

 

[geezer]

My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit...

Your life practically ruined? That's too bad. Sounds like you learned a much needed lesson in handling life's disappointments. After all regardless of how hard you work at something, or how much you may feel you've earned it, you will sometimes fail to acheive your objective. Everybody does. Learning to lose is just as important as striving to win.

Heck back around 1970 I set a more limited goal of wanting to make "Life-Scout", or at least "Star" --the equivalent of "officer ranks" as we were told by our highly militaristic local scout troop leader. We spent a lot of time marching and stuff. It was during the Vietnam War, after all.

Well my school didn't have a scout troop, so I joined the troop located in a neighboring district. ...our rivals, if you will. And I found out that no matter how many "merit badges" you earned, you had to "show leadership qualities" by being elected "patrol leader" to advance beyond "First Class". Small for my age, nerdy, and coming from outside the local group, I lost three elections in a row. There was no way for me to advance. So I dealt with it, and dropped out.

I set a different objective, and began learning to fly. I tested for and earned my pilots license by the age of 18. I wasn't a quitter for leaving the scouts. Nor was the scouts a "bad" organization. I had a lot of fun with them. It's just that things don't always work out the way you plan them. Life requires that you make choices.

Yet in the USA students are encouraged to talk to teachers if they want to do well in a class. Sports players are encouraged to talk to their coaches if they need help in their sport. If I was a teacher, be it an academic teacher, a sports coach, or for that matter a martial arts instructor I wouldn't mind students questioning me about stuff they needed help with or if they wanted to know what my standards are, as a matter of fact I would encourage it. As I said in an earlier post in this board, you've got a mouth you've got to use it.

I can agree with this. Ever thought about a career that involves teaching?

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think, probably most everywhere, when you take your Black Belt test- it is more of a measure of learned ability and proficiency. This is probably where the original poster is getting the notion that it is a large step.

I know that when I was actively studying, the main school I went to- you pre-tested for 3 days before your test. That was for EVERY belt though. The instructor would let you know that you were going to be testing on [date] and that the next 3 class periods were mandatory. "Miss one and you don't test". The 3 pre-test dates were your evaluation on material (past and present). This included forms, demonstrations, sparring, and tradition. On test night, you had to demonstrate your current form (flawlessly), demonstrate physical conditioning, and fight for a 3 minute round with specific striking goals that had to be met. At certain levels, you went from 1 round to 2 rounds and up to black belt being 5 rounds. As a final note on that, it was always the head instructor who decided if you were going to test. If you had the notion to ask him if you were testing, the answer was "no". His reason, if you have to ask, then you aren't ready. Again, that was with EVERY belt.

Rather than asking your instructor if you were testing, the sensible thing to do would be to ask the instructor what you need to do to qualify for testing, what you need to do to qualify for the next belt, or what you need to do to be ready to test the next time a test is scheduled. This would include asking him about what you need to do to qualify for the black belt if that happens to be the next belt. He is the instructor and with him being the instructor and all he sets the standards, but it makes sense to ask what you need to do to meet his standards, doesn't it?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Okay. How was your life practically ruined by not making a martial arts goal?

I could tell you my story but it might be a bit long. I would like to tell it but most people probably don't want to hear stories about my life, but I would like to post it if you want to sit through it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Your life practically ruined? That's too bad. Sounds like you learned a much needed lesson in handling life's disappointments. After all regardless of how hard you work at something, or how much you may feel you've earned it, you will sometimes fail to acheive your objective. Everybody does. Learning to lose is just as important as striving to win.

Heck back around 1970 I set a more limited goal of wanting to make "Life-Scout", or at least "Star" --the equivalent of "officer ranks" as we were told by our highly militaristic local scout troop leader. We spent a lot of time marching and stuff. It was during the Vietnam War, after all.

Well my school didn't have a scout troop, so I joined the troop located in a neighboring district. ...our rivals, if you will. And I found out that no matter how many "merit badges" you earned, you had to "show leadership qualities" by being elected "patrol leader" to advance beyond "First Class". Small for my age, nerdy, and coming from outside the local group, I lost three elections in a row. There was no way for me to advance. So I dealt with it, and dropped out.

I set a different objective, and began learning to fly. I tested for and earned my pilots license by the age of 18. I wasn't a quitter for leaving the scouts. Nor was the scouts a "bad" organization. I had a lot of fun with them. It's just that things don't always work out the way you plan them. Life requires that you make choices.

Failure and losing is one thing, we are all going to experience some failure in life even the best of us. Chronic failure is something else. To fail at something time and time again can be a big problem, especially if there is a time limit you need to meet to reach your goal. Even losing three elections in a row is not all that bad and most of us will experience something like that, somehow or another, but to lose maybe ten elections in a row or to keep losing elections when your 18th birthday draws near, that can cause big problems. However, and this is just my observation, you sound like being an eagle scout was perhaps not a major desire in your life and you did find this other great passion, flying. As for me, I was 14 and a Star Scout when I stopped being a boyscout. The reason I stopped was because number one, a family situation and number two, the situation with my troop, the troop was deteriorating and much of it had to do with our scoutmaster thinking about resigning and there was nobody to take his place. As it was, I didn't have a burning desire to be an Eagle Scout. For me to make Eagle Scout it would've been nice but it wasn't something that I was super obsessed with. If I did have a burning desire to make Eagle Scout I would've worked through my family situation and joined another troop and done it, but it wasn't something that was super important to me. You sound much the same way and you found something else to do and Im sure you had many positive experiences in boyscouts as did I. I just had my mind set on other stuff, Martial arts, for instance, is something that is super important to me.

I can agree with this. Ever thought about a career that involves teaching?

Yes, I want to be a martial arts instructor someday. I want to make a living in the martial arts and one of the best ways to do that is by teaching.

 

[David Lader]

I'm interested...Please share...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I could tell you my story but it might be a bit long. I would like to tell it but most people probably don't want to hear stories about my life, but I would like to post it if you want to sit through it.

We're all telling stories about our life to a certain extent. I am trying to understand your point of view. You say that not meeting a marital arts goal practically ruined your life. This clearly drives your perspective on testing, so I would like to understand it.

 

[David Lader]

...very thoughtful way to express your interest in this man's story...
Thanks for your respectful approach.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I could tell you my story but it might be a bit long. I would like to tell it but most people probably don't want to hear stories about my life, but I would like to post it if you want to sit through it.

If someone doesn't want to read your story, they can scroll right on past, or put you on ignore. Post away.

 

[lklawson]

And I found out that no matter how many "merit badges" you earned, you had to "show leadership qualities" by being elected "patrol leader" to advance beyond "First Class".

You were mislead, possibly accidentally, possibly deliberately. The Scouting requirement has always been to show "leadership qualities" but attaining Patrol Leader has never been a requirement. It's possible that you Scoutmaster didn't know the difference.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Balrog]

My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit.

The concept of SMART goals is that any goal should be: Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Time-based. Getting it done within a certain timeframe is a key ingredient.

However, there is also the concept of "monitor and adjust". Suppose I set a goal to start martial arts training and achieve the rank of 1st Degree Black Belt by no later than 31 December 2017 (just to pick a date). That is definitely specific (1st Degree); it's definitely attainable (thousands of others have done it); it's measureable (progress through the colored belt ranks); it's relevant (it will improve me mentally and physically); and it's time-based (target date).

But suppose that life intervenes in my plan. I get hung up on a colored belt rank, just can't seem to get the hang of the material. Instead of spending four months at the rank as planned, let's say I spend eight months. As a result, I will miss the December 2017 testing. What do I do? Is it the end of the world? No, I simply adjust my target date to the next testing and continue onward.

In real life, I'm a perfect example of this. I promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt in October of 2012. But I tested the first time in June of 2010. That was my target date. I no-changed. My next chance to test was four months later. I no-changed then as well. It took me seven attempts before I finally got my act together and made it. But each time, I adjusted the target date and continued working the goal to improve what I needed to until I was successful. And now I have a new SMART goal: 7th Degree, July 2018.

My life wasn't ruined by not hitting my goal. I'm not sure I understand why you say your life practically was. What am I missing?

 

[MJS]

My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit. The reason I keep talking about the rank of Eagle Scout is because, as I said before in this post, being an Eagle Scout is a good example of something that has a set time limit. But even if you have a goal that doesn't have a time limit that is put in place by an organization such as BSA (Boyscouts of America) the goal might have a time limit that you have for yourself.

Umm...practically ruined? Seriously?? Sorry, but that's just crazy if you ask me. What's the rush or worry with a time limit? Whenever it happens, it happens. Who cares if its 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 years??

See above. It was not my scoutmaster that I opted not to speak to it was my sensei that I opted not to speak to, a big mistake on my part. Sometimes its hard to talk to authority figures.

Yet in the USA students are encouraged to talk to teachers if they want to do well in a class. Sports players are encouraged to talk to their coaches if they need help in their sport. If I was a teacher, be it an academic teacher, a sports coach, or for that matter a martial arts instructor I wouldn't mind students questioning me about stuff they needed help with or if they wanted to know what my standards are, as a matter of fact I would encourage it. As I said in an earlier post in this board, you've got a mouth you've got to use it.

Sure, it can be a bit intimidating, but there's no need to worry about talking to an authority figure. All of my teachers, with the exception of my current one, have been American. My current teacher is Japanese. Many times, I've talked to him after a class, asking for advice, or asking how I can improve on something, etc. Given the fact that there is a language barrier, as well as a huge difference in tradition, I choose my wording carefully, A) so as to not offend him, and B) so I can ensure that the way I'm wording my question, is understood.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Umm...practically ruined? Seriously?? Sorry, but that's just crazy if you ask me. What's the rush or worry with a time limit? Whenever it happens, it happens. Who cares if its 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 years??

Or perhaps there is more to it than a simple missing of the date. Which is why I asked him to share his story. Which he will, if he's comfortable, and will not if he is not.

It is easy for me to say that something is crazy from across the internet, but unless I know the realities of what another person went through, how much do I really know?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Or perhaps there is more to it than a simple missing of the date. Which is why I asked him to share his story. Which he will, if he's comfortable, and will not if he is not.

It is easy for me to say that something is crazy from across the internet, but unless I know the realities of what another person went through, how much do I really know?

I have to admit I'm with MJS on this. I'd like to hear the story in order to understand where he's coming from. In part because I have trouble imagining how missing a belt rank goal could be so devastating. Losing your job, your home, your family... these are devastating. Not changing your belt color? I can see how that would ruin the after-test celebratory dinner. That's why I'd like to hear the story.

 

[MJS]

I have to admit I'm with MJS on this. I'd like to hear the story in order to understand where he's coming from. In part because I have trouble imagining how missing a belt rank goal could be so devastating. Losing your job, your home, your family... these are devastating. Not changing your belt color? I can see how that would ruin the after-test celebratory dinner. That's why I'd like to hear the story.

Yup, that pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make.