ATA Forms Protected?

[dancingalone]

Calling H.U. Lee 'Mr' Lee seems somewhat of an affront to him as he was granted 10th dan post-humously by a panel of the worlds top TKD masters.

Hi, Mr. Leverich. You know, 'Mister' used to be a title given in respect to someone not of the peerage. It's a perfectly acceptable and respectful way to refer to someone, and in my opinion in these days when everyone is a 'master' or a 'grandmaster', I'd just as soon go back to basics. In any case, I don't practice Mr. Lee's system, so I honestly don't see the need to call him anything else. I realize he's an important figure in your corner of the martial arts world, and I'm sure you give him every honor.

Sincerely,

DA

 

[miguksaram]

A gentleman I know on TKDspace, whom I do respect, is an ATA instructor and has stated that the forms are indeed copyrighted. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him, that they use, "the original chang hon forms." I also know that ATA competitions are ATA only. Not sure if ATA practitioners are forbidden from entering non ATA competition, but ATA competitions are not open to non members.

I know of no lawsuits involving the ATA forms. Chances are that there aren't any; most people opening a school do so within whatever organization they're already associated with and use the forms appropriate to it rather than trying to raid another organization's forms.

The sort of internalizing of tournaments and forms and such has both potential benefits and drawbacks.

Daniel

A couple of items. First if they do the oringinal Chong-ahn forms, which I will have to do more research on, but I doubt it, then they can not copyright the form since they are not the original. Well I guess they can copyright it but it will not hold up in court since the forms predate their organization. Secondly, an ATA student can compete in non-ATA competitions, though it is not done often. ATA philosophy is to keep the money in the family.

 

[IcemanSK]

I've heard of schools that don't teach forms to the 'basic' members, but it seems like crap to me as well.

As far as copyright, the forms are copyright as a combination of movements (similar to a dance routine yes). Terry (you'd asked why not kicks and punches) it's like copyrighting note A and C vs copyrighting the progression that is say 'Fortunate Son'.

I started doing the Chang Hon forms and honestly, the Songahm forms are a better progression of difficulty, but that's my view after doing both. Understand that the forms were created by people who'd done the CH forms for years upon years, the ATA at that time had been the NBG of the ITF in the US. When GM Kang left and GM Lee (at that time simply referred to as Master Lee) became KJN, things did change, but then Choi had approached Lee, not Kang even though Kang was KJN. Oh to be a fly on the wall.

Terry - "But with the ATA iit ia all about money.". Depends on the person, but that's the same with any given organization. If that was the case, I'd be rich, and teaching in a McDojahng making my bazillions.

Brandon - The closed tournaments ensure trained judging, also accountability from competitors as their actions are directly tied to their instructor and school, all accountable to the region and org. Rules are written, hard, steadfast, and all judges and competitors are up to date on them as well as accountable. But yeah, I've always loved the usual 'open' tournaments as well for the diversity and flavor. I have found that respect is tenfold at an ATA tournament vs any given open tournament. The variety of talent is sometimes stagnant, although travellers help that at times.

Twin fist - 25% of profit. As I don't run a school, I'm not privy to that. Thousands of dollars for a 'teachers license' though, I know to be untrue as my certification was a few hundred. I've been in the ATA since 1985, my latest certification was 2005.

Terry - Ouch if all the ATA schools in your area are like that. On forms being on Youtube etc, perhaps a performance is considered different than the works? Honestly, no idea.

dancingalone - Rotational curriculum/block teaching, no arguments here. Calling H.U. Lee 'Mr' Lee seems somewhat of an affront to him as he was granted 10th dan post-humously by a panel of the worlds top TKD masters.

I've seen a lot of things change in the last 23+ years. The forms (from CH to Songahm), sparring gear (like needing anything other than a cup/mouthpiece), focus (from 18-30 males to 'family') etc etc. But, I've seen those same changes throughout the martial arts in the States.

If you need to know more about 'me', I'd say ask Wade if he's still around (as he'd fought in the same rings), maybe Iceman as he and I've shared many a discussion on the various TKD forums.

I guess the only thing that made me respond was the 'ATA is' vs 'some of ATA schools are' type comments. It's like if I went off on a WTF sport TKD tirade, or ITF north Korean attack etc. Broad brush, big strokes, not always truth.

Taekwon.

Hey Dave, glad to see you back on MT. I always appreciate your perspective. In my town of 200K people, all the ATA branches have the same core root. Sadly, that root doesn't uphold the best standard of the ATA. Thanks again for sharing from your experience.:asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A couple of items. First if they do the oringinal Chong-ahn forms, which I will have to do more research on, but I doubt it, then they can not copyright the form since they are not the original. Well I guess they can copyright it but it will not hold up in court since the forms predate their organization. Secondly, an ATA student can compete in non-ATA competitions, though it is not done often. ATA philosophy is to keep the money in the family.

Actually, I misquoted my friend: he said that they use the Songham forms and that he had learned the Chang Hon forms in the ITF. I posted this correction on the last page. Sorry about the confusion.

Daniel

 

[Dave Leverich]

Hi, Mr. Leverich. You know, 'Mister' used to be a title given in respect to someone not of the peerage. It's a perfectly acceptable and respectful way to refer to someone, and in my opinion in these days when everyone is a 'master' or a 'grandmaster', I'd just as soon go back to basics. In any case, I don't practice Mr. Lee's system, so I honestly don't see the need to call him anything else. I realize he's an important figure in your corner of the martial arts world, and I'm sure you give him every honor.

Sincerely,

DA

I hear you DA, sorry, it was late and at times I see things that aren't there. When I started, we had masters, and um, that's it. Mister/Master, no Senior/Chief/Grand/etc stuff.

I think an issue that comes up often is that a newly minted 1st Dan opens a school, after training 2-3 years. Imagine the lack of knowledge that could be there, heck I spent more time between degrees than some of them have training completely.

Miguk, I think there is a lot more comp outside the group, just people wearing plain doboks. There's a lot of stigma to fight against when that ATA badge is on your back.

I guess all I can hope is to be the best example that I can be.

 

[BrandonLucas]

The only info I have on the ATA is what I've seen, and what I've seen may not be correct for all other ATA schools. I've only had experience in visiting 2 other ATA dojangs, and they were both in the South GA area, so it very well could be an isolated thing.

But, that being said, what I've seen from the ATA orgs around here is more along the lines of movie star kicks and punches. The contact in sparring was minimal at best, and the forms were not drilled for correctness.

Several students from the dojang that I attend got together and visited 2 ATA dojangs in the area, so that's where I'm getting my info from...

I sparred 3 different blackbelts, and at the time, I had just received my 1st dan. Now, it should be noted that it took me 3 1/2 years to earn my 1st dan, and the guys I sparred and only been going about a year and a half...anywho, when I sparred the first blackbelt, I kicked him with about half-force with a side kick to the midsection, and was told that contact was frowned upon...and I was also told that if I were a "true" blackbelt, that I would know how to watch my power.

So, the other 2 matches for the day against the other 2 blackbelts consisted of shadowboxing. I couldn't even tell if I was really blocking anything that was thrown or not...

And the forms were horrible. I don't know their patterns, so I can't comment on whether they were performing the movements in the correct order, but the blackbelts were so sloppy. Often, when a knifehand block was performed, the wrist was relaxed, and the fingers were loose. If someone were to really block with that, it would shatter their arm. Their stances were terrible as well, and no correction was given from the instructor, but I'm not sure that they weren't corrected because they had "guests" in the dojang.

Anyway, the whole point of this is that this is the only experience I've had with ATA at all, and I sincerely hope that it's the exception to the other ATA dojangs out there. I mean no disrespect toward anyone by my post, but I honestly think that it's because of students that are like the "blackbelts" that I sparred that day that TKD gets such a bad rep.

I just wish there was a way to get rid of instructors who teach in this way. I know it has little to do with the affiliation with the ATA org, but instructors like this give the ATA a bad name.

 

[dancingalone]

There are some good ATA schools out there. I visited the Niblocks ATA school in Texas on a sparring night some time ago, just to watch. They had some athletic people going at it with a decent amount of contact. It was very much sport-type sparring however. Not my cup of tea but I would have no problem recommending them as a school for people to go to if they want a workout in a motivating and friendly atmosphere.

I myself train with head shots and I incorporate take downs at all levels of experience... It's just a matter of what you want out of your MA.

 

[HM2PAC]

I am presently in the ATA. It is rife with sloppy performance. They are honestly trying to change their appearance and are cracking down on Dojangs that have gotten sloppy. The nice thing is that the orders for change are coming from the top down.

At least in our area, Dojangs with sloppy students are not cutting it when testing for 1st Dan. The latest testing, only BB's from our school made it. BB candidates from the other 3 schools failed. These other schools have a reputation, according to our instructor, for sloppiness.

I am beginning to appreciate our instructors more each day. They recently made someone wait an extra 2 years before testing for BB. That is pretty much unheard of in the ATA, but our instructors will not test someone who is not ready.