ATA Forms Protected?

[ArmorOfGod]

I read on a thread that ATA forms are copyrighted.
Is this true? If it is, is it done to keep other schools from using the forms?
Also, what other things are protected? If one got an ATA black belt, would the black belt be "revoked" if they started their own school that was not in the ATA chain?

AoG

 

[MBuzzy]

Actually, I've been doing a bit of research on this. I can't find the actual cases that have been brought to court regarding it, but I've spoken to a few lawyers out of my own curiosity. A martial arts form cannot be copyrighted....my understanding is that it is like a dance, simply a series of movements put together in a coordinated way. So if I understand correctly, you can no more copyright a form than you can the act of walking.

Now....if the organization created them itself, it may be able to defend against others making a profit from them, based on the laws of intellectual property, but I think that is as far as you can go.

If anyone knows of any actually court cases, I'd love to know about them!

 

[arnisador]

They've been trying to copyright (trademark?) things like yoga...I wouldn't rule it out. See this post and this.

 

[MBuzzy]

I have heard that there are court precedents, but I've never seen them or heard of the actually case names. Until it is brought to a high enough court to create a precedent, there really won't be a standard. Now, it may already be out there....I just haven't been able to find it.

 

[terryl965]

If you can copyright fotms then whu not kicks and punches

 

[jks9199]

You might actually be able to cover a form under copyright; it's a specific arrangement of moves, just as a song or book is a specific arrangement of words.

But I think you'd have to show that the form was original to the group trying to copyright it. And, for many martial arts, including TKD, that would be an uphill battle.

 

[MBuzzy]

If you can copyright forms then why not kicks and punches

...or stances, or a fist, or breathing.....

honestly, I find the idea of copyrighting a form a bit silly. Though, I do recognize the need to protect intellectual property. If one organization creates a form, I can see the need to keep others from capitalizing on it and making a profit from their work. It is a fine balance though. I can see the legal perspective of viewing forms in the same light as dance movements, which also can't be copyrighted.

Plus....can you imagine enforcing such a copyright??? It is relatively simple to enforce the publishing or making a profit off of it, but you simply can't keep people from doing it. Until, of course, big brother installs cameras in every corner of the country.

 

[granfire]

I do believe you can actually copyright forms.

I have been told an organization tried to claim copyright infringment on the traditional forms and lost - subsequently changed the forms around.

BUT, I am a mere grasshopper could not confirm it....

 

[YoungMan]

I believe the ATA forms are indeed protected. Even if you can't copyright separate techniques, you can probably copyright forms that put together these techniques in ways unique to an organization and style. You can't copyright notes in a song, but you can copyright chord progressions and lyrics that people recognize as a song.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

To my knowledge the ATA forms are copyrighted as a specific set of movements in a pattern unique to ATA.

A bigger question is if you are not ATA why would you want to use them?

In other words create your own forms.

 

[BrandonLucas]

To my knowledge the ATA forms are copyrighted as a specific set of movements in a pattern unique to ATA.

A bigger question is if you are not ATA why would you want to use them?

In other words create your own forms.

I agree with you. I would not want to use the ATA forms if I were no longer affiliated with them.

I think the bigger question should by why are they copyrighted?

I understand that instructors need to make a profit from teaching so that they can continue to teach. I also understand the desire to make money. But I also understand that a martial art is not going to grow unless you have the ability to teach it.

Not everything should be about money.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I agree with you. I would not want to use the ATA forms if I were no longer affiliated with them.

I think the bigger question should by why are they copyrighted?

Not everything should be about money.

Absolutely and I could not agree more!

 

[terryl965]

I agree with you. I would not want to use the ATA forms if I were no longer affiliated with them.

I think the bigger question should by why are they copyrighted?

I understand that instructors need to make a profit from teaching so that they can continue to teach. I also understand the desire to make money. But I also understand that a martial art is not going to grow unless you have the ability to teach it.

Not everything should be about money.

But with the ATA iit ia all about money.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A gentleman I know on TKDspace, whom I do respect, is an ATA instructor and has stated that the forms are indeed copyrighted. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him, that they use, "the original chang hon forms." I also know that ATA competitions are ATA only. Not sure if ATA practitioners are forbidden from entering non ATA competition, but ATA competitions are not open to non members.

I know of no lawsuits involving the ATA forms. Chances are that there aren't any; most people opening a school do so within whatever organization they're already associated with and use the forms appropriate to it rather than trying to raid another organization's forms.

The sort of internalizing of tournaments and forms and such has both potential benefits and drawbacks.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

A gentleman I know on TKDspace, whom I do respect, is an ATA instructor and has stated that the forms are indeed copyrighted. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him, that they use, "the original chang hon forms." I also know that ATA competitions are ATA only. Not sure if ATA practitioners are forbidden from entering non ATA competition, but ATA competitions are not open to non members.

I know of no lawsuits involving the ATA forms. Chances are that there aren't any; most people opening a school do so within whatever organization they're already associated with and use the forms appropriate to it rather than trying to raid another organization's forms.

The sort of internalizing of tournaments and forms and such has both potential benefits and drawbacks.

Daniel

The problem is that there should be no reason to copyright a form, unless you expect to be paid for the forms in question.

Unfortunately, it seems that the organization is more about making money than actually teaching the martial art.

I'm not sure exactly what the benefit would be to having a completely closed tournement all the time, though. Hopefully, there are some ATA members that clear this up on here.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The problem is that there should be no reason to copyright a form, unless you expect to be paid for the forms in question.

Unfortunately, it seems that the organization is more about making money than actually teaching the martial art.

I'm not sure exactly what the benefit would be to having a completely closed tournement all the time, though. Hopefully, there are some ATA members that clear this up on here.

Not an ATA member, but I think I can answer the question to an extent.

The biggest benefit to a closed circuit is that the participants can be regulated and sactioned more easily, and of course, there's no need to worry about whether or not all participants are familiar wit the rules. It also keeps all members competing only in ATA tournaments, so any entry fees that a competition minded student pays all stay in house.

The obvious drawback is a limited pool of talent. Of course, the counter argument could be made that the NFL, NBA, and MLB also run closed tournaments.

Regarding copyrights, wanting to make money is not the only reason to copyright something. Simply not wanting others to use what you or your organization have developed is a perfectly legitamate reason. I think that the main reason is to keep as much unique to their organization as possible, and while they don't make money from the forms, keeping it protected allows them to say, "you can't get these anywhere else."

I'd also like to hear from some ATA members. We can speculate about the organization to such an extent that it seems like fact, but without an actual ATA member here, its mostly just speculation. If nothing else, a member would keep the conversation more ballanced.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

It's not necessarily the forms themselves that need to be protected legally from use by others. It's the entire body of teaching materials the ATA has produced (their books, dvds, handouts, teaching methodology, etc) that is valuable - I'm sure they've spent countless hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars conceptualizing and then producing it.

To me that stuff is way more valuable than the forms themselves, which are honestly just basics strung together to create a pre-designed floor pattern. Like many new forms, the ATA Songahm hyung have no bun seoh to them. You could get much the same benefits from practicing some difficult combinations.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very good observation, Dancing. And in truth, I can't fault any organization for protecting the material that provides them with their lifeblood.

Daniel

 

[MBuzzy]

Well, do the forms appear regularly...or ever...with the copyright symbol? ©

If someone had gone to the trouble and expense to register something, it seems like they would enforce that. It is really the only way for others to know that something is protected.

 

[Baby_Huey]

In my opinion, a copyright flies in the face of what martial arts is suppose to be. As a mass communication major, I had to take several law classes and most of them dealing with the subject of copyrights and intellectual property.
In America and Europe, there are several laws on the books to protect people, pretty much if you have been taught by certified ATA instructor or purchased material for ATA forms you are bestowed the rights to use that form, for practice or demos. But it doesn't give you the right to make money on the forms such as competitions that raise money or your teaching unless you have ATA certified permission.
Nothing has come up legally in US Courts with forms.
I had a law professor that said that copyrights does nothing more protect your share of the profits. Shouldn't we as martial artists be working on spreading the arts?
This is why in my opinion having federations and such hurt the arts more then help it. I study both ITF forms and WTF forms (Palgwes and yes I know they are the old school forms for WTF) as far as I know all the forms are not copy righted, if we have a group that copy rights everything then a merger and unfied Tae Kwon Do will never happen.