Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Hanzou]

1. Liar.
2. What is you point in the constant and repeated attacks on everything that isn't MMA?

Still waiting for an answer.

If I say that Kung Fu is declining and provide articles to back up that statement, you view that as an attack?

How sad.

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I'm merely reporting what other people have found. I don't know why you feel the need to create excuses why Kung Fu is declining. Everyone understands that the cultural revolution had an impact on Chinese martial arts, and those effects have rippled down to the present day. However, we also can't discount the fact that Kung Fu experienced a pretty healthy resurgence in the 80s and 90s that quickly dissipated once MMA came on the scene.

kuniggety bought up an old film showing a tournament between Kung Fu fighters and MT fighters where the KF guys got eaten alive. I saw a similar film, but it involved Kyokushin Karate guys versus a set of KF fighters from China. The film was called Fighting Black Kings and just like the film kuniggety saw, the KF fighters got eaten alive. If I find the video I'll be sure to post it. It's quite amusing.

Anyway, I truly feel that if we start seeing some authentic Kung Fu stylists enter MMA competition and do well (and actually doing Kung Fu instead of doing something you can't discern from standard kickboxing) you'd see that trend reverse itself. Unfortunately, I think we both know that that's never going to happen for an entire host of reasons.

 

[Flying Crane]

If I say that Kung Fu is declining and provide articles to back up that statement, you view that as an attack?

How sad.

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I'm merely reporting what other people have found. I don't know why you feel the need to create excuses why Kung Fu is declining. Everyone understands that the cultural revolution had an impact on Chinese martial arts, and those effects have rippled down to the present day. However, we also can't discount the fact that Kung Fu experienced a pretty healthy resurgence in the 80s and 90s that quickly dissipated once MMA came on the scene.

kuniggety bought up an old film showing a tournament between Kung Fu fighters and MT fighters where the KF guys got eaten alive. I saw a similar film, but it involved Kyokushin Karate guys versus a set of KF fighters from China. The film was called Fighting Black Kings and just like the film kuniggety saw, the KF fighters got eaten alive. If I find the video I'll be sure to post it. It's quite amusing.

Anyway, I truly feel that if we start seeing some authentic Kung Fu stylists enter MMA competition and do well (and actually doing Kung Fu instead of doing something you can't discern from standard kickboxing) you'd see that trend reverse itself. Unfortunately, I think we both know that that's never going to happen for an entire host of reasons.

Every day you come here and post stuff that is derisive of everything that isn't MMA connected.

What are you hoping to accomplish?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where did I say that your style is worthless? I'm simply implying that I understand why a potential martial arts practitioner would choose MMA or a MMA style over White Crane or Jow Ga even in China or Japan.

Take it from Valerie Ng, a 20-year-old college student in Hong Kong, who says she prefers Thai boxing because it is “attractive and charming” and does not take as long to master. She noted that kung fu masters often do not have defined muscles and that some of them look, well, a little chubby.

“You can see how fierce Thai boxing is from watching professional matches,” she said. “But I rarely see such competition for kung fu, which makes me wonder whether those kung fu masters really are good at fighting or they just claim to be,” she said.

That really says it all doesn't it?

BTW, that came from this article that you supposedly read: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/world/asia/hong-kong-kung-fu.html?_r=0

That's unfortunate, but not uncommon. Picking a style because the participants tend to be strong and fierce, in general, would be a good way to end up in a style that requires strength and ferocity to be effective. I'm not saying Thai boxing requires that, but her experience shows no evidence it can be done without that combination.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I say that Kung Fu is declining and provide articles to back up that statement, you view that as an attack?

How sad.

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I'm merely reporting what other people have found. I don't know why you feel the need to create excuses why Kung Fu is declining. Everyone understands that the cultural revolution had an impact on Chinese martial arts, and those effects have rippled down to the present day. However, we also can't discount the fact that Kung Fu experienced a pretty healthy resurgence in the 80s and 90s that quickly dissipated once MMA came on the scene.

kuniggety bought up an old film showing a tournament between Kung Fu fighters and MT fighters where the KF guys got eaten alive. I saw a similar film, but it involved Kyokushin Karate guys versus a set of KF fighters from China. The film was called Fighting Black Kings and just like the film kuniggety saw, the KF fighters got eaten alive. If I find the video I'll be sure to post it. It's quite amusing.

Anyway, I truly feel that if we start seeing some authentic Kung Fu stylists enter MMA competition and do well (and actually doing Kung Fu instead of doing something you can't discern from standard kickboxing) you'd see that trend reverse itself. Unfortunately, I think we both know that that's never going to happen for an entire host of reasons.

Actually, a resurgence would likely be driven by a decline of MMA popularity and some movie or event that makes Kung Fu look cool. At this point, most folks outside MA don't look at individual styles (unless some purist were to come in, and that's unlikely to work for any style). They associate MMA with MT, BJJ, western boxing, and the like. That wouldn't be changed by one fighter unless he was able to pull of what the Gracies did - which worked in part because they were training for their opponents, and surprised them.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If I say that Kung Fu is declining and provide articles to back up that statement, you view that as an attack?

You know, I can recall seeing articles pretty much constantly since the 1970's (which is as far back as I've been reading MA-related articles) saying that [insert current popular system] is awesome and everything else is declining.
And yet, 40+ years later, all those arts are still doing just fine.

 

[Hanzou]

That's unfortunate, but not uncommon. Picking a style because the participants tend to be strong and fierce, in general, would be a good way to end up in a style that requires strength and ferocity to be effective. I'm not saying Thai boxing requires that, but her experience shows no evidence it can be done without that combination.

Well we should look at it from her perspective, if your goal is to be able to fight or defend yourself, which way would you go? Would you join a system where people actually look like fighters and actually fight, or would you join a system where people look like they can't fight their way out of a paper bag? Slap on the little tidbit that it takes longer in the latter system to end up with (seemingly) worse results, and the choice seems pretty obvious.

We also shouldn't forget that Muay Thai boxers have a pretty long reputation for fighting prowess in Asia.

Actually, a resurgence would likely be driven by a decline of MMA popularity and some movie or event that makes Kung Fu look cool. At this point, most folks outside MA don't look at individual styles (unless some purist were to come in, and that's unlikely to work for any style). They associate MMA with MT, BJJ, western boxing, and the like. That wouldn't be changed by one fighter unless he was able to pull of what the Gracies did - which worked in part because they were training for their opponents, and surprised them.

I disagree. Hector Lombard and Ronda Rousey's success led to a resurgence in Judo's popularity among the MMA crowd.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You know, I can recall seeing articles pretty much constantly since the 1970's (which is as far back as I've been reading MA-related articles) saying that [insert current popular system] is awesome and everything else is declining.
And yet, 40+ years later, all those arts are still doing just fine.

Jow Ga Kung Fu is a family style kung fu. Small name with a couple of articles here in there. 40 years ago, the only place to learn Jow Ga in the U.S. was in Washtington D.C.
10 years later it shows up in New York, California, and Virginia. 10 years later it shows up in Sydney and then Melbourne Australia. It took 40 years since it's arrival in the U.S. for it to show up in Georgia. These aren't the signs of a system that's declining.

In terms of it declining in China. To be honest China has a really bad habit of destroying and selling national treasures. The most recent example being that China cemented the Great Wall of China.

China use to sell historical items for cheap and they tried to crush their own martial arts systems. As traditional martial arts grows overseas, soon, it will be China that will be learning their martial arts from foreigners.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I want to learn how to fight then I go where they train to fight. I wouldn't care how they look. I care about how they train.

The fitness gyms are full of fit people that look like they can fight but have no fighting skills nor do they train to fight.

 

[Hanzou]

If I want to learn how to fight then I go where they train to fight. I wouldn't care how they look. I care about how they train.

If you wanted to learn how to fight, wouldn't you be better off at a MMA, Wrestling, Boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, etc. school? In those places you have an ingrained sparring portion, zero katas (for the most part), and a very competitive (i.e. fighting) culture.

That simply isn't the case in many classical martial arts which spend an inordinate amount of time on forms, exaggerated stances, and other exotic techniques that generally get tossed aside when the poop hits the fan.

Ten years in Bjj you'll more than likely have a black belt, and be very capable of fighting. Ten years in some TMAs and you're still learning how to kick and punch properly.

 

[Phobius]

If you wanted to learn how to fight, wouldn't you be better off at a MMA, Wrestling, Boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, etc. school? In those places you have an ingrained sparring portion, zero katas (for the most part), and a very competitive (i.e. fighting) culture.

That simply isn't the case in many classical martial arts which spend an inordinate amount of time on forms, exaggerated stances, and other exotic techniques that generally get tossed aside when the poop hits the fan.

Ten years in Bjj you'll more than likely have a black belt, and be very capable of fighting. Ten years in some TMAs and you're still learning how to kick and punch properly.

You express opinion and not facts.

It is very important to understand that an opinion has no value in describing the world. It only describes you.

Now if you ask anyone, including this gal, why they train Muay Thai the answer will not be about how TMA was more interesting.

If you interview someone doing TMA their answer will be about their art being great.

It is all opinion.

Now Hong Kong is not evidence, no sport that does not have the aspect of money involved in some way will be unable to keep business running. Space costs too much. Not because of lack of students but because you cannot fit more students Into that space.

 

[Tez3]

It is very important to understand that an opinion has no value in describing the world. It only describes you.

That is one of the best things I've read for a long time. Thank you.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The problem is that you got these TMA instructors forcing people to do horse stances over and over again for months while more modern styles get right to the good stuff.

Which all comes down to students not being dedicated enough to put in the hard work to learn a TMA properly and want to take what they perceive as the easy way out.

 

[RTKDCMB]

UFC® Martial Arts Styles - Fighters Train in Multiple Disciplines

That could be why they call it Mixed Martial Arts.

 

[drop bear]

That's unfortunate, but not uncommon. Picking a style because the participants tend to be strong and fierce, in general, would be a good way to end up in a style that requires strength and ferocity to be effective. I'm not saying Thai boxing requires that, but her experience shows no evidence it can be done without that combination.

Sort of. It depends on the training. Thai requires you to be physical because the training is resisted. This does not mean that a less resisted style is better developed for less physical people.

You just look better in training

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why do you think that decline took place? Could it have been a certain fighting event in the mid-90s, and the rise of MMA?

There are multitudes of reasons for the decline in TMA students and most of them have nothing to do with MMA or the UFC.

 

[drop bear]

If you wanted to learn how to fight, wouldn't you be better off at a MMA, Wrestling, Boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, etc. school? In those places you have an ingrained sparring portion, zero katas (for the most part), and a very competitive (i.e. fighting) culture.

That simply isn't the case in many classical martial arts which spend an inordinate amount of time on forms, exaggerated stances, and other exotic techniques that generally get tossed aside when the poop hits the fan.

Ten years in Bjj you'll more than likely have a black belt, and be very capable of fighting. Ten years in some TMAs and you're still learning how to kick and punch properly.

See i can't agree with that and stay consistent. If the martial artist come up to some sort of competant standard. That validates the training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well we should look at it from her perspective, if your goal is to be able to fight or defend yourself, which way would you go? Would you join a system where people actually look like fighters and actually fight, or would you join a system where people look like they can't fight their way out of a paper bag? Slap on the little tidbit that it takes longer in the latter system to end up with (seemingly) worse results, and the choice seems pretty obvious.

We also shouldn't forget that Muay Thai boxers have a pretty long reputation for fighting prowess in Asia.

If I'm a guy who is reasonably fit and thinks he can look like those fighters, I might choose that. If I'm a small person (and most women are smaller), I would be better served looking for an art where it doesn't seem to require being muscular. I don't know enough of the mechanics of MT to judge the art on whether it only works well with strength or not, but if I had to make the choice on that evidence, alone, I'd have to say it likely does, since that's a feature common to all the MT fighters I've ever seen. Not necessarily a valid conclusion, but I hope it makes the point.

And yes, MT boxers do have a good reputation for effectiveness, and that would be a better reason for choosing, rather than choosing because they "look like" fighters. Heck, if someone showed me a kinda fat guy holding his own (even if he loses decisively in the end) to a fit and muscular MT guy, I'd be impressed by the skill that took and would want to take a look at what he studied that got him there.

I disagree. Hector Lombard and Ronda Rousey's success led to a resurgence in Judo's popularity among the MMA crowd.

That's a good point, and you may be right, but Judo was an early part of MMA. There were many competitors whose primary art was Judo, so folks have an easier link there. I doubt a single fighter being competitive would shift people's thinking to an art they don't already associate with MMA. Of course, some overwhelming success will always have sway, but I doubt there's much of that left to be found from a single-art person unless we simply find one analogous to Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you wanted to learn how to fight, wouldn't you be better off at a MMA, Wrestling, Boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, etc. school? In those places you have an ingrained sparring portion, zero katas (for the most part), and a very competitive (i.e. fighting) culture.

That simply isn't the case in many classical martial arts which spend an inordinate amount of time on forms, exaggerated stances, and other exotic techniques that generally get tossed aside when the poop hits the fan.

Ten years in Bjj you'll more than likely have a black belt, and be very capable of fighting. Ten years in some TMAs and you're still learning how to kick and punch properly.

That's an exaggeration of how long things take in TMA's. I've never met anyone with 10 years of experience under a decent instructor who couldn't do what they'd been trained to do. If they were trained for fighting, they could do that with some competency.

Now, I will agree that BJJ appears to produce good results quicker than most TMA, which is odd to me because their teaching techniques don't differ that much from TMA's. The TMA schools I've been in (an admittedly small sample) didn't spend all that much time on forms. The forms were one way they ingrained responses ("muscle memory"), like the shrimping drill does (and like that shrimping drill, forms can also help with fitness). The forms showed up, and were used to a greater or lesser extent in various schools, but I can honestly say that in all the times I've visited schools, the only time I've seen a class doing forms is in my primary art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sort of. It depends on the training. Thai requires you to be physical because the training is resisted. This does not mean that a less resisted style is better developed for less physical people.

You just look better in training

Your definition of "resisted" seems to require fighting strength with strength. I rarely resort to that, even in resisted training. I'm reasonably fit, and reasonably strong, but my training is to find where I don't have to do that. In my experience, it's the resistance that requires the strength, not the technique. As I've said before, this is one of those areas where your "resisted training" is actually not as realistic for self-defense as you seem to think it is. It's an effective tool, and one I like to use, but it's not an accurate representation of the resistance that's likely to happen in a self-defense situation.

 

[Phobius]

That's an exaggeration of how long things take in TMA's. I've never met anyone with 10 years of experience under a decent instructor who couldn't do what they'd been trained to do. If they were trained for fighting, they could do that with some competency.

Now, I will agree that BJJ appears to produce good results quicker than most TMA, which is odd to me because their teaching techniques don't differ that much from TMA's. The TMA schools I've been in (an admittedly small sample) didn't spend all that much time on forms. The forms were one way they ingrained responses ("muscle memory"), like the shrimping drill does (and like that shrimping drill, forms can also help with fitness). The forms showed up, and were used to a greater or lesser extent in various schools, but I can honestly say that in all the times I've visited schools, the only time I've seen a class doing forms is in my primary art.

BJJ does one thing I fear many clubs stopped doing or never did in the first place.

They do rolling/sparring from day one or near enough. It is something they have the possibility of doing.

Some clubs around where I live consider sparring to be competition and to be avoided until you are experienced and trained enough. Now in BJJ you learn from that rolling, realizing that there are always weaknesses in your movements even when you think you got it down well enough. No mystery, just teaching you that learning a technique means more than just doing it over and over in a drill.