ATA Forms Protected?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Huey! Good to see you here!! I assume you're the same Huey from another TKD site.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Another advantage to having copyrighted forms:

If some instructor has a disagreement with the ATA over whatever and leaves, he cannot open his own independent school, claim to be ATA, and teach ATA forms. You leave the ATA? You lose the right to teach their curriculum.
Problem with other organizations is that their forms and material aren't protected, So that if someone leaves an organization, there is nothing preventing him from opening up shop and teaching the material he learned regardless of whether he has permission.
In fact, a black belt student of one of our instructors did this and tried to teach our material without official permission. We had to threaten legal action since he would have used the organization's name for his own benefit to shut him down.

 

[BrandonLucas]

In my opinion, a copyright flies in the face of what martial arts is suppose to be. As a mass communication major, I had to take several law classes and most of them dealing with the subject of copyrights and intellectual property.
In America and Europe, there are several laws on the books to protect people, pretty much if you have been taught by certified ATA instructor or purchased material for ATA forms you are bestowed the rights to use that form, for practice or demos. But it doesn't give you the right to make money on the forms such as competitions that raise money or your teaching unless you have ATA certified permission.
Nothing has come up legally in US Courts with forms.
I had a law professor that said that copyrights does nothing more protect your share of the profits. Shouldn't we as martial artists be working on spreading the arts?
This is why in my opinion having federations and such hurt the arts more then help it. I study both ITF forms and WTF forms (Palgwes and yes I know they are the old school forms for WTF) as far as I know all the forms are not copy righted, if we have a group that copy rights everything then a merger and unfied Tae Kwon Do will never happen.

I agree. Anything that is designed to stop the spreading of knowledge of martial arts is not honorable in the least.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Another advantage to having copyrighted forms:

If some instructor has a disagreement with the ATA over whatever and leaves, he cannot open his own independent school, claim to be ATA, and teach ATA forms. You leave the ATA? You lose the right to teach their curriculum.
Problem with other organizations is that their forms and material aren't protected, So that if someone leaves an organization, there is nothing preventing him from opening up shop and teaching the material he learned regardless of whether he has permission.
In fact, a black belt student of one of our instructors did this and tried to teach our material without official permission. We had to threaten legal action since he would have used the organization's name for his own benefit to shut him down.

I can see how that would work, however, it only stops someone from opening up shop with affiliation to ATA. It doesn't stop the person from opening a school with no backing. In fact, I know of a school not far from here that is doing just that.

Just because someone wants to open a school without permission does not completely mean that they aren't ready to open a school or teach...think of Bruce Lee.

 

[Kwanjang]

A gentleman I know on TKDspace, whom I do respect, is an ATA instructor and has stated that the forms are indeed copyrighted. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him, that they use, "the original chang hon forms."

Daniel

It has been my understanding the ATA uses the Songham form Created By GM Hae Un Lee- I don't think they use the chang hon form any more in liue of the songham forms. I don't know if any of you fellow TKdist have sen the "songham" forms. I personally did not like them. However on a trip to visit my Aunt and Uncle in Little Rock AR. I stopped in for a visit to their world HQ's (After GM H.U.L passed away) They gave me a tour including a rare visit to his office and prsonal training area. It's ironic in 1980 when I started Moo Sul Kwan (the school I origionally joined)was a member of the ATA. at the time. Its a small world after all. :ultracool

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It has been my understanding the ATA uses the Songham form Created By GM Hae Un Lee- I don't think they use the chang hon form any more in liue of the songham forms. I don't know if any of you fellow TKdist have sen the "songham" forms.

Thanks for the correction!

I went back and looked at his old post. He indicated that when he started, he learned the Chang Hon forms and that the ATA uses the Songham forms.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

If some instructor has a disagreement with the ATA over whatever and leaves, he cannot open his own independent school, claim to be ATA, and teach ATA forms. You leave the ATA? You lose the right to teach their curriculum.
Problem with other organizations is that their forms and material aren't protected, So that if someone leaves an organization, there is nothing preventing him from opening up shop and teaching the material he learned regardless of whether he has permission.
In fact, a black belt student of one of our instructors did this and tried to teach our material without official permission. We had to threaten legal action since he would have used the organization's name for his own benefit to shut him down.

this troubles me.

Mind you, i called my instructor, and got permission to open a school, like a student should do. At the same time, If my instructor didnt consider me a good teacher, she shouldnt have promoted me to 2nd.

However, if i had to pay her 25% of my profit, like the ATA is reputed to do, and spend thousands of dollars to get a 'teachers license" like i KNOW the ATA does, i would have told her to pack sand and done it anyway.

My knowledge is MY knowledge, you cant take that away. Plus it is really un-enforceable anyway. The closest case law is for music. There, the standard is 10%

the new thing has to be 10% different from the old thing to be considered new.

On a 30 move kata. thats 3 moves. If i cant figure out 3 moves to change ona kata, and figure out a new name to call it, i shouldnt be taching anyway.

While I see Young Man's point, and to a degree I agree with it, in whole I cant agree.

 

[terryl965]

It's not necessarily the forms themselves that need to be protected legally from use by others. It's the entire body of teaching materials the ATA has produced (their books, dvds, handouts, teaching methodology, etc) that is valuable - I'm sure they've spent countless hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars conceptualizing and then producing it.

To me that stuff is way more valuable than the forms themselves, which are honestly just basics strung together to create a pre-designed floor pattern. Like many new forms, the ATA Songahm hyung have no bun seoh to them. You could get much the same benefits from practicing some difficult combinations.

Yea if you like to run a McDojo, sorry all the ATA schools here are like that.

 

[BrandonLucas]

this troubles me.

Mind you, i called my instructor, and got permission to open a school, like a student should do. At the same time, If my instructor didnt consider me a good teacher, she shouldnt have promoted me to 2nd.

However, if i had to pay her 25% of my profit, like the ATA is reputed to do, and spend thousands of dollars to get a 'teachers license" like i KNOW the ATA does, i would have told her to pack sand and done it anyway.

My knowledge is MY knowledge, you cant take that away. Plus it is really un-enforceable anyway. The closest case law is for music. There, the standard is 10%

the new thing has to be 10% different from the old thing to be considered new.

On a 30 move kata. thats 3 moves. If i cant figure out 3 moves to change ona kata, and figure out a new name to call it, i shouldnt be taching anyway.

While I see Young Man's point, and to a degree I agree with it, in whole I cant agree.

This better states where I stand with it.

I think it's more of a ploy on this particular issue to keep the ATA on the payroll.

 

[stone_dragone]

I'm not a current member of the ATA, but I was a member for about 4 years. Here's what I know about the ATA forms, copyrights and other ATA stuff...

From "The Way of Traditional Taekwondo, Volume A, Philosophy and Tradition" (the ATA's series of belt level manuals which include the basics, forms, philosophies, self-defense and one-steps for each belt level).

"In Songahm Taekwondo, the "philosophy" can be seen mostly through the poome-sae (forms). Each poome-sae (form) is, in itself the philosophy of Taekwondo expressing the principles, knowledge, action, thoughts, respect and courtesies of Songahm Taekwondo. Other Taekwondo styles say that the philosophy of Taekwondo is in their poome-sae (forms) also, but is it? the poome-sae (forms) are simple basics that give very little depth to the art. They do not demonstrate many chah-gi (kicks) (if any at all) nor do they have a consistent pattern that ties the poome-sae (forms) or "way" together. The poome-sae of other styles are simple and do not flow from one to the other nor are they designed with the techniques or technical level of that particular rank in mind."

...

"In 1968, General Choi had a meeting with then MAster Haeng Ung Lee. Master Lee was, at the time, teaching the PyeongAhn poome-sae (forms) (pre-Taekwondo, Japanese based forms) to his organizationof followers. General Choi taught Master Lee the first 16 Cheon-jee poone-sae (forms) (also known as the Chahng-hun system) in only four days and three nights...."

...

"The copyrighted Songahm poome-sae (forms) have been arranged as a system to gradually increase the student's skill, develop technial balance equally on teh left and right side of the body, train muscles, and to develop students from the beginner level through the rank of Dae Sah-boo Nim (Grand Master). this is why each Songahm poomse-sae (form) does not repeat most techniques more than twice and also why every technique which is done with a right arm/leg is also repeated with the left arm/leg."

...

"Each rank has its own unique form designed specifically fofr the techniques taught at that rank level. The poome-sae (form) is part of a complete system of teaching the Songahm Taekwondo student."

Similar to the Universal Pattern in American Kenpo, the ATA has a pattern that they use as a teaching tool called the Songahm star. It is basically lines on the cardinal directions and intermediate directions crossing at the center and connectors drawn along the outside. Form in the series (Songahm, In Wha, Choong Jung, Shim Jun, Jung Yul, Chung San, Sok Bong, Chung Hae and Jhang Soo) trace their foot work pattern (embusen in japanese, I have no ide what it is in korean) along the lines and shapes within the Star without any being duplicated (i.e. following the rectangle formed on the right side, next form follows the right rectangle, next follows the top rectangle, etc).

The forms, the Songahm star, and the instructor certification program were all copyrighted as a way to ensure that all people who were teaching the ATA curriculum were pointed in the same direction and to provide some level of quality control.

I can't pretend that I am a supporter of the ATA any more, but I can say that, in their defense, they provide a very well structured curriculum from white belt all the way through the senior black belt ranks. They also are pretty uniform in how they teach things across the board...i.e every green belt knows the same forms as every other green belt and learned them with the same techniques and almost no variation.

I firmly believe that the ATA today is not what the founder, H.U. Lee, had envisioned. Although he wanted to grow a large organization designed to uniformly spread his art over the world, I highly doubt that he wanted his name to be attached to something that has become synonomous with 5-year old black belts and karate-day-care centers.

 

[Baby_Huey]

Huey! Good to see you here!! I assume you're the same Huey from another TKD site.

Daniel

Yes sir, the one and the same, I'm on a couple of sites now just don't post regular as I do the site you are talking about.

 

[terryl965]

Question if they are copywritten then why are they all over youtube would that not be infringment or something.:erg:

 

[MBuzzy]

Question if they are copywritten then why are they all over youtube would that not be infringment or something.:erg:

It seems to me that their proliferation would be much more tightly controlled if it were an issue. Although, if people are not making a profit off of it, I don't suppose that there would be a basis for a court case.

 

[dancingalone]

They also are pretty uniform in how they teach things across the board...i.e every green belt knows the same forms as every other green belt and learned them with the same techniques and almost no variation.

That may have been true before the advent of "block" teaching. Given that everyone is the same belt band learns the same form at the same time under block teaching, we could very well have a white belt that knows the yellow belt form, but not the white or orange belt form. I'm obviously not a fan of block teaching.

I firmly believe that the ATA today is not what the founder, H.U. Lee, had envisioned. Although he wanted to grow a large organization designed to uniformly spread his art over the world, I highly doubt that he wanted his name to be attached to something that has become synonomous with 5-year old black belts and karate-day-care centers.

Mr. Lee was a great promoter of TKD, and I greatly respect him for his contributions to the art. That said, he was regarded as one of the more commercial TKD instructors in America by both his peers and seniors.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes sir, the one and the same, I'm on a couple of sites now just don't post regular as I do the site you are talking about.

Good to see you here!

Daniel

 

[milewskiw]

While it is true that many ATA schools block in the way mentioned (all students learn one form) not all do this, as each school is independently licensed each school may choose how to teach. We do not block in this way, but follow GM Lee's vision and teach the forms as he envisioned.

As far as tournaments go, I simply ask you to attend one and see for yourself the respect, courtesy and sportsmanship, I never saw this kind of attitude in any open tournament.

 

[IcemanSK]

One of my students is a former ATA student. She told me that they never did forms at her old school. In my town, you can go to several TKD schools (ATA, KKW that I know of) & never be taught a form of any kind.

Saves a lot of time on belt test day.:mst:

 

[terryl965]

One of my students is a former ATA student. She told me that they never did forms at her old school. In my town, you can go to several TKD schools (ATA, KKW that I know of) & never be taught a form of any kind.

Saves a lot of time on belt test day.:mst:

How is that even possible no poomsae? I mean what are they teaching, oh just the sport no art, Got it.

 

[Dave Leverich]

I've heard of schools that don't teach forms to the 'basic' members, but it seems like crap to me as well.

As far as copyright, the forms are copyright as a combination of movements (similar to a dance routine yes). Terry (you'd asked why not kicks and punches) it's like copyrighting note A and C vs copyrighting the progression that is say 'Fortunate Son'.

I started doing the Chang Hon forms and honestly, the Songahm forms are a better progression of difficulty, but that's my view after doing both. Understand that the forms were created by people who'd done the CH forms for years upon years, the ATA at that time had been the NBG of the ITF in the US. When GM Kang left and GM Lee (at that time simply referred to as Master Lee) became KJN, things did change, but then Choi had approached Lee, not Kang even though Kang was KJN. Oh to be a fly on the wall.

Terry - "But with the ATA iit ia all about money.". Depends on the person, but that's the same with any given organization. If that was the case, I'd be rich, and teaching in a McDojahng making my bazillions.

Brandon - The closed tournaments ensure trained judging, also accountability from competitors as their actions are directly tied to their instructor and school, all accountable to the region and org. Rules are written, hard, steadfast, and all judges and competitors are up to date on them as well as accountable. But yeah, I've always loved the usual 'open' tournaments as well for the diversity and flavor. I have found that respect is tenfold at an ATA tournament vs any given open tournament. The variety of talent is sometimes stagnant, although travellers help that at times.

Twin fist - 25% of profit. As I don't run a school, I'm not privy to that. Thousands of dollars for a 'teachers license' though, I know to be untrue as my certification was a few hundred. I've been in the ATA since 1985, my latest certification was 2005.

Terry - Ouch if all the ATA schools in your area are like that. On forms being on Youtube etc, perhaps a performance is considered different than the works? Honestly, no idea.

dancingalone - Rotational curriculum/block teaching, no arguments here. Calling H.U. Lee 'Mr' Lee seems somewhat of an affront to him as he was granted 10th dan post-humously by a panel of the worlds top TKD masters.

I've seen a lot of things change in the last 23+ years. The forms (from CH to Songahm), sparring gear (like needing anything other than a cup/mouthpiece), focus (from 18-30 males to 'family') etc etc. But, I've seen those same changes throughout the martial arts in the States.

If you need to know more about 'me', I'd say ask Wade if he's still around (as he'd fought in the same rings), maybe Iceman as he and I've shared many a discussion on the various TKD forums.

I guess the only thing that made me respond was the 'ATA is' vs 'some of ATA schools are' type comments. It's like if I went off on a WTF sport TKD tirade, or ITF north Korean attack etc. Broad brush, big strokes, not always truth.

Taekwon.

 

[terryl965]

Thank you David for that history about the ATA, I remember when they was a great org. back some twenty years ago. I hope you can make a big diference in the view of TKD withen the ATA.