Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

gpseymour said:
Even for folks who need it, there is sometimes no gait deficit. Before I had my foot surgery, I looked like I was walking normally (I learned later that I wasn't, but it wasn't something you could see) unless I was in pain. I always carried a cane when traveling, because I never knew when it would be needed. So I was often walking with a cane I didn't need at that moment.
Click to expand...
Sorry, your quote got sucked into my other reply.
 
Alan0354 said:
I don't know this guy, but that's good information, I should know that, but never think this deep. When I said I put my feet on the chair to do weighted pushups, It's really not like incline press. I use my dumbbell to put space between my body and the ground because I need space for the weighted jackets. The jacket will rest on the ground if I don't have the dumbbells when I lower my body in every pushup. This is a video I did a long time ago with only one jacket of about 45lbs.

Notice the chair mostly compensate for the extra height of the dumbbell I hold onto.

I since add a second jacket and split 40lbs on the big jacket and 20lbs in the smaller thinner jacket and I wear the thinner first and the thick one on top. The video was make almost 2 years ago at the very beginning of the shutdown.

At home, I don't have a way to do decline press. I do body weight dip. I am 175lbs, so it's not exactly light weight:(. I could wear the 20lbs jacket, but I have to watch out my elbow. I can feel my elbow is at the limit. I used to be able to hang a 45lbs plate 10 years ago to do the dip. I just do 3 sets of 15 body weight dip now a days.

There are definitely limits on working out at home, It's not about buying equipment, it's about not making the family room looking like a gym. The looks for the house is important too. I am thinking about adding a third car garage and use it as a gym. Then I can get a cage with a bench. Now, if I want to exercise the lower pecks, I have to use this kind of twist bars:
https://www.amazon.com/GETUPP-Practical-Shoulder-Exercise-Exerciser/dp/B087F2JBN2/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=chest+exercise+bar&qid=1636176456&qsid=144-4670265-6726520&sr=8-6&sres=B01M1B5QGD,B087F2JBN2,B075NXJR4P,B07MT36F46,B086ZDVVG4,B0065RBOWK,B087G723SR,B08L3JTVHR,B087YKM6KS,B092W21N51,B0895PVDT1,B08FFKRVRY,B08SC64K6N,B093D1C1QX,B00VI8W5FQ,B01L7791PY,B08JTWB39S,B09G9SSF5Q,B08ZN4XNNF,B08QN1FL7N

I have 30lbs, 40lbs and 50lbs bars already. I stopped doing this a few months ago as I got lazy. But after watching your video, That's about the only way to work the lower pecks.

I do pulldown with a lot of elastic bands, those elastic bands are very good, it gets very strong towards the end of the stretch. I just loop them around the chinup bar and pull down sitting on a low stepping stool. That seems to work the pecks also.

As I get older, my left shoulder started to make popping sound when I push the shoulder/deltoid. I used to do 10reps 25lbs dumbbell lateral raise, but I have to lower the weight as it pops on every move and discomfort later on. I have to lower to 17.5lbs each hand and just do 15 to 20 reps sets. This is part of the reason to use two weight jacket, I have to lift the jacket overhead to wear and I have to lift the jacket with one hand and use the other hand to move everything in place. My best military press is 50lbs each hand for 10 reps, I cannot lift and hold 60lbs jacket with one hand over my head. So I have to split into 40:20.

I use elastic bands to do incline press, but again, the left shoulder start popping so I have to keep the resistance down.

Since I added the stick fight, my weekly exercise is getting very long, a little over 7 hours a week, which is almost like 1 1/2hrs a day 5 days a week. It takes too much time to drive to the gym for weights and MA at home. Not only that, I talk a lot in the gym also. I went to a gym that was formerly Gold's Gym which is a heavy duty gym, people are serious people, lots of muscles and push heavy weights. Like you almost can count on people pushing 225lbs bench as starter. I want to go to those gym to keep myself humble, not going to those yuppie gym where benching 135lbs is good already. But you'd be surprised those musclemen also exercise their jaw muscle a lot too. We talk, we laugh!!! I usually spent 1hr working out, then 1/2hr doing jaw exercise!!! I cannot afford this after adding the stick fight regiment. I am stuck at home doing everything for now.

Too bad we all have to get old. Just less than 10 years ago, I could do 5 to 6reps 225lbs bench, before I quit last year, I could only do 185lbs.

You ever try close hands pushups? That is the index fingers and thumbs of both hands touching each other and do pushups. This concentrates the stress on triceps, not the chest. That's part of my triceps exercise. I do 3 sets of 20 every Friday. then I do 30lbs dumbbell kick back also. ( sad I used to do 35lbs easily, but too much stress on the elbows now).
Click to expand...
I see no need to use extra weight anymore on push ups as you have issues with joints. I honestly think you´ll get much better results doing them slowly and with better form. I used to do weighted dips but no longer use a weight belt. I think a Good TRI SET works well..
Unweighted dips max reps
push ups on floor (I always used push up bars but two thick books will work)
DB flyes / if need be can also be done on floor (safer if alone and controls the range of motion/your shoulder)

so as you know Alan a TRI SET is done non stop one exercise after the other which is demanding and trust me you´ll not need weight vests. I would not do that push up exercise you´re doing as you lack stability/strength in your shoulder.
Unless you are a Bodybuilding posing on a stage then i see no need to incline press. Military press neither. Side laterals are enough with Barbell or Dumbbell shrugs. I think you need some TRAP training too. Strong traps really will help with overall stability in your shoulder Girdle.

I only do Flat Barbell press for chest now(my bench is good but no decline option) , Better would be DECLINE PRESS. If you can only do one exercise Alan get a good bench that also declines, A power rack or half rack, a good Barbell and that´s it. DECLINE works the whole chest. EVERYTHING and it is much, much kinder to your shoulders. That´s all you need. Honestly.
Guys like us do not need all the exercises a Pro would do. no need at all. DECLINES contract the whole pecs.
Lots of studies out there proving it but look also at DORIAN YATES Multi Mr O he said, DECLINES better than flat or incline and less stress on joints, full range to work the pecs.

Even a FLAT bench press or push up hits the upper area too. It´s like when guys say .."Yeah I´m building a Peak on my Biceps" utter rubbish. regardless what curl you do it will all contract. A so called peak is Genetic.

One last point make sure you train back too. Rear bent over laterals will help and chins are not a must either if you can´t do them. You can of course do "Band Assisted" chins & they work well. It´s a bit like the assisted machine you kneel on in the gym. Lots of videos out there showing it.
BB or DB rows
Shrugs (Traps)
rear Delt flys (rear delts upper back
A lower back exercise for erectors. deadlifts(Romanian ) if you can or Hypers on a 45% Bench

I also like Pullovers but maybe not good for your shoulders.
 
Last edited:
Just throw this one in there. A reverse Grip press for upper chest. Not one i like but "one man´s meat is another man`s poision"

Reverse-Grip Bench Press Master Class

Perfect your technique on the reverse-grip bench press to maximize upper chest development.
www.jimstoppani.com www.jimstoppani.com

Another one you can do with your bands or two Dumbbells, coming up from a low position. work your upper areas and better for shoulders. I would go with this one if i was you with a DECLINE press.
 
Hanzou said:
This was a question asked in my other thread and I thought it warranted its own thread. There is a slight disdain for sports and competition among traditionalists within the martial arts. It even pops up in my style Brazilian Jiujitsu, despite the fact that what brought Bjj to prominence was sport and competition. There is a group of people within Bjj who dislike what competition has done to the art, and like to hammer in the idea that sport dilutes the self defense aspect of the art.

While there is some merit to that point, there is another inescapable fact; Competition and sport (particularly MMA) have kept Bjj "honest" in that it forces the style to never drift too far into having its own head up its ****. For example, after Bjj exploded on the scene via the early UFCs, numerous other grappling systems emerged to try to supplant it as the main grappling art of the emerging sport. At first, Bjj exponents (mainly the Gracies) pushed a sort of purity message and refused to embrace other grappling styles, saying that their system of grappling was superior to all others. However, after the Gracies got beat by grapplers who had cross-trained in Bjj, other Bjj schools embraced other grappling forms. Over two decades later, it would be hard to argue that Bjj isn't an overall better martial art than it was when it first exploded on the scene in the 1990s.

Beyond general MA improvement, it would be a bit silly to believe that your average MA hobbyist is a better martial artist than a professional fighter. Again, when I look into my own martial art, I look at guys like Ryan Gordon, Keenan Cornelius, JT Torres, Marcelo Garcia, Ryan Hall, etc. and recognize that they would absolutely destroy me. There are videos of competitive Bjj players who roll against entire schools and submit students in that school within a matter of minutes if not seconds. Even the black belt instructors are easily dealt with, and considering that I would struggle with the average Bjj black belt, the fact that these people are several magnitudes better than them is something to think about.

Which brings us back to the general question; Are competitive sport martial artists superior to non competitive martial artists? I simply can't see how they aren't. Beyond grappling, look at the various showcases of traditional Chinese martial artists going up against MMA and sport fighters. Universally, the traditional martial artists lose, and many of the people they lose to aren't even professional fighters. Pushing this up a notch, if Jon Jones or Khabib walked into your dojo, could your instructor beat them in a fight? Bringing this down a notch would your traditional karate instructor be able to stand toe to toe against an amateur boxer? These are questions to consider because we continue to run across people who say that since their style includes wrist locks, throws, kicks, and kata, they have an advantage over a boxer because "the boxer only has punches".

I would argue that the boxer has more than punches. They have conditioning, durability, endurance, and fighting experience.

Anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts.
Click to expand...
Frankly non sport are better but it always depends like KunTao isn't a sport MA bc it can be insanely brutal. But when i did wrestling my old man taught me Jiu jitsu and said to do those bc he said it doesn't matter who has more points it matters who's better so me as the child i was thought eh sure and got disqualified alot but you can still do some nasty **** with sport MA
 
KunTaoKid said:
Frankly non sport are better but it always depends like KunTao isn't a sport MA bc it can be insanely brutal. But when i did wrestling my old man taught me Jiu jitsu and said to do those bc he said it doesn't matter who has more points it matters who's better so me as the child i was thought eh sure and got disqualified alot but you can still do some nasty **** with sport MA
Click to expand...

Brutal isn't as effective as people think it is.
 
caped crusader said:
I see no need to use extra weight anymore on push ups as you have issues with joints. I honestly think you´ll get much better results doing them slowly and with better form. I used to do weighted dips but no longer use a weight belt. I think a Good TRI SET works well..
Unweighted dips max reps
push ups on floor (I always used push up bars but two thick books will work)
DB flyes / if need be can also be done on floor (safer if alone and controls the range of motion/your shoulder)

so as you know Alan a TRI SET is done non stop one exercise after the other which is demanding and trust me you´ll not need weight vests. I would not do that push up exercise you´re doing as you lack stability/strength in your shoulder.
Unless you are a Bodybuilding posing on a stage then i see no need to incline press. Military press neither. Side laterals are enough with Barbell or Dumbbell shrugs. I think you need some TRAP training too. Strong traps really will help with overall stability in your shoulder Girdle.

I only do Flat Barbell press for chest now(my bench is good but no decline option) , Better would be DECLINE PRESS. If you can only do one exercise Alan get a good bench that also declines, A power rack or half rack, a good Barbell and that´s it. DECLINE works the whole chest. EVERYTHING and it is much, much kinder to your shoulders. That´s all you need. Honestly.
Guys like us do not need all the exercises a Pro would do. no need at all. DECLINES contract the whole pecs.
Lots of studies out there proving it but look also at DORIAN YATES Multi Mr O he said, DECLINES better than flat or incline and less stress on joints, full range to work the pecs.

Even a FLAT bench press or push up hits the upper area too. It´s like when guys say .."Yeah I´m building a Peak on my Biceps" utter rubbish. regardless what curl you do it will all contract. A so called peak is Genetic.

One last point make sure you train back too. Rear bent over laterals will help and chins are not a must either if you can´t do them. You can of course do "Band Assisted" chins & they work well. It´s a bit like the assisted machine you kneel on in the gym. Lots of videos out there showing it.
BB or DB rows
Shrugs (Traps)
rear Delt flys (rear delts upper back
A lower back exercise for erectors. deadlifts(Romanian ) if you can or Hypers on a 45% Bench

I also like Pullovers but maybe not good for your shoulders.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestions.

Decline press is hard doing at home without the bench. I have to find some ways to do this.

Do you have suggestion to improve the stability of my left shoulder, it is really the limiting factor for me.

I want to do more than just exercise for health, not for body building, but if I can get more muscle, I would like that. That's why I use weighted jacket. I still want to push my body.
 
Alan0354 said:
Thanks for the suggestions.

Decline press is hard doing at home without the bench. I have to find some ways to do this.

Do you have suggestion to improve the stability of my left shoulder, it is really the limiting factor for me.

I want to do more than just exercise for health, not for body building, but if I can get more muscle, I would like that. That's why I use weighted jacket. I still want to push my body.
Click to expand...
What will help stabilize it depends which muscles are weak. Buy some therapy bands, and work the shoulder in all 3 directions (ignoring "down").
 
Alan0354 said:
Decline press is hard doing at home without the bench. I have to find some ways to do this.
Click to expand...
can use Dumbbells and even one arm presses. might be a good option to concentrate on each side as you have one weak side which will probably impair your Barbell presses.

Alan0354 said:
Do you have suggestion to improve the stability of my left shoulder, it is really the limiting factor for me.
Click to expand...
gpseymour said:
work the shoulder in all 3 directions
Click to expand...
i would agree with gpseymour . what i like to do is a stretch with a band for shoulder flexibility bringing the band/hands over my head. I think you need to get your shoulder checked out by a physio this would be the best option. I train only front,side,rear laterals for Delts now and have no problem. It can be muscle dysbalance this can cause pain/weakness too. I actually had this years ago as my chest was more dominant. so i concentrated on upper back more. It helped.
At a guess i think you have weak rear delts and upper back. affects shoulder posture too.
But....at the end of the Day only a Physio/sport Doctor can tell you who has examined your shoulder.
 
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caped crusader said:
can use Dumbbells and even one arm presses. might be a good option to concentrate on each side as you have one weak side which will probably impair your Barbell presses.



i would agree with gpseymour . what i like to do is a stretch with a band for shoulder flexibility bringing the band/hands over my head. I think you need to get your shoulder checked out by a physio this would be the best option. I train only front,side,rear laterals for Delts now and have no problem. It can be muscle dysbalance this can cause pain/weakness too. I actually had this years ago as my chest was more dominant. so i concentrated on upper back more. It helped.
At a guess i think you have weak rear delts and upper back. affects shoulder posture too.
But....at the end of the Day only a Physio/sport Doctor can tell you who has examined your shoulder.
Click to expand...
Pretty much this. You can take the scatter-gun approach and do basic exercises in all 3 directions for your shoulder, which will probably help (weakest muscles will usually develop faster), but knowing what's weak, injured, or in need of stretching will let you make progress more efficiently.
 
gpseymour said:
Pretty much this. You can take the scatter-gun approach and do basic exercises in all 3 directions for your shoulder, which will probably help (weakest muscles will usually develop faster), but knowing what's weak, injured, or in need of stretching will let you make progress more efficiently.
Click to expand...
yeah needs to see a Doctor/physio. no way can anyone here say for sure.
an ultrasound scan or CT scan.
 
caped crusader said:
being blind is not a joke mate. maybe you think it is but i find your comment very distasteful to say the least.
makes we wonder what you´re like at your training.
Click to expand...
FWIW, I did not at all take @Wing Woo Gar 's comment that way. Rather an indirect way to infer a blind guy could see how bad the technique was. Simply trying to make a strong point. In no way was it a slap against blind people.

For example, if a white guy and a black guy are standing in the same room in another location and someone has to go get him so he can save the world, what is the strongest descriptor you could use to describe the black guy so they know who to get? Too often people get caught up in walking around on egg shells and completely forget that common sense that is right in front of them.
 
dvcochran said:
Too often people get caught up in walking around on egg shells and completely forget that common sense that is right in front of them.
Click to expand...
dvcochran said:
white guy and a black guy
Click to expand...
maybe take your own advice this has nothing to do with black or white people. It was never mentioned by me at any time. Just to be clear on this and that you understand, blindness is a condition that can affect any race or creed.
Hope this helps
 
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